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Author Topic: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??  (Read 11451 times)

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #25 on: 13/07/2015 08:11:41 »
The article you cited does not address peoples' diets.

I was once a student in a couple of graduate seminars in Pharmacology. Part of your grade in them depended on how well you could demonstrate that one of the other students was making a puerile presentation of their assigned topic.

I mention this because, had you pulled a stunt like that PNAS citation in there, the students would have torn it to shreds, made a bonfire out of it, and then danced naked around it.

I say again the example you cited of your high school reunion betrays a woeful ignorance of rigorous scientific methodology. In your first post you called your thesis an "almost childish assumption."

Unless you have a real peer reviewed article in a real journal that actually addresses the evidence of your "almost childish assumption"... I would strike out the "almost".
« Last Edit: 13/07/2015 08:59:29 by Pecos_Bill »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #26 on: 16/07/2015 23:59:24 »
The summary of the PNAS article runs fairly close to Mein Kampf as an example of medical ethics.
 

Offline minass

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #27 on: 18/07/2015 15:53:35 »
I didn't say that this study proves what i am saying in the OP. 
I used it as an example to show that aging is a continuum, highly influenced by environmental factors, such as aging).
Only direct testing can prove or disprove a hypothesis.
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #28 on: 18/07/2015 19:10:39 »
Listen up Sanpaku.

The <<scientific>> definition of a hypothesis is, "In science, a hypothesis is an idea or explanation that you then test through study and experimentation."(1.) This is the naked <<scientists>> forum where you should speak <<science>> and not the popular, imprecise argot of the streets.

Your "almost" childish assumption has no right to sail in here under false colors as a hypothesis when it is no more than a conjecture at best. If your "hypothesis" could have been tested it would have, but it can't. In other words as we say here in the land of round door knobs, " Shoulda, woulda, coulda."

I think you should pour yourself a cup of Labsang and go sit and think about this until you have a real hypothesis to discuss.

Allsame:  " Ensure the mind is running before the mouth is engaged."

(1.) http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/hypothesis
 

Offline minass

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #29 on: 24/07/2015 21:44:50 »
Why do you claim that it canít be tested? What is the problem to test it in rodents for example? Different diet patterns can be easily provided. Additionally, checking for signs of aging (e.g. expression of age-related molecular pathways), not only is feasible, but it is a daily routine in longevity research. What else do you need? Compare the groups and perform the statistical analysis.
On the other hand, if truly untestable theories such as the selfish gene or superstrings are considered formal respectable hypotheses, I donít see why my simple, logical assumptions that can be easily tested donít have the right to even be called ďhypothesisĒ according to you!!
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #30 on: 25/07/2015 00:59:05 »
Shoulda, woulda, coulda. If wishes were horses, I don't doubt you would ride this right onto the stage in Stockholm and graciously accept the Noble prize and the world's acclaim for your perspicacity and hard work.

By you, you know what science is, Bubby.

Tell me this. By the scientists do you understand it?

Once again I am asking you to stop with the pipe dreams and show me any concrete example of this "feasible" test you are sure exists.

Maybe you would be better off explaining this to the good folk in the Tir Nan Og. They don't age at all there, you know.

Sounds right up your alley, don't it?
« Last Edit: 25/07/2015 01:04:05 by Pecos_Bill »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #31 on: 25/07/2015 01:14:45 »
You don't seem to be answering the question that was asked.
" can a strictly steady diet delay ageing?"
It didn't ask about some bloke who assertedly doesn't eat enough to explain his weight.
For whatever it's worth, pop in to your local doctor's surgery. They can show you a stack of people who swear blind that they are "sticking to the diet" but putting on weight.

People change; their "best" diet changes.
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #32 on: 25/07/2015 04:35:40 »
And FURTHERMORE..

Kindly enumerate those "expressions of age related molecular pathways" which you so blithely claim to be feasible so that I can tell whether or not you are just parroting jargon which you have concatenated to try to sound like you aren't talking through your hat.

The "selfish gene" is NOT a theory and "sociobiology" is not science. Don't take my word for it. (1.) Only a credulous, ignorant  Babbitt would claim that it was, Mister.

Moreover "strings" are only called a "theory" because physicists got tired of explaining the difference between a conjecture and a theory to college dropouts, theosophists, and art history majors.

Now I am going to wait and see what inane twaddle you will produce after this THIRD time that I have asked you to put up a real scientific article in a real peer reviewed journal. Come on, Hoss it's past time for you to show us your stuff.


(1.)http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/12/09/debate-over-selfish-gene-theory-heats-up/
 

Offline minass

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #33 on: 30/07/2015 17:36:56 »
You don't seem to be answering the question that was asked.
" can a strictly steady diet delay ageing?"
It didn't ask about some bloke who assertedly doesn't eat enough to explain his weight.
For whatever it's worth, pop in to your local doctor's surgery. They can show you a stack of people who swear blind that they are "sticking to the diet" but putting on weight.

People change; their "best" diet changes.
Under a certain constant diet, nobody gains weight indefinitely. At some point they stop and maintain a constant weight, irrespective on whether they are satisfied with that...


And FURTHERMORE..

Kindly enumerate those "expressions of age related molecular pathways" which you so blithely claim to be feasible so that I can tell whether or not you are just parroting jargon which you have concatenated to try to sound like you aren't talking through your hat.


There are many ways you can easily do it. A quick example are the ways to measure aging processes in this study..
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413115002247

Want more examples or is it ok?
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #34 on: 30/07/2015 18:30:24 »
I seriously doubt that you would know a serious scientific research article if it were to walk up and commit a public nuisance on your trouser leg.

Your citation is a review article. It is a secondary reference to a number of articles. Some them discuss yeast metabolism and some of them discuss periodic fasting diets. NONE of the articles mention your "almost" childish assumption of the benefits of a "strictly steady diet". Therefore I am moved to wonder if you are, in fact, old enough to shave.

I am attaching an image of the current issue which contains your "evidence" for the benefit of readers to evaluate whether or not it looks like something Elsevier publishing, cooked up to rake in the moola from credulous wannabee "scientists".

I think the presence of a "shopping cart" icon in the upper right corner of the web site speaks eloquently of the bona fide nature of this "peer reviewed journal".
 

Offline minass

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #35 on: 05/08/2015 13:53:01 »
1)You asked for ways to indirectly estimate aging with the help of molecular biology. In the methods section you can find some examples.

2)I am using the term "childish assumption" to underscore the fact that even a child can see how obviously logical  my arguments are. Additionally, they are supported by evidence (e.g. caloric restriction diet only seems to offer increased longevity in animals that while on ad libitum diet they become overweight and thus, maintaining a stable weight is an indicator of longevity).

3)Cell Journal is one of the top-ranked journals with an IF of 17,56...
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #36 on: 05/08/2015 17:48:45 »
The "scientific journal" that you cited, I repeat, has a shopping cart icon in the website top line. Enough said.

It is not that "even a child" would understand your idea. Rather it is that ONLY a child would be taken in by your puerile and naive attempt to support it by adult standards.

FOR INSTANCE you obviously can't tell the difference between the 2nd hand review article that you are blabbering on about and an actual bona fide peer reviewed article reporting actual research. Research, I might add, that has any evidence to support  your "childish assumption" young feller me lad.

Why don't you ask your teacher to explain that to you before you come back here and embarrass yourself again?
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #37 on: 05/08/2015 21:51:29 »
to be fair, there's nothing unusual about serious scientific journals having a "checkout"
http://iopscience.iop.org/cart/add?articleId=0049-1748/6/4/A24

However the idea that one diet can sustain someone throughout life is plain silly.
Minass
Try living on milk.
You used to- so by this thread's stupid suggestion you should still be able to.

As I have pointed out, the body has different dietary needs depending on the weather  and on whether or not you are fighting an infection etc.

Until you address that there's nothing more to say.
Oh, this "Under a certain constant diet, nobody gains weight indefinitely. At some point they stop and maintain a constant weight, irrespective on whether they are satisfied with that..."
just isn't true.
It is particularly obviously false in some cases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prader%E2%80%93Willi_syndrome
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #38 on: 06/08/2015 01:50:36 »
For the benefit of the readers, NONE of the following scientific periodicals have a "checkout" icon on their web page header..

Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
The Lancet
New England Journal of Medicine
Circulation
The Cancer Journal
The Journal of Microbiology
The Journal of Molecular Biology
Journal of Applied Physiology
Journal of Virology
Journal of Pharmacology & Pharmacological Therapeutics
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

Enough said? Because I can go on  ....and on...and on.

Anybody who wants a career in Science MUST be prepared to spend hours every week keeping up on the literature in their field. That demands recognizing and avoiding the "journals" that let any nit-wit publish ridiculous piffle to keep his tenure.

Throwing the ones with a checkout icon into the round file is an obligatory first step.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #39 on: 06/08/2015 20:54:51 »
Here is an example of the Lancet's checkout page.

https://secure.jbs.elsevierhealth.com/journals/lancet/subscribe?redirectUri=%2Fjournals%2Flancet%2Farticle%2FPIIS0140-6736%2814%2960577-8%2Ffulltext&checkOut=Proceed+to+Checkout&code=lancet-site

Granted they don't put it on the front cover, but it's still there if you actually want to read most of their stuff.
Would you like me to check the others for you so you can avoid wasting time on them?
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #40 on: 06/08/2015 22:04:34 »
Reputable journals may offer reprints of articles for sale upon request. That is true.

Peddling them on the cover, however, is inexcusably common. It reeks of the dog track and Rupert Murdoch.

This is the Physiology and Medicine forum. Admmisable Standards of conduct should reflect that.
 

Offline minass

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #41 on: 10/08/2015 08:47:07 »
i don't see any problem with that as long as the content is of high quality!!
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #42 on: 10/08/2015 22:03:04 »
i don't see any problem with that as long as the content is of high quality!!
Actually, the point is one made earlier
"NONE of the articles mention your "almost" childish assumption of the benefits of a "strictly steady diet". "
So whether it's a good journal or not; it doesn't actually talk about your idea.

 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #43 on: 10/08/2015 23:57:55 »
And more to the point, Mr. Minass, it is difficult to tell the difference between you and a common street huckster when you repeatedly claim to have evidence but feed us a load of phony baloney nonsense in lieu of that "evidence".

It is now four(4) times that I have asked you for a peer-reviewed article that supports your preposterous assertion. It is now four(4) times that you have responded with some variation of your pathetic song and dance.

Please,please, please give us some iota of REAL evidence to show that you are not (a.) a prankster. (b.) a bunko artist, and/or (c.) not an actual and bona fide mooncalf.

 

Offline minass

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #44 on: 19/08/2015 17:15:29 »
i don't see any problem with that as long as the content is of high quality!!
Actually, the point is one made earlier
"NONE of the articles mention your "almost" childish assumption of the benefits of a "strictly steady diet". "
So whether it's a good journal or not; it doesn't actually talk about your idea.
I never said something like that. I just usde a reference to underscore that there is high-level evidence that environmental and lifestyle factors can influence the pace we are aging and pecos-bill said that the reference was not of high-quality and an indicator of that was check-out icons. So i said that check-out icons is not a problem as long as the content of the journal is of high quality.


It is now four(4) times that I have asked you for a peer-reviewed article that supports your preposterous assertion. It is now four(4) times that you have responded with some variation of your pathetic song and dance.



I never claimed about direct evidence supporting that what i say is the case. Only experimental testing can validate or rule out a hypothesis. I only provided high-level evidence to support that this hypothesis is justifiable,  based on simple logical assumptions that even a child can agree they are based on logic. Additionally, you challenged me and i showed that whatever i said is testable and falsifiable.
 

Offline annie123

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #45 on: 19/08/2015 19:13:41 »
While Pecos Bill may be making some valid points it seems to me his way of making them would be verbally torn to shreds by anyone  versed in civilized methods of debating/discussing. I wonder if he would use such inflammatory language and take such an arrogant position if he were actually talking face to face with minass, who is laudably containing himself in terms of civility.
Where does the moderator come into this??
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #46 on: 19/08/2015 19:34:32 »
I am removing my initial comments.

The nature of this person's argument has been adequately clarified. It would be ungentlemanly of me to persist in pointing it out. If such "research" becomes common in England, perhaps it would be well to start studying Mandarin.

Anybody who has been persuaded to attempt to prolong their life by exclusively  eating monkey chow (or whatever) is welcome to do so.
« Last Edit: 20/08/2015 04:15:24 by Pecos_Bill »
 

Offline minass

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #47 on: 25/08/2015 19:39:13 »
Anybody who has been persuaded to attempt to prolong their life by exclusively  eating monkey chow (or whatever) is welcome to do so.
This is a total misinterpretation of what i said!


The nature of this person's argument has been adequately clarified. It would be ungentlemanly of me to persist in pointing it out. If such "research" becomes common in England, perhaps it would be well to start studying Mandarin.

I never said that i proved something scientifically here. Besides, here is not the place to do so...Learn to recognize the difference.

PS Have you ever heard of pubmed?
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #48 on: 25/08/2015 22:21:03 »
Quod erat demonstrandum
« Last Edit: 25/08/2015 22:23:24 by Pecos_Bill »
 

Offline minass

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #49 on: 09/09/2015 11:37:20 »
For anyone interested, there is a man in India that claims to be 179 years old. He says that death has forgotten him.
Btw he says that his secret was good nutrition (not many meats) and his lack of stress...
 

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Re: can a strictly steady diet delay aging??
« Reply #49 on: 09/09/2015 11:37:20 »

 

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