The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?  (Read 4816 times)

Offline chris

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Thanked: 65 times
  • The Naked Scientist
    • View Profile
    • The Naked Scientists
Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« on: 10/07/2015 11:38:08 »
I was discussing the dangers of chocolate ingestion in dogs; the theobromine in a small bar is a toxic dose for the average dog. But are cats also vulnerable to this effect?


 

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8126
  • Thanked: 53 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #1 on: 10/07/2015 12:50:02 »
From the LD50 cats are more sensitive than dogs ...

Quote from: plos.org
The theobromine LD50 is about 1000 mg/kg in humans.
But for cats it’s 200 mg/kg and for dogs it’s 300 mg/kg ...
http://blogs.plos.org/speakeasyscience/2012/02/14/the-curious-toxic-chemistry-of-chocolate/

But apparently cats can't taste sweet, so they are less likely to eat any chocolate they find ...
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-cats-cannot-taste-sweets/
« Last Edit: 10/07/2015 12:55:47 by RD »
 

Offline chris

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5336
  • Thanked: 65 times
  • The Naked Scientist
    • View Profile
    • The Naked Scientists
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #2 on: 12/07/2015 09:54:00 »
Thank you; I learned recently that cats are also exquisitely sensitive to certain painkillers, like paracetamol. It's interesting how different our mammalian metabolisms are, despite how closely related we are as an animal group.
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #3 on: 12/07/2015 10:29:48 »
The US Food and Drug Administration has just yesterday advised makers of every over the counter analgesic except aspirin to change their label warnings. They (FDA) now say that they definitely increase your risk of a heart attack or stroke with each dose.

The FDA is a notorious toady to big Pharmaceuticals and there must be compelling evidence to make FDA show some spine. They are affronting  a humongously profitable market sector in these otc analgesics.

As for paracetamol, the therapeutic dose is so close to the toxic dose; the drug is so ubiquitous in cough syrup, analgesics, and God knows what all; and,finally, the consequences of liver toxicity are so devastating that I cannot see why it hasn't been banned years ago.

If somebody is having headaches that badly enough to need those drugs, they ought to either  change jobs and/or spouses or tale aspirin.



 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8661
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #4 on: 12/07/2015 12:21:09 »
So, what you are saying is that, because the FDA are toadying to the pharmaceutical industry they have required them to put a label on all painkilers apart from aspirin effectively saying "this stuff is poison".
So people will start using aspirin instead.
But aspirin is cheap, our of patent and almost impossible to make much profit on. (Because essentially any Tom, Dick or Harry can make it)
Why did the FDA screw their "friends" in big pharma?

Don't get me wrong, Big Pharma is corrupt and so are the FDA. They are in each other's pockets and all the rest.
But the particular example you have cited shows that , even in spite of the "old boy's network" the FDA can actually act to warn people of the risks of taking drugs.

Paracetamol is still on the market for the benefit of people who can't tolerate aspirin- for example those with ulcers, gout and other complaints.
What's much more interesting is why the version that's formulated with methionine isn't on the market.
Methionine effectively acts as an "antidote" to the liver toxicity; it isn't perfect, but it would probably save a lot of lives and a lot more misery.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4055163

So, why isn't it in every pharmacy shop?
Here's my guess; if a company sells paracetamol in the new "safer" version; they logically admit that they were knowingly selling  the "dangerous" version before (at least since that paper dated 1985).
If they admit that then the lawyers would bankrupt them
 



 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8661
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #5 on: 12/07/2015 12:23:40 »
Oh, BTW, cats are intolerant of phenolic compounds in general.
They don't cope well with phenolic disinfectants, aspirin, paracetamol and quite a lot of other materials.


 

Offline Pecos_Bill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #6 on: 12/07/2015 13:50:41 »
"Acetaminophen (Paracetamol)has an excellent safety profile when administered in proper therapeutic doses, but hepatotoxicity can occur with misuse and overdose. In the United States, acetaminophen toxicity has replaced viral hepatitis as the most common cause of acute hepatic failure and is the second most common cause of liver failure requiring transplantation."(1.)

If you are still of a mind to take Paracetamol after reading that, well, good luck.


Please don't tell me what I am saying. The FDA has a wretched history with drugs. Thalidomide, Vioxx, and Celebrex spring to mind as notorious examples. In order for this advice about otc analgesics to have come out, some mad fool must have had a sudden attack of integrity. You can bet your boots that the lobbyists and PR flacks are being given their marching orders by the suits and heels running the Pharmaceutical cartel as I write these words now. They are being told to get the FDA back in line toot sweet and to get this menace to their bottom lines to go away.

I suppose that you may have not seen somebody die from acute liver failure. I have wrapped them up and taken them down to the morgue more than once. It's not a happy experience. The thought of people dieing from that because they didn't realize they were doubling or tripling (or more) their dosage because nobody warned them that Paracetamol was also in their cough syrup & etc. is an outrage. I am talking about vulnerable seniors and kids here.

Forgive me if I sound intense, but I am also preaching to the onlookers out there in cyberspace.

"Acetaminophen is the most common drug ingredient in America. More than 600 medicines contain acetaminophen. These include both prescription medicines and medicines available without a prescription, also called “over-the-counter,” or “OTC” medicines. To prevent acetaminophen overdose, you need to be able to read labels and recognize when their medicines contain acetaminophen. The active ingredients in OTC medicines are clearly listed on the label, and the word “acetaminophen,” is listed on the front of the package or bottle and in the Active Ingredient section of the Drug Facts label." (2.)



(1.) http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/820200-overview
(2.) http://www.mustforseniors.org/acetaminophen_facts_containing.jsp
« Last Edit: 12/07/2015 14:08:02 by Pecos_Bill »
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8661
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #7 on: 12/07/2015 14:28:43 »
it is all too easy to mix medicines and end up in trouble.[/size]That's why, in the UK, all medicines containing paracetamol must have a warning that they do so. it would be better if that warning were on the outside of the pack in big letters.
It is unfortunate that not everyone reads the leaflets.
Since the advice is that "Acetaminophen (Paracetamol)has an excellent safety profile when administered in proper therapeutic doses, but hepatotoxicity can occur with misuse and overdose" and I don't plan to misuse it or overdose on it (and, it happens that my preferred diet is fairly high in methionine anyway) I don't need "luck".
All drugs are poisonous; the packs need to make that clear.
(And you are probably right about the Big Pharma response to that label)
Incidenatlly, since this thread ia about cats i don't think this discusion should continue here. Feel free to open another thread.
« Last Edit: 12/07/2015 14:30:25 by Bored chemist »
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #8 on: 12/07/2015 20:24:58 »
I have no doubt that you and I can use Paracetamol correctly, but so what? Both you and I could probably use heroin correctly.  People - old and young - keep dying a slow, painful death from it. So why use it at all?

There is a medicine available which does adequate pain relief <<without >> hepatotoxicity. You can (and so it's done) add a touch of codeine and it is still safer than paracetamol.

So tell me truthfully, do you trust your gray haired old Daddy, or that ditzy first time mother around the corner to always read the label carefully?

Life is risky enough with Obama trying to push Russia into another cold war. Fanatical terrorists, and exotic diseases springing up every year or so. I, for one, am not tired of living enough to use something that can crater my liver functions to cure a headache.

 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8661
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #9 on: 13/07/2015 20:20:46 »
My grey haired old daddy is a chemist and yes, i expect him to read the stuff on his meds. I'd be happy to see it in big letters on the outside of the pack, and happier yet to see the methionine spiked version.
Personally, if I need a painkiller I'm quite able to strip the codeine out and throw the other stuff away. (Please note that's almost certainly no longer legal)

"There is a medicine available which does adequate pain relief <<without >> hepatotoxicity. You can (and so it's done) add a touch of codeine and it is still safer than paracetamol."
Which?
In the interests of keeping this laughably "on topic" I will point out that, if you mean aspirin it's very toxic to cats.
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #10 on: 13/07/2015 23:34:33 »
Well, Hoss, we must be two different breeds of cat.

When I read. "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

It resonates in me with  the knowledge that innocent people in the UK continue to accidentally die needless slow, and painful deaths due to the nonchalant attitude towards human suffering there compared to the welfare of kitty cats. As this issue shows the true case to be.

"Deaths from paracetamol overdoses fell by 43% in England and Wales in the 11 years after the law on pack sizes was changed, according to a study." (1.)  So nowadays only 57% as many people are dying needlessly.

Goody goody for England. (Thank God Grandpa got the hell away from there after WW I)

(1.) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21370910
« Last Edit: 13/07/2015 23:36:32 by Pecos_Bill »
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4707
  • Thanked: 153 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #11 on: 14/07/2015 00:53:51 »
Death from paracetamol overdose is frequently intentional. The reduction in pack size means you have to plan your suicide over several visits to the shops. Problem is that they have also limited OTC aspirin sales so those of us who use it prophylactically against DVT have to do likewise.   
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #12 on: 14/07/2015 07:13:03 »
Frequently isn't always .... IS it?

So how many of these deaths which aren't suicides would it take before Britain stops saying, "I'm all right Jack!" (in the original sense of the idiom) about Paracetamol? That film rings as true a comment on Britain today as it did in the 60's. Else we wouldn't be having this discussion of the value of those needlessly sacrificed British human lives compared to mitigation of your lumbago, headache or other trivial wuss complaint today.

Using ASA for DVT prophylaxis went out of date with high button shoes.
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8661
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #13 on: 14/07/2015 19:35:43 »
Well, Hoss, we must be two different breeds of cat.

When I read. "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

It resonates in me with  the knowledge that innocent people in the UK continue to accidentally die needless slow, and painful deaths due to the nonchalant attitude towards human suffering there compared to the welfare of kitty cats. As this issue shows the true case to be.

"Deaths from paracetamol overdoses fell by 43% in England and Wales in the 11 years after the law on pack sizes was changed, according to a study." (1.)  So nowadays only 57% as many people are dying needlessly.

Goody goody for England. (Thank God Grandpa got the hell away from there after WW I)

(1.) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21370910

You forgot to answer the question.

I also wonder why you chose a thread about chocolate and cats to tell me that I, and others like me, should not be allowed to have access to an over the counter painkiller. That's probably too surreal to get an explanation anyway.


BTW, re. "Frequently isn't always .... IS it?" No but just "some" is enough to make your spurious maths clearly spurious.
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #14 on: 14/07/2015 20:29:02 »
And here was me thinking that Dickens wrote fiction instead of objective journalistic reporting on the true nature of British society.

And what if one of those unfortunate victims of your callous indifference should turn out to have been Little Nell?
 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8661
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #15 on: 15/07/2015 19:19:15 »
Based on what has gone before, I can't say I hold much hope of getting a sensible reply but, once again, could you actually answer the question rather than breaking out in free-form poetry?
re.
"There is a medicine available which does adequate pain relief <<without >> hepatotoxicity. You can (and so it's done) add a touch of codeine and it is still safer than paracetamol."

Which?
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #16 on: 16/07/2015 00:55:58 »
You were pretending to such a comprehensive grasp of medicinal therapeutics that I assumed you would surely know that I was talking about Aspirin w/ Codeine.

Apparently in the UK it is marketed as "Boot's Aspirin with Codeine". I will print you the "special warnings and precautions. Kindly note that they do not include a risk of acute liver failure.

"4.4 Special warnings and precautions for use
If symptoms persist consult your doctor.
There is a possible association between aspirin and Reye's syndrome when given to children. Reye's syndrome is a very rare disease, which affects the brain and liver, and can be fatal. For this reason aspirin should not be given to children aged under 16 years unless specifically indicated (e.g. for Kawasaki's disease).
Codeine should be taken with caution or in reduced doses by patients with hypotension, decreased respiratory reserve, convulsive disorders, hypothyroidism, adrenocortical insufficiency, impaired kidney or liver function, prostatic hypertrophy, shock, inflammatory or obstructive bowel disorders and myasthenia gravis.
Aspirin and other NSAIDs may cause salt and water retention and renal failure especially in patients with pre-existing renal impairment. Aspirin should be used with caution by patients with asthma, allergic disease, dehydration, glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency and the elderly.
Keep all medicines out of the reach of children." (1.)

(1.) https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/8415#CLINICAL_PRECAUTIONS

 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4707
  • Thanked: 153 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #17 on: 16/07/2015 12:02:35 »
Ah, codeine. Last time I had a really awful episode of back pain I took a couple of codeine tablets left over from a major operation. Turned out that the back pain was in fact a referred gut problem, and the codeine-induced gut spasm was so intense that I ended up in hospital after several constipated days in bed! Talk about the Relief of Mafeking....
 

Offline Pecos_Bill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #18 on: 16/07/2015 16:56:15 »
So you decided to play doctor and misused an old prescription for codeine. Then. because you had misdiagnosed yourself, you ended up in the hospital.

How is that the fault of the codeine? I expect that in Britain, also,  the standard advice is to discard old medicines immediately after use.

Well done you.

 

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8661
  • Thanked: 42 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #19 on: 19/07/2015 16:49:31 »
You were pretending to such a comprehensive grasp of medicinal therapeutics that I assumed you would surely know that I was talking about Aspirin w/ Codeine.

And I had assumed that you had read where I posted
"Paracetamol is still on the market for the benefit of people who can't tolerate aspirin- for example those with ulcers, gout and other complaints."

So, once again, why are you saying that some people should be denied an OTC painkiller on the basis that some other people have died from it?

Would you also ban cars because they have been known to kill people?

 

Offline SquarishTriangle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #20 on: 12/09/2015 13:16:13 »
I've never seen a cat present for toxicity due to chocolate ingestion. Cats just don't seem to be stupid enough to eat the amount of chocolate required to cause harm (it works out to be a reasonably large amount of chocolate, and more than even I would attempt to eat in one go). Dogs on the other hand...

Unfortunately, all too often, pet owners have been known to try to home-medicate their animals with human OTC pain relief meds (paracetamol, ibuprofen, aspirin etc.), in order to avoid going to the vet. This results in a very ill or very dead pet.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Is chocolate bad for cats like it is for dogs?
« Reply #20 on: 12/09/2015 13:16:13 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums