The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?  (Read 21956 times)

Offline Ophiolite

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #25 on: 18/12/2006 16:07:40 »
The danger of the IDiots is their ubiquity. Then I noticed Dr. Maciej Giertych's affiliation: he is with the Institute of Dendrology, in Poland. You see - branches everywhere!
 

Offline eric l

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 514
    • View Profile
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #26 on: 18/12/2006 16:11:04 »
The danger of the IDiots is their ubiquity. Then I noticed Dr. Maciej Giertych's affiliation: he is with the Institute of Dendrology, in Poland. You see - branches everywhere!
Dendrology ?  Branches indeed... 
 

Offline science_guy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 701
  • I'm right there... inside neilep's head!
    • View Profile
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #27 on: 18/12/2006 16:39:02 »
This "argument" seems to be pretty one sided.

First thing on the plate, the tendency for you people to call my particular community a bunch of ID(iots).  The proper term to place on that particular group of people, who have different views than you do, are creationists.  And I am calling your group Evolutionists respectively.

Second:  You seem to be throwing away the possibility that the universe was created by a higher being, just because it was an idea that was put forth by people from more than 200 years ago, and therefore unreliable.  Not the best form of logic.

There are many Scientists who are creationists, and many of them are good scientists, even though our atheist community has a definition of a "good" scientist to be an evolutionist.  The real definition of a good scientist is one who examines the facts, and comes to his own conclusion.

Neither theory has been entirely proven, or entirely disproven, and should be treated as such.
 

Offline chris

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5337
  • Thanked: 65 times
  • The Naked Scientist
    • View Profile
    • The Naked Scientists
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #28 on: 18/12/2006 18:28:40 »
I don't think that anything we know scientifically about the origin of the universe and the Big Bang can rule out creation. If God did create the universe, and hence the Earth, then why not invent some rules to govern its evolution and development? They're necessary. Without them the system just could not survive. But that's not the same as saying that God made the Earth 6000 years ago.

I don't think creationism and evolution are the mutually exclusive worlds that people perceive them to be. Something must have preceeded the Big Bang. Who knows what and how? But sentimentality must not be allowed to muddy the scientific waters of our attempts to understand the world around us.

Chris

 

Offline Heliotrope

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
    • http://www.davethedrummer.com
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #29 on: 18/12/2006 19:25:12 »
This "argument" seems to be pretty one sided.

Of course it's one sided.
There isn't another side.
There is only one side.
Furthermore there is no argument either.
Same as there is no debate.

Quote
First thing on the plate, the tendency for you people to call my particular community a bunch of ID(iots).

Incorrect.
That is my propensity.
No one else has used the term.
Do you have a more suitable word for those who do not aknowledge rationality and reason ?
I'll be more than happy to use it.

Quote
The proper term to place on that particular group of people, who have different views than you do, are creationists.

Not at all.
There are many people who have different views than I do.
Not all of them are creationists.

Quote
And I am calling your group Evolutionists respectively.

As you wish.
Rationalists would be more accurate however.
Furthermore, it would be an error of judgement to polarise this or any other discussion into two opposing groups. Indeed a false dichotomy would result.
There are many different viewpoints and not all of them fall into one of these two categories.

Quote
Second:  You seem to be throwing away the possibility that the universe was created by a higher being, just because it was an idea that was put forth by people from more than 200 years ago, and therefore unreliable.  Not the best form of logic.

This is a nonsequitur.
No one is throwing away any possibilities at all.
There is nothing in science so far that excludes the possibility that the Universe was created by some form of divine being.
There is, however, a great deal in science that excludes the possibility that the Universe was created by a divine being some time after approximately 15 billion years ago.

Quote
There are many Scientists who are creationists, and many of them are good scientists,

Absolutely.

Quote
even though our atheist community has a definition of a "good" scientist to be an evolutionist.

Incorrect.
The measure of a "good" scientist is experimental and observational rigor. Not what they have as personal beliefs.

Quote
The real definition of a good scientist is one who examines the facts, and comes to his own conclusion.

Incorrect.
A "good" scientist comes to the inescapable conclusion that is in the data they have gathered.
Personal opinions do not come into it.
If the data contradict the scientist's own opinions then their opinions are incorrect.
The scientist must take stock and come to some sort of internal standpoint that they are happy with.
This does not affect the data or the observations and certainly does not affect the conclusions to be drawn from them.

Quote
Neither theory has been entirely proven, or entirely disproven, and should be treated as such.

Why on Earth do you think there are so many scientists all searching Nature for clues about how we came to be ?
They are searching for insight into questions such as "Why are we here ?", "What is the Universe for ?", "How does the Universe work ?" etc... etc...
The answers to some of these questions can, at present, only be guessed at.
There are others that are yielding to experiment and observation.
In the future more of these fundamental questions will be able to be tackled in a rational way with experiment and observation.

Scientists are looking for the answers to the same questions as creationists.
Answers to the same questions that every 8 year old child asks of it's parents.
BUT, they are doing it without preconceived ideas about what they will find.

Creationism presupposes that "god did it".
Science tries to find out if god did it.

« Last Edit: 18/12/2006 19:33:07 by Heliotrope »
 

Offline Heliotrope

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
    • http://www.davethedrummer.com
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #30 on: 18/12/2006 19:34:07 »
Dendrology ?  Branches indeed... 

;D ;D
 

Offline rosy

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • Chemistry
    • View Profile
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #31 on: 18/12/2006 21:48:20 »
I feel inclined to point out that whilst IDiots may be Heliotrope's choice of dismissal, and I can see why those who favour the intelligent design hypothesis might object to that, I don't believe science_guy speaks for all those who think a higher intelligence was involved in the universe coming into existence in disclaiming the description "Intelligent Design" in favour of "Creastionist", I was under the impression that the ID camp was a pretty broad spectrum of people with a lot of different outlooks from (a)-god-(orotherbeing)-set-up-evolution to god-made-the-world-in-7-days.
Incidentally, I'd be interested to know what colour of (to use his preffered term) creationists science_guy belongs..
 

Offline eric l

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 514
    • View Profile
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #32 on: 19/12/2006 10:56:45 »
I agree that it is not possible to know wether the "Big Bang" was an act of will from some "Intelligent Designer" it is a matter of belief.
Wether you believe or not will depend on
  • your own personality and/or experience
  • the trust you put in the person who wants you to believe or disbelieve and his or her argumentation
It is quite possible to imagine an intelligent designer who creates not so much a universe as we know it, but a set of rules by which we evolve to the universe as we know it.  And that may be a fair point to start a discussion.
One of my points against creationism is that it seems to be designed to see man as the "ultimate creature", like Teilhard de Chardin's "point omega".  Considering the vulnerability of the "ultimate creature" to primitive organisms like e.g. the bird flue virus, the "intelligent designer" must have taken some stupid risks ! 
 

Offline daveshorts

  • Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2583
  • Physics, Experiments
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chaosscience.org.uk
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #33 on: 19/12/2006 13:00:22 »
Science doesn't tell you what is true, it tells you what is probably the case, where the probablility in probably is variable, depending on whether you are talking about string theory or whether the ball I just threw is going to hit Jupiter.

Science can't rule out the possibility that the universe was created 4000years ago, or for that matter 2 miliseconds ago, but it can say that if this was the case the flying spaghetti monster made a bloody good job of making it look 15 billion years old when it touched us with it's noodley appendage and created the universe last tuesday. So if we want to find oil/iron ore or guess where the planets are going to be next week it is best to assume that it is 15 billion years old and get on with life.
 

Offline science_guy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 701
  • I'm right there... inside neilep's head!
    • View Profile
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #34 on: 19/12/2006 16:00:42 »
Quote
I'd be interested to know what colour of (to use his preffered term) creationists science_guy belongs..

I am of what most people might call an old earth creationist.

Quote
god-made-the-world-in-7-days.

That is not our view for this particular view on things.  The Bible did not come in English, but was translated into english from many different languages.  The language that it originated from is the hebrew language.  There are many words for "day" in hebrew, but the one that was used in the bible is translated to "any period of time in which somthing is accomplished", or somthing similar to that effect.

the old Earth creationist view of things is that God created everything, including nature.  Because God does not lie, then his record that we find in nature is true, though subject to different views and explanations that we, as scientists, put out to the community.  Therefore, If we find evidence that the Universe was created 15 billion years ago, then that must be when it was created. 
 

Offline Mjhavok

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
    • View Profile
    • http://cantmakeadifference.blogspot.com
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #35 on: 19/12/2006 16:08:31 »
How convenient.
 

Offline chris

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5337
  • Thanked: 65 times
  • The Naked Scientist
    • View Profile
    • The Naked Scientists
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #36 on: 19/12/2006 16:36:26 »
Science_guy:

To take a religious example, it strikes me that to stand up and say you're a creationist on this forum must you must feel a bit like Daniel in the lion's den?!

Chris
 

Offline Heliotrope

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
    • http://www.davethedrummer.com
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #37 on: 19/12/2006 19:52:07 »
I am of what most people might call an old earth creationist.

Gotcha.
Now I know where you're coming from.
(I think)

Quote
the old Earth creationist view of things is that God created everything, including nature.  Because God does not lie, then his record that we find in nature is true, though subject to different views and explanations that we, as scientists, put out to the community.  Therefore, If we find evidence that the Universe was created 15 billion years ago, then that must be when it was created. 

I'd just like to clarify something.
Assuming that there is evidence that the Universe came into being 15 million years ago is it your understanding that the "creation event" (perhaps a poor term) ocurred before that time ?
Also, given the above, is it your view that everything that has come after 15 million years ago does not require the intervention of god or is it your view that god still has an ongoing hand in things ?

I'm just trying to get a handle on the limits of your belief.

Personally I have no problems with what people choose to believe. Beliefs are beliefs and are not subject to verification of any sort other than the person holding them... holds them.

I find fascinating the places where belief and verifiable information come into contact so I ask in all openness.
I personally would have no problem with someone who holds that god created the Universe at some time even in the face of absolutely incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.
I also have no problem understanding that people who hold beliefs might not want to have to examine their beliefs too closely and do not require verification of them or not. The comfort, guidance and support they bring far outweigh any desire to find out their limits or where they come from or the usefulness, to them, of such information.

All I ask from someone is that they aknowledge their beliefs might not be the whole, or part, of the way things can be observed to work.

Quote
There are many words for "day" in hebrew, but the one that was used in the bible is translated to "any period of time in which somthing is accomplished", or somthing similar to that effect.

I didn't know that.
Makes more sense like that.
 

Offline Heliotrope

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
    • http://www.davethedrummer.com
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #38 on: 19/12/2006 19:54:35 »
Science_Guy,
I'm also curious as to why you (seem to) think that because you are a believer in the traditional creation you are a proponent of ID.
Unless you are a proponent of ID as well of course.
 

Offline Heliotrope

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
    • http://www.davethedrummer.com
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #39 on: 19/12/2006 20:01:07 »
I agree that it is not possible to know wether the "Big Bang" was an act of will from some "Intelligent Designer" it is a matter of belief.

Incorrect.
It is a matter of investigation and observation.
Those investigations have not yet progressed to the point at which it is possible to decide which is the case.
Just because something is unknown does not mean that it is unknowable.
That would be to fall for a logical fallacy.

Quote from: The Skeptic's Guide To The Universe
Confusing currently unexplained with unexplainable.

Because we do not currently have an adequate explanation for a phenomenon does not mean that it is forever unexplainable, or that it therefore defies the laws of nature or requires a paranormal explanation. An example of this is the "God of the Gaps" strategy of creationists that whatever we cannot currently explain is unexplainable and was therefore an act of god.
 

Offline Ophiolite

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #40 on: 20/12/2006 11:31:20 »
Just two 'housekeeping' corrections relating to Heliotrope.
Firstly, I was so proud of my dendrology-branches joke that I felt real disappointment when Helio picked it up only via eric's comments.
Second, I also referred to ID supporters as IDiots, a term that is surely vastly preferable to intellectually dishonest, conniving, hypocritical scumbags.

Science_guy, as Chris pointed out a scientific viewpoint does not currently exclude the possibility of a creator. (Personally, I find atheism as ill conceived as theism. I am resolutely wedded to my agnosticism: my indecision is final.) What disturbs me about the hard core Intelligent Design advocates is that they focus exclusively on what is wrong with evolution (suprise, suprise - we don't know everything yet), but offer no evidence for their alternative view.

 

Offline science_guy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 701
  • I'm right there... inside neilep's head!
    • View Profile
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #41 on: 20/12/2006 16:00:13 »
Quote
To take a religious example, it strikes me that to stand up and say you're a creationist on this forum must you must feel a bit like Daniel in the lion's den?!

not so.  I came to this forum because I have a deep interest in the workings of all things existing, and I also firmly believe in my viewpoint, and will scream it out to the world without fear of repercussion.

[joke]Besides, what do I have to fear from a bunch of guys in lab coats? ::)[/joke]

Quote
I'm also curious as to why you (seem to) think that because you are a believer in the traditional creation you are a proponent of ID.
Unless you are a proponent of ID as well of course.

the belief of creationism is that an intelligent being created, or designed, the universe.  Is that not what a proponent of ID is?

Right now, I do not know every answer to your questions, and possibly because some of them do not exist.  I have posted this link at least three times, but lets do it once more: http://www.reasons.org/.  This site belongs to the organization, Reasons to Believe, founded by Dr. Hugh Ross, Astrophysicist.  I know him personally and he is very good at what he does.
 

Offline Ophiolite

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
  • Thanked: 6 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #42 on: 20/12/2006 16:38:30 »
the belief of creationism is that an intelligent being created, or designed, the universe.  Is that not what a proponent of ID is?.
No. It is possible to believe that an entity created the Universe, establishing its Laws and characteristics in such a way that stars, galaxies and planets would arise, and that later life, some of it intelligent would come to exist on one or more of these planets.
A proponent of ID argues that the complexity of life is such that it could not have arisen by chance, and most certainly not by the 'random' process of natural selection over a period of four billion years. ID is a counterargument to evolution. It is not, in my view, the respectable face of creationism.
 

Offline Mjhavok

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
    • View Profile
    • http://cantmakeadifference.blogspot.com
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #43 on: 20/12/2006 17:17:25 »
IDiots have been debunked by people older than my granmother who are long gone by now.
 

Offline Heliotrope

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
    • http://www.davethedrummer.com
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #44 on: 21/12/2006 12:27:55 »
Firstly, I was so proud of my dendrology-branches joke that I felt real disappointment when Helio picked it up only via eric's comments.

:D
It was the dryness of Eric's comment that made me laugh.
;D

 

Offline Heliotrope

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
    • http://www.davethedrummer.com
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #45 on: 21/12/2006 12:47:30 »
[joke]Besides, what do I have to fear from a bunch of guys in lab coats? ::)[/joke]

;D
Touche.

Quote
Quote
I'm also curious as to why you (seem to) think that because you are a believer in the traditional creation you are a proponent of ID.
Unless you are a proponent of ID as well of course.

the belief of creationism is that an intelligent being created, or designed, the universe.  Is that not what a proponent of ID is?

Definitely not.
Believers in creationism simply have a different viewpoint with varying degrees of interaction in the Universe on the part of their deity.
No problems there at all. You believe what you want. I'll back you up to the hilt.

ID(iots) are destructive and nihilistic.
They have only the extinction of Darwinism, Evolution and the evidence for Natural Selection in mind as their objectives.
They do not seem (to me) to believe in anything except wanton intellectual vandalism.
ID(iots) offer nothing, no new information, nothing that can be understood, nothing that can be used to make anyone's life better.

Creationism still follows it's own internally consistent 'laws'. It gives support and comfort to those who require it.
Science follows internally consistent laws arrived at by observation and experiment. It gives sureity and repeatability to those who require it.
ID follows no laws. It has no internal self-consistency. It gives nothing to anyone.
It would strip sciene of it's validity by destroying the methodologies that allow it to function and it would also strip traditional creationism of it's comfort and solidity by founding it's distorted tenets on the ashes of Darwinism.

ID offers nothing.
ID is utterly empty.
 

Offline science_guy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 701
  • I'm right there... inside neilep's head!
    • View Profile
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #46 on: 21/12/2006 15:52:17 »
Quote
ID(iots) are destructive and nihilistic.
They have only the extinction of Darwinism, Evolution and the evidence for Natural Selection in mind as their objectives.
They do not seem (to me) to believe in anything except wanton intellectual vandalism.
ID(iots) offer nothing, no new information, nothing that can be understood, nothing that can be used to make anyone's life better.

Creationism still follows it's own internally consistent 'laws'. It gives support and comfort to those who require it.
Science follows internally consistent laws arrived at by observation and experiment. It gives sureity and repeatability to those who require it.
ID follows no laws. It has no internal self-consistency. It gives nothing to anyone.
It would strip sciene of it's validity by destroying the methodologies that allow it to function and it would also strip traditional creationism of it's comfort and solidity by founding it's distorted tenets on the ashes of Darwinism.

ID offers nothing.
ID is utterly empty.

ok... I see your point.  But, I still see calling them ID(iots) is rude and uncalled for.  Scientists are usually supposed to be above such antics.  They ARE Human Beings, and also should be treated as such, even if you dislike them.
 

Offline Mjhavok

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
    • View Profile
    • http://cantmakeadifference.blogspot.com
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #47 on: 21/12/2006 23:42:40 »
Sometimes a spade is just a spade. Calling it a misguided digging instrument doesn't make it any less a spade.
 

Offline Heliotrope

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
    • http://www.davethedrummer.com
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #48 on: 22/12/2006 10:46:05 »
ok... I see your point.  But, I still see calling them ID(iots) is rude and uncalled for.

I can be rude when I choose.
And I choose to be rude to them.
I'd prefer to be hitting them with a piece of wood that had a nail hammered through the end but you can't have everything.
Not even for Christmas.
*shrug*
;D

Quote
Scientists are usually supposed to be above such antics.

I'm not a scientist. Even though I would very much like to be.
I'm an Electronic Design Engineer, drummer and photographer.
I take your point though.

It is extremely frustrating when it seems that all around one is falling apart due to the seemingy routine acceptance of quite the most crassly stupid and obviously incorrect things.
It's back to the stick with the nail in the end.
As I said I don't have any issues with what people choose to believe. They are the masters of the insides of their own heads.
If they choose to be idiots then that's their lookout.
My problem comes when some of them get themselves into positions where they can distort the information being fed to our children and the public at large.
I actually don't have any children. I intend to sustitute them with a Bentley :D Less hassle all around methinks.
Anyway...

 

Offline gecko

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #49 on: 25/12/2006 00:56:15 »
i never understood that either, that somehow a book from thousands of years ago is "more credible" than a book today. its a logical fallacy, that someone old must be correct and something new incorrect.

case in point- the scientology garbage. its written by a "prophet" from our time with a bunch of illogical, nonsense beliefs, and most people can see right through it as having no truth or substance. why then, are older holy books revered? they have the same "proof" to back them up. just because it happened long ago, and through force and political control it has been forced onto people to where they are born into it, its accepted.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Is evidence against evolution all nonsense?
« Reply #49 on: 25/12/2006 00:56:15 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums