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Author Topic: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?  (Read 4484 times)

Offline jccc

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water will heat up right? electrons impact water, water molecules vibrate faster and heat up.

how electron impact/interact water? electrons hit oxygen or hydrogen? hit electrons? hit orbitals?

why there is no electron hitting nucleus? isn't nucleus attracting electrons?

my head hurts, science is not fun, i should study auto repair next life.


 

Offline evan_au

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #1 on: 07/06/2015 08:40:36 »
Quote from: jccc
If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
There is a slight contradiction in the question.
  • Electrons are so light that if they approach any charged particle, including a proton or an electron (or an atom, which contains both), the electron will change direction and radiate their energy away in the form of photons. The electrons are almost instantly halted. This is called Bremsstrahlung radiation.
  • For this reason, electron beams only work in a hard vacuum, containing no solids, liquids or gases in the electron path.
  • However, liquid water cannot exist in a vacuum - it evaporates away to a gas.
  • Since any gas is immediately pumped out of a vacuum chamber, the electrons will not encounter any liquid water. 

It is conceivable that electron beam could be aimed at water ice at very low temperatures. In addition to the Bremsstrahlung radiation, there will be a brief period where the velocity of the electrons exceeds the velocity of light in ice. For this brief period, the electrons will additionally lose energy due to Cerenkov radiation.

So the answer does not really depend on what atom or charged particle it comes near - the electrons will quickly come to a halt, heating up the target locally.

 

Offline jccc

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #2 on: 07/06/2015 10:10:47 »
how about arc discharge? how about electron in x-ray tube?

what the electron hit/impact? target metal atoms? electrons or protons? or empty space in atoms?

electron in ice has ftl speed? is it possible? einstein agree?

Thanks!
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #3 on: 07/06/2015 12:02:41 »
Quote from: jccc
how about electron in x-ray tube?
The target in an X-Ray tube is an alloy of metals like tungsten, with a very highly charged positive nucleus.
There is a lot of energy involved in an electron dropping into an inner orbital of a tungsten atom. By adjusting the operating voltage of the tube, it can produce a narrow-band line spectrum, in addition to the broad spectrum of bremmstrahlung.

Note that the electron does not actually embed itself in the nucleus, it remains in an orbital around the nucleus.

Quote
electron in ice has ftl speed?
When we talk about "c", we talk about "the speed of light in a vacuum". Einstein pointed out that it would take an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a massive object past "c" (although that hasn't stopped physicists looking for a loophole to this rule).

However, light travels at a lower speed than "c" through transparent materials. So it is possible to accelerate a massive object to a speed which is less than "c", but still greater than the speed of light in a transparent material.

This is the principle used in the ice cube neutrino detector in the Antarctic.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #4 on: 07/06/2015 12:42:00 »
It is possible to have an electron beam hit water.
You just need a thin "window" between the vacuum chamber where the electrons are produced and accelerated and the water.
The electrons don't slow down much with a thin window.

Broadly speaking, this happens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiolysis#Water_decomposition
 

Offline jccc

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #5 on: 07/06/2015 13:27:12 »
exactly what is hit/impact by the electron beam?

electron in the target atoms? empty space in the target atoms?

no electrons even hit nucleus in reality, why?

when the electron halt, is it stop moving? is it circling? is it rest on nucleus? where the electrons go?
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #6 on: 07/06/2015 15:21:16 »
Lot of things happen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auger_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremsstrahlung

eventually, the electrons leak back to the positive terminal of the power supply.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #7 on: 07/06/2015 16:02:15 »
is anything more positive than nucleus?

why electrons not leak into nucleus?

remember you asked me why i think science is so wrong after 19 century?

cus i think atomic structure and qm are very questionable.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #8 on: 07/06/2015 16:48:33 »
The electrons go past the nuclei (in almost all cases) simply because they are travelling so fast.
I think it's strange that you say that you think science is wrong when you don't understand it.

It's like me saying a Chinese poem is bad even though I don't speak a word of Chinese.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #9 on: 07/06/2015 17:03:04 »
traveling so fast? electrons move in copper wire few cm per second, is that speed enough to cancel nucleus attraction force?

if you name wine water, when you drink it will you get drunk?
 

Offline jccc

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #10 on: 07/06/2015 17:09:51 »
The electrons go past the nuclei (in almost all cases) simply because they are travelling so fast.
I think it's strange that you say that you think science is wrong when you don't understand it.

It's like me saying a Chinese poem is bad even though I don't speak a word of Chinese.

if you understand atomic structure, why is my questions not answered in English?
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #11 on: 07/06/2015 20:01:40 »
traveling so fast? electrons move in copper wire few cm per second, is that speed enough to cancel nucleus attraction force?

Do not confuse the current in a wire with the simple motion of electrons in the wire. The current is a measure of the *average* velocity of the electrons in the wire. Just like wind is the average velocity of molecules in the air--the molecules are moving with an average speed of about 100 meters per second, but in all random directions, so the average velocity is usually fairly close to 0 (a wind of 10 meters per second is quite strong).

NOTE: velocity is like speed, but with direction included, so the average velocity of two cars moving with equal speed in opposite directions is 0.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #12 on: 07/06/2015 20:20:37 »
doesn't matter. what force canceled the acceleration between proton and electron in a hydrogen atom?

how can 1 electron circle/orbit in 3 d space? even the electron's angular speed is just right to produce right amount of centrifugal force?

when electrons interact with atom, what exactly is interact? how? what mechanism?

please be realistic, not word games/puzzles.
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #13 on: 07/06/2015 20:32:59 »
Quote from: Jccc
electron in ice has ftl speed? is it possible? einstein agree?

In 1958, Pavel Cerenkov was awarded the Nobel Prize in physics for his success in accelerating an electron in water to a speed 32,000 kilometres per second faster than the speed of light in water. Pity Einstein missed that.   
 

Offline jccc

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #14 on: 07/06/2015 20:54:28 »
einstein won a nobel for photoelectric effect. saying photon is particle, impact electron to knock it out.

is that true fact? is photon a particle? is photon even exist? nobel prized theories are not absolute correct.

anyone repeated that experiment? proven to be fact?

btw, how you think/understood a hydrogen atom is formed? is the electron orbiting or not? 2 d or 3 d orbitals? what's the evidence?

Thanks Bill.
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #15 on: 08/06/2015 00:14:41 »
Quote from: Jccc
btw, how you think/understood a hydrogen atom is formed? is the electron orbiting or not? 2 d or 3 d orbitals?


As far as I am aware the orbitals represent a 3D space, This would seem to make sense if atoms are the "building blocks" of 3D objects.

My understanding is that the concept of an electron physically flying round a nucleus is just a model.  All that we can say about the situation is that the orbital represents an "area" in which there is a particular probability of finding the electron if you look for it; what it may, or may not, be doing before you detect it is a matter of some uncertainty.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #16 on: 08/06/2015 00:16:50 »
As long as you stick to an outdated model of atomic structure, you won't understand what actually happens. Please forget about the Bohr atom and accept that physics is an attempt to describe and explain reality, not to define it.

The evidence for the structure of the hydrogen atom is the fact that it exists and has a structure consisting of an electron and a proton. As practically everyone has pointed out to you many times, the electron is not and cannot be "orbiting" in a classical sense. Until you stop pretending that it is or should, I can't answer any more of your posts because you refuse to accept the facts.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #17 on: 08/06/2015 00:28:54 »
what fact?

fact is electron and proton attract each other according to coulomb's law.

fact is electron not discharge into proton.

fact is atoms are not  compressible as 99% empty space.

what is newest correct hydrogen atom model? will you please tell me?
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #18 on: 08/06/2015 00:47:25 »
Quote from: jccc
what is newest correct hydrogen atom model? will you please tell me?
What?? Do you think our understanding of the hydrogen atom changes day by day? It doesn't. The hydrogen atom described by quantum mechanics is the one that's correct and has been so for close to 100 years now. All experiments and observations confirm this.
 

Offline jccc

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #19 on: 08/06/2015 00:52:50 »
so what is it? how is a hydrogen atom formed?

all this time, no one ever answer this simple question.

can you please tell me now?

1 electron, 1 proton, how electron moves relate to the proton? what mechanism?

why is atoms not compressible? why no discharge between electron and proton? you said you don't know in another thread, do you know the answers now?
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #20 on: 08/06/2015 03:04:07 »
Various members of this forum have answered your question countless times! You just haven't acknowledged the answer...
 

Offline jccc

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #21 on: 08/06/2015 03:08:08 »
where/what is it? will you please quote/link the answers, thanks.
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #22 on: 09/06/2015 11:37:09 »
Quote from: Jccc
how is a hydrogen atom formed?

This seems to be a question you ask frequently, and no answer appears to be satisfactory.  Let's try a layman's take on it, which can be corrected as necessary by the experts.

Ionic hydrogen, which is simply unattached protons, is not readily found, for example, in nature. However, it is found in interstellar space.

Electrons are (elementary) particles which are freely available, and which would readily combine with any unattached proton to form a hydrogen atom.

The availability and reactivity of electrons accounts for the fact that hydrogen is found much more commonly than are unattached protons. 

Single hydrogen atoms are rarely encountered on Earth, as hydrogen is so reactive that it readily combines with a wide range or other elements.  Hydrogen gas is normally formed of H2 molecules.
 

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Re: If we beam electrons into water what will happen?
« Reply #22 on: 09/06/2015 11:37:09 »

 

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