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Author Topic: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??  (Read 11439 times)

Offline minass

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can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« on: 15/06/2015 20:41:11 »
And now a simple, almost childish assumption:

I think we all agree that life is all about chemical reactions at the end. So lets make an effort forget everything for a moment and focus heartlessly only on the reactions part of the organism. Moreover, there is no reason to believe that these reactions are not arbitrary.

Chemical reactions and Aging.

If the phenotype of an organism is the sum of its chemical reactions, one thing is obvious. That these reactions become different as we age. However, we don’t know whether the initial reactions are programmed to change and lead to the latter ones, or the transition is a result of other events. In other words, is it possible to maintain the same composition of reactions for a long time, thus preventing changes in phenotype, thus preventing further aging?

Answer: In the case our reactions are programmed to change, then things are more complicated. However, in the case that the reactions can be maintained as they are, then it can happen. And below is a possible way to achieve it.

The most important thing is to prevent changes. This can be achieved by providing a certain amount, composition and pace of initial substrates to the reacting system in the form of food. We are only interested in maintaining the system unchanged. We don’t care about the composition of this system, as long as it remains unchanged. This means that any diet that repeats itself every day,( that is providing everyday the same nutrients, in the same manner without any deviations in the routine) can cause the maximum of phenotype preserving in an organism, providing that the diet is viable and supplies all essential elements for life.

Question: Is there any existing evidence that this theory can work in reality?

Answer: A possible evidence can be the fact that the long term maintenance of the same weight (which is achieved by relatively stable food habits) pose an anti-aging effect. On the contrary, frequent changes in body weight accelerate aging.

Additionaly, anyone that tries to lose weight with the help of a specific nutrition, knows that even if he is very compliant to the perfect diet, he must periodically eat something else so as to further make changes in his body, because the body gets used to the diet and resists to further loss. It seems that eating the same food both in quality and quantity tend to cause stabilization of our body’s composition.


 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #1 on: 15/06/2015 21:57:43 »
It says here in "The Okinawan Centenarian Study" (1) that the 4 top countries for average life expectancy are Okinawa, Japan, Hong Kong, and, Sweden in that order.

Hmmmm. Swedish pancakes with lingonberry preserves, Gravlax, Potato Sausage, Swedish meatballs, Fiskpudding, pickled herring in sour cream - a steady diet of that will make you live longer?  Hah! Go know.

(1.)  http://www.okicent.org/
« Last Edit: 15/06/2015 22:00:03 by Pecos_Bill »
 

Offline DuffMan

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #2 on: 15/06/2015 22:01:50 »
Then again. Is it really worth it, if you have to maintain a certain diet to live longer?
 

Offline RD

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #3 on: 15/06/2015 23:46:33 »
Calorie restriction, without malnutrition, can increase lifespan ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie_restriction
« Last Edit: 15/06/2015 23:49:47 by RD »
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #4 on: 15/06/2015 23:57:43 »
The definitive observation about diet fads is the health food scene in Woody Allen's film "Sleeper"

You mean there was no deep fat? No steak? No cream pies, or hot fudge?

See it here

 

Offline minass

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #5 on: 18/06/2015 15:09:05 »
Pecos_Bill:
There is a theoretical rationale to believe that it is not the type of food that plays the most critical role, but the steadiness of the diet, as long as there is no malnutrition.


DuffMan:
Its not about what you eat. Its about what nutrients your body absorbs. Human creativity can think of ways to avoid suffering…


RD:
Calorie restriction can increase lifespan. This means that diet can affect aging, and this observation opened a door for further research. However, how can we find ways to go beyond calorie restriction?
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #6 on: 18/06/2015 16:08:42 »
Doctor: "If you don't smoke, drink alcohol, eat fried food, or sleep around, you could live for a hundred years".

Paddy: "And why would I want to?"

Two things can kill you: not enough of what you need, or too much of what you like. You choose.
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #7 on: 18/06/2015 20:44:10 »
There have only been two studies of Calorie Restriction. The Wisconsin study was not reproduced by the subsequent NIH study. Both studies were done on Rhesus Monkeys in cages. (1)

Even if you aren't a monkey, are you willing to subsist on 100% monkey chow doled out to you in a cage where you are safe from the temptations of Mary Berry and her cohorts?

I recall that a study was done on quaker conscientious objectors to study starvation. One side effect was that they stopped looking at girly pictures and put up pictures of food. Chocolate cake had displaced Betty Hutton's charms in their calorie restricted minds.

(1.) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23924667
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #8 on: 18/06/2015 21:59:00 »
Since people's dietary needs vary with things like age and weather there is logically no single consistent diet that is always optimal.
 

Offline RD

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #9 on: 19/06/2015 04:29:06 »
Allegedly this is a 55 year old man who has been on a calorie-restricted diet for 20 years ...

[ Although it looks like he dyes his barnet , and maybe he's had his eyelids done  ].
« Last Edit: 19/06/2015 04:50:20 by RD »
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #10 on: 19/06/2015 08:59:51 »
The man in that video claims to have been living on 1/3 less than the recommended caloric intake for years.

So 2400 calories/day times 2/3 equals 1584 calories/day.

So he ought to look like an inmate of Changi POW camp like in the book "King Rat" by James Clavell.

Look at the video again. Do you not smell a big fuzzy rat, Tuan?
 

Offline RD

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #11 on: 19/06/2015 14:52:20 »
... he ought to look like an inmate of Changi POW camp like in the book "King Rat" by James Clavell.

If his existence was sedentary, rather than being worked-to-death in a POW camp, then he could be telling the truth . I've seen another interview of that guy where he does remark that he is readily tired and usually hungry.
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #12 on: 19/06/2015 16:52:43 »
Metabolic demands of a 70 Kg. man lying still in a hospital bed 24 hours a day are 1800 calories give or take a few percent. If he wants to get up and live a normal life it needs food or he will lose weight. 2400 is a good first guess for a couch potato.

Does this man look like that? Because he sure as heck doesn't look like that to anyone who wasn't born yesterday. I believe you .... thousands wouldn't.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #13 on: 19/06/2015 17:47:44 »
The best recorded instances of a statistically significant reduction in mortality from heart disease were during the Nazi occupation of Norway and the siege of Stalingrad. So being attacked by Nazis is good for your health.

Where's the tongue-in-cheek smiley when you need it?   
 

Offline RD

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #14 on: 19/06/2015 19:52:09 »
... I believe you .... thousands wouldn't.

Quote from: livestrong.com
... To maintain current body weights, women often require 1,600 to 2,400 calories daily, while many adult men need 2,000 to 3,000 calories a day, according to the publication "Dietary Guidelines for Americans, 2010."
http://www.livestrong.com/article/310517-minimum-amount-of-calories-needed-per-day-to-survive/

If the above is true, someone with the physique and lifestyle of an American female could just maintain a constant bodyweight on "1584 calories/day".
« Last Edit: 19/06/2015 19:54:47 by RD »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #15 on: 20/06/2015 01:47:20 »
It's worth bearing in mind that recommmended calorific intake is for "average" males and females. The required intake to maintain constant weight depends on physique as well as gender, so it is observed that a small person can maintain his/her body weight on fewer calories than a large one, all other things being equal, and the ideal long-range astronaut would therefore be a small woman.
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #16 on: 20/06/2015 02:05:16 »
Working a bit hard to preserve this idea. aren't we. The man in the video is NOT a woman, nor is he a child nor is his build slight.

Let's assume you are correct by some wild circumstance and that he can survive on 2/3 rds of a normal 2400 calorie/day diet (for several years) i.e 1584 calories -- without showing obvious cachexia.

Now throw in that he has to earn a living --during winter cold - and that THEN he will look like this man with normal body habitus.

I believe you .... MILLIONS wouldn't
« Last Edit: 20/06/2015 02:06:52 by Pecos_Bill »
 

Offline RD

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #17 on: 20/06/2015 03:50:56 »
... Let's assume you are correct by some wild circumstance and that he can survive on 2/3 rds of a normal 2400 calorie/day diet (for several years) i.e 1584 calories ...

This article in "The Independent" does say Mr Fisher is on "around 1,600 calories" per day ... http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/eat-less-live-longer-1744811.html

We'd have to lock him up somewhere without access to food, other than what he was given, to find out if he could actually maintain body-weight on 1,600 calories per day.
« Last Edit: 20/06/2015 04:02:34 by RD »
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #18 on: 20/06/2015 07:48:12 »
I just tippy toed over to the calorie counter at "calculator net" (1)

FYI a 25 year old man 5' 6 " tall weighing 160 pounds and who is sedentary requires 1984 calories every blessed day to maintain his weight.

So you load his parameters into the little web gismo and check his weight over the course of a month.

If his weight is stable, there is no reason to confine him. He's sneaking food or I'm a dutchman.

(1) http://www.calculator.net/calorie-calculator.html?ctype=standard&cage=25&csex=m&cheightfeet=5&cheightinch=6&cpound=160&cheightmeter=180&ckg=60&cactivity=1.2&printit=0&x=28&y=10
 

Offline minass

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #19 on: 27/06/2015 13:04:57 »
First of all, there are ways to avoid lifelong fasting. A new interesting study has shown that periodic fasting can boost longevity and healthy lifespan, most propably by lowering the pressure and giving time to metabolism to compensate  various errors.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150618134408.htm

Secondly, if you want to test if caloric restriction works on human, you don't have to wait 150 years.
Athough not definite, there are indirect ways (e.g. gene expression  patterns) to estimate the aging related outcome of an intervention, without having to wait 120 years. An example is here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150610131728.htm
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #20 on: 27/06/2015 23:21:12 »
Male Jewish holocaust survivors lived about 18 months longer than male jews of the same cohort who emigrated to Israel before the war (1.)

3-4 years of starvation bought them an extra 18 months of life.

And isn't it just as possible that Nazi's just culled out the ones who would have died earlier?

Oh yeah, sign me right up for that, Hoss.


(1.) http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/male-holocaust-survivors-lived-longer-than-those-who-escaped-europe/279462/
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #21 on: 27/06/2015 23:46:43 »
The healthy survivor is a big problem in any epidemiological study. There's a possibility that a little radiation does you good, but there's equally a possibility that it just kills off the weak ones in utero. However the beneficial effect of Nazi occupation on heart disease does seem well documented. So the real question is "who cares?" If the choice is between a short, happy life and a long, miserable one, most normal people would I think vote for option A.

I have a friend who swears that she lives entirely on meditation, fresh air, and lettuce. Apparently "chocolate doesn't count, because it's good for you."
« Last Edit: 27/06/2015 23:48:43 by alancalverd »
 

Offline minass

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #22 on: 07/07/2015 14:41:20 »
Not all people age at the same pace:
1)During a 20th high school reunion what you notice is quite interesting. They are all 38 years old, but they appear to be aging at different rates. Signs of aging are already evident in this relatively young age group. Researchers have recently published in PNAS a long term study, in which they used a panel of 18 biological measures to address whether an individual is aging faster or slower than the average. The panel included parameters of specific organ function, length of telomeres, cardiovascular fitness, etc. What they found was those that physically appear to age faster, scored worse in this panel and were biologically older. It is also apparent that the aging rate of twins is genetically determined only in 20%, suggesting a greater role of environmental factors, and thus interventions can be possible.
Althought faster, cheaper and more efficient ways to determine aging rates are needed, this study points that you don’t have to wait 110 years to test the efficacy of an anti-aging strategy.
2)There is a new project that is called Longevity Cookbook that is mainly a scientific initiative by a group of researchers,  to study the effects of nutrition in aging and longevity.
I particularly liked the moto that one of its scientists posted on the groups site. It goes something like: We all have a big problem. Aging that slowly kills us. If we don’t do something about it, we will die….
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #23 on: 07/07/2015 18:23:17 »
In the free online biostatistics courses which I am currently taking from Johns Hopkins University (See some current courses here  https://mail.google.com/mail/ca/u/0/#inbox/14e66743c030bc11) we learn about the evils of "confounding" of your data and how it often leads to preposterous conclusions like your cockamammy diet plans. They may or may not be true, but your method of analysis is incredibly incompetent and  naive.

That is why people who have trained minds roll their eyes at your proclamations. You really ought to take the time and effort to learn how to think scientifically, you know. The Johns Hopkins courses would go a long way for you.

In your high school reunion example you <<haven't>> controlled for the effects of genetics, alcohol. smoking, drugs, environmental factors, and just plain luck. That's why your claims don't amount to a hill of beans.
 

Offline minass

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #24 on: 12/07/2015 14:11:11 »
So you mean that some online biostatistic courses helped you to debunk a large multi institutional study that had undergone rigorous peer review and managed to get published in one of the most prestigious scientific journals, such as PNAS (IF=9,674)???

Well, in any case, here is the link:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/07/01/1506264112
 

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #24 on: 12/07/2015 14:11:11 »

 

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