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Author Topic: What was before the big bang?  (Read 45049 times)

Offline dlorde

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #100 on: 07/09/2015 10:56:09 »
Where is your picking apart of my logic in order to prove it wrong?  Or...where is the logical argument of your alternative statement?  There is none.  What you are doing is just making statements and presenting them as 'fact' without showing your reasoning.  To ague against statements presented in logic, one must counter present in logic, otherwise any alternative statement one makes in response is meaningless.
I'm saying your premise is wrong. I stopped where you suggested nothing could be a state. A state is a particular condition of something, a mode or condition of being. But if you can justify nothing as a state, then I'll consider the rest of your argument. I suspect it will come down to another argument about the semantics of the word 'nothing', i.e. that we mean different things by it.
« Last Edit: 07/09/2015 11:07:24 by dlorde »
 

Offline timey

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #101 on: 07/09/2015 11:20:02 »
Again dlorde, the logic is not forthcoming... Let me show you your error.

Quote from: timey link=topic=59829.msg466467#msg4


66467 date=1441572960
...Can a state of nothing be defined as existing?
There's no such thing as a 'state' of nothing. Nothing is the negation of existence and state. As such, it is purely conceptual; it exists as a negating concept only.

Here you are contradicting yourself.  You say there is no such thing as a state of nothing and then say that a state of nothing does exist as a type of concept.  It is also a double contradiction of terms because by stating this you are agreeing to my statement of logic.

Where is your picking apart of my logic in order to prove it wrong?  Or...where is the logical argument of your alternative statement?  There is none.  What you are doing is just making statements and presenting them as 'fact' without showing your reasoning.  To ague against statements presented in logic, one must counter present in logic, otherwise any alternative statement one makes in response is meaningless.
I'm saying your premise is wrong. I stopped where you suggested nothing could be a state. A state is a particular condition of something, a mode or condition of being. But if you can justify nothing as a state, then I'll consider the rest of your argument. I suspect it will come down to another argument about the semantics of the word 'nothing', i.e. that we mean different things by it.

Here you are again contradicting yourself.  You say my premiss is wrong.  However you are stating that you stopped reading.  Then we have the double contradiction again, where you ask me to justify my premiss having stated that you stopped reading my presented argument.

Really dlorde, perhaps you might consider that the application of logic is not your forte?
 

Offline timey

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #102 on: 07/09/2015 11:49:59 »
Ok, on consideration there is one avenue of your argument that does hold merit.  Despite the fact that I have defined the statement in hand "An infinite state of nothing progressed into a state of everything infinitely", and  I do advise you to go back and read this if you plan on continuing this discussion, I 'have' neglected to define the term 'state'.

What defines something as a state?

As you have brought this up I will leave it to you to define this question and argue how nothing, which has already been defined as being something, cannot then be considered as a state...
« Last Edit: 07/09/2015 11:52:18 by timey »
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #103 on: 07/09/2015 12:37:48 »
Ok, on consideration there is one avenue of your argument that does hold merit.  Despite the fact that I have defined the statement in hand "An infinite state of nothing progressed into a state of everything infinitely", and  I do advise you to go back and read this if you plan on continuing this discussion, I 'have' neglected to define the term 'state'.

What defines something as a state?

As you have brought this up I will leave it to you to define this question and argue how nothing, which has already been defined as being something, cannot then be considered as a state...

I am surprised that anyone is still debating with you at all. Your attitude is atrocious.
 

Offline timey

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #104 on: 07/09/2015 13:07:06 »
I am surprised that anyone is still debating with you at all. Your attitude is atrocious.

Jeff, I'm truly surprised and shocked at your conjecture considering your own earlier attitude towards me.

I do not feel that I am being untruthful about dlorde's comments. He is not being logical.  End of story... and I am not the person/people talking to other posters as if they are stupid!  Or trying to lay down 'the law' about what is and what isn't!!!

(Edit...and furthermore I think it pertinent to describe to you my abject disappointment when that little rush that I felt, when I saw that you had posted, in anticipation that you had brought your obvious intelligence to bear upon the conversation in some manner that would be progressive, and therefore interesting to me, fell flat on its face. In fact, although Mordeth posts in context, with intelligence, and obviously has an appreciation of logic... it has only been Bill that has shown any talent in the 'progressive' department really)
« Last Edit: 07/09/2015 13:44:46 by timey »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #105 on: 07/09/2015 14:50:47 »
...You say there is no such thing as a state of nothing and then say that a state of nothing does exist as a type of concept.
You misconstrued my reply. Perhaps it wasn't clear - I was referring to 'nothing' as existing only as a concept, not a 'state of nothing', which is meaningless.

Quote
You say my premiss is wrong.  However you are stating that you stopped reading.  Then we have the double contradiction again, where you ask me to justify my premiss having stated that you stopped reading my presented argument.
The premise I was referring to was the implicit assumption that a 'state of nothing' has meaning. I have suggest that it doesn't because 'state' refers to something. If the premise is invalid, the rest of the argument is moot.

Quote
Really dlorde, perhaps you might consider that the application of logic is not your forte?
I'm not a logician, but I don't need to be at this level. If you can justify or explain the meaning of a 'state of nothing', I will, as I said, consider your argument that depends on it.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #106 on: 07/09/2015 15:09:12 »
As you have brought this up I will leave it to you to define this question and argue how nothing, which has already been defined as being something, cannot then be considered as a state...
I see a category error here. 'Nothing' is an abstraction; not part of physical reality, at one level explicitly by meaning, and at another implicitly as a conceptual abstraction (though it can have symbolic representation). The discussion, unless I misunderstand it, has been about physical reality - a different category.

I'm not sure how one could usefully refer to an abstraction having a state, but as far as I can see, it bears no relation to a state of the physically real. You may be able to explain it to me.

 

Offline timey

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #107 on: 07/09/2015 15:41:23 »
Actually dlorde, you are raising points that I have already defined logically.  When playing the game of logic, it is required that if you are questioning my logic, that you identify the definition that I have made, you prove it wrong and then redefine it to support your argument.

...and this is what I will commence in regards to this bit of your comment.

I see a category error here. 'Nothing' is an abstraction; not part of physical reality

For there to be nothing, everything must be physically absent, therefore by definition nothing 'is' a physicality.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #108 on: 07/09/2015 15:51:52 »
For there to be nothing, everything must be physically absent, therefore by definition nothing 'is' a physicality.
Rather, an absence or negation of physicality.

But whatever; I've said my piece. Make of it what you will.
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #109 on: 07/09/2015 22:00:13 »
Quote from: Timey
When playing the game of logic....

Unfortunately, that is what this thread has become.  Great fun if what you are looking for a chance to score points.

Quote
For there to be nothing, everything must be physically absent, therefore by definition nothing 'is' a physicality.

I doubt that there is a "non-sequitur of the year" award, but if there were this would certainly make the podium.  :)
 

Offline timey

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #110 on: 07/09/2015 22:48:31 »
Quote from: Timey
When playing the game of logic....


Unfortunately, that is what this thread has become.  Great fun if what you are looking for a chance to score points.

I disagree, what this thread has become is a place were people are getting off point.

Quote
For there to be nothing, everything must be physically absent, therefore by definition nothing 'is' a physicality.

I doubt that there is a "non-sequitur of the year" award, but if there were this would certainly make the podium.  :)

All I'm looking for is an 'interesting' conversation Bill.

If you could give a logical explanation as to why you consider the statement as 'non-sequitur' when it clearly follows on from dlorde's post?  Or if you feel the logic is flawed - then a definition of why a physical absence of something constituting nothing is not a physicality, would be nice? :)

For there to be nothing, everything must be physically absent, therefore by definition nothing 'is' a physicality.
Rather, an absence or negation of physicality.

But whatever; I've said my piece. Make of it what you will.

You are, of course entitled to your viewpoint and I respect that.  I am disappointed that you have not furthered your statement though.  As I have indicated before, it is my opinion that you are arguing the same toss of the coin as I am, only using alternative words, which makes me wonder why you are stating to me that I am wrong...
 

Offline timey

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #111 on: 08/09/2015 11:04:19 »
'Nothing is the physical result of everything being absent'

Where is the logic flawed?
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #112 on: 08/09/2015 20:50:12 »
Quote from: Timey
For there to be nothing, everything must be physically absent, therefore by definition nothing 'is' a physicality.

If everything is physically absent, everything physical must be absent, so in what sense is nothing a physicality?
 

Offline timey

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #113 on: 08/09/2015 20:59:07 »
Quote from: Timey
For there to be nothing, everything must be physically absent, therefore by definition nothing 'is' a physicality.

If everything is physically absent, everything physical must be absent, so in what sense is nothing a physicality?

Because... nothing is the physical result of everything being absent.

Edit: ...this being because everything is 'physically' not there.
« Last Edit: 08/09/2015 21:09:59 by timey »
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #114 on: 08/09/2015 21:51:51 »
Quote from: Timey
Because... nothing is the physical result of everything being absent.

Edit: ...this being because everything is 'physically' not there.

We all know where ever decreasing circles take us; so lets try getting back on track.

http://discovermagazine.com/2013/september/13-starting-point

I have not had time to read the article yet, but it looks as though it might be relevant.
 

Offline timey

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #115 on: 08/09/2015 23:16:52 »
That is an interesting link Bill.  I can identify quite strongly with a few of the ideas presented.  The most pertinent with regards to this conversation being that everything started from nothing.

Let's remember that this current consideration, in response to dlorde's suggestion, is required in order to define nothing as a physical reality, so that nothing can be attributed the status of being a state.

I'm actually quite happy to drop the word 'state' from the statement altogether:

"Infinite nothing progressed into everything infinitely"

I'm all for reductionism, but dlorde has a point and it deserves attention.

I don't feel that I am presenting a circular argument.   I leave the room, I am physically absent.  The fact of something being physically not there, is in itself a physicality.  This, I think, is an argument of symmetry.  Both aspects of this symmetry being, I do believe, a physical reality .
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #116 on: 08/09/2015 23:38:33 »
Quote from: Timey
I leave the room, I am physically absent

No argument with that, but I assume you are neither nothing, nor everything - although I could construct quite a good case for the latter :) - so it is not really relevant.
 

Offline timey

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #117 on: 08/09/2015 23:51:47 »
...and here hark at the man who accuses others of point scoring, while in presenting, is also guilty of being off point. :D

Bill, clearly you have taken my analogy as the context in this instance and I was of course referring to the symmetry of nothing in relation to everything.

Have you any comment on symmetry per chance.  That might be interesting!
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #118 on: 09/09/2015 00:23:39 »
In physics, a symmetry of a physical system is a physical or mathematical feature of the system (observed or intrinsic) that is preserved or remains unchanged under some transformation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry_(physics)

How can nothing be a symmetry of everything. It doesn't remain unchanged.
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #119 on: 09/09/2015 00:33:47 »
Quote from: Timey
and here hark at the man who accuses others of point scoring,

Someone accused someone else of point scoring?  Where would that have been?
 

Offline timey

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #120 on: 09/09/2015 00:49:21 »
Quote from: Timey
and here hark at the man who accuses others of point scoring,

Someone accused someone else of point scoring?  Where would that have been?

Unfortunately, that is what this thread has become.  Great fun if what you are looking for a chance to score points.

That would be you Bill.

What's happened?  You showed such promise with regards to progressive thought structures earlier in the thread.
 

Offline timey

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #121 on: 09/09/2015 02:25:00 »
In physics, a symmetry of a physical system is a physical or mathematical feature of the system (observed or intrinsic) that is preserved or remains unchanged under some transformation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry_(physics)

How can nothing be a symmetry of everything. It doesn't remain unchanged.

Just saw this one Jeff...  Interesting!

But we are talking about a nothing that does become changed.

"What was before the Big Bang?"

So, by definition of nothing transforming into everything, symmetry is achieved. Edit: Nothing remains unchanged regarding nothing as a conceptual reality, in that nothing is still nothing.  It's just that everything has now taken its place.
« Last Edit: 09/09/2015 02:30:50 by timey »
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #122 on: 09/09/2015 04:08:21 »
Quote from: Timey
That would be you Bill.

You really should read what people write before you make accusations. 
 

Offline timey

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #123 on: 09/09/2015 11:46:39 »
Quote from: Timey
That would be you Bill.

You really should read what people write before you make accusations.

Ok then.  Let's do just that...

Unfortunately, that is what this thread has become.  Great fun if what you are looking for a chance to score points.

You start out with the word 'unfortunately', this indicating that what is to come is in the negative.  Because you do not follow this word with 'I', you negate yourself of any responsibility for the context.
The context is that the thread has become, to its detriment, a place of opportunity to score points.
Therefore you are suggesting that someone else is responsible for rendering this thread as such.  This can be classed as an accusation,

'My' use of the word 'accuse' was made in lightheartedness.  My intention to show you that the fact of your mention of 'non sequitur' arguments minus any relevant definition of them being so, my winning a place on a 'podium', and your taking my analogies out of context and presenting them as jibes at my person... really is displaying 'the' behaviour' that you have written about, and written about in the context of someone else doing it.

I want to talk about what may or may not have been before the Big Bang Bill.

If your intention is to be derogatory, I can tell you I do not appreciate it... it's boring!
Or if you are wanting to 'jibe' with me, then why don't you come down "On the 'even' lighter side"... and we can do so in 'fun' and 'ridiculousness'.  I certainly have no wish to 'argue' anything with you here other than the subject matter, this being 'what was before the Big Bang'!
« Last Edit: 09/09/2015 11:50:41 by timey »
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #124 on: 09/09/2015 14:56:25 »
Quote from: Timey
You start out with the word 'unfortunately', this indicating that what is to come is in the negative.  Because you do not follow this word with 'I', you negate yourself of any responsibility for the context.

I accept responsibility for anything I write; don’t you?

Quote from: Timey
Therefore you are suggesting that someone else is responsible for rendering this thread as such.  This can be classed as an accusation,

That is your interpretation.  Take responsibility for it.

In what context can your interpretation of what you claim to be my suggestion be considered an accusation?

Quote from: Timey
'My' use of the word 'accuse' was made in lightheartedness

Light-hearted, or not, it behoves one to be accurate.

Quote from: Timey
If your intention is to be derogatory, I can tell you I do not appreciate it... it's boring!

My comment was pertinent to the thread, and was not personal.  I invite you to look at as many of my posts, in this and other threads, as you choose.  I think you would have to agree that “ad hominem” derogatory attacks are not my style. 

Quote from: Timey
I want to talk about what may or may not have been before the Big Bang Bill.

Then perhaps we would have more success if we were to avoid “playing the game of logic”, or any other game.

I suggest we draw a line at this point and return to the subject we, apparently, all want to discuss.   
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #124 on: 09/09/2015 14:56:25 »

 

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