# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: What was before the big bang?  (Read 45001 times)

#### Bill S

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #275 on: 28/09/2015 21:30:37 »
Thanks Dlorde, that was, sort of, what I meant when I said "the special path the ISS takes makes conditions there almost zero gravity", but you post was much clearer.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #276 on: 28/09/2015 21:49:37 »
An object cannot orbit at escape velocity. That is why it is called escape velocity.

#### timey

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #277 on: 28/09/2015 22:18:34 »

An object that is in orbit has to remain at a certain velocity to remain in orbit.  That is the momentum I mean.  I understand that escape velocity consists of an equal of gravity potential and kinetic energy.

Back to the interesting bits now?

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #278 on: 28/09/2015 22:36:59 »

An object that is in orbit has to remain at a certain velocity to remain in orbit.  That is the momentum I mean.  I understand that escape velocity consists of an equal of gravity potential and kinetic energy.

Back to the interesting bits now?

OK. Say we have velocity v that a mass m is moving at. Then momentum is m times v. Just to clarify. To get kinetic energy the expression is (1/2) times m times v squared. That is (1/2)mv^2. The integral of momentum with respect to velocity is therefore kinetic energy.

#### timey

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #279 on: 28/09/2015 22:57:04 »
Ok, I can follow that Jeff, but to understand its relevance I need you to put it into some kind of context.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #280 on: 28/09/2015 23:02:37 »
Make sure there is not a wall in front of you if you have a lot of kinetic energy.

#### timey

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #281 on: 28/09/2015 23:41:31 »
In context with regards to time dilation, or what came before the Big Bang
(You are most welcome to post down on 'On the Even Lighter Side' if you like ;). )

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #282 on: 28/09/2015 23:43:56 »
Well if you hit the wall there will definitely be a big bang.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #283 on: 29/09/2015 00:16:45 »
Take kinetic energy. You could state it as to get an increase in relativistic mass. However is this true of gravitation?

Proper time

Proper distance

So instantaneous velocity

Then

The kinetic energy will be

Since all particles experience the same effect then it may be unwise to apply relativistic mass in this case. Otherwise there would be infinite amounts of mass at the event horizon of a black hole.

Is that enough context?

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #284 on: 29/09/2015 00:42:09 »

#### timey

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #285 on: 29/09/2015 01:03:12 »
Si si señor, sin problemo,..

Orbit, escape velocity, relativistic mass... Not part of the point of the conversation, not sure why you think it relevant or why that link is helpful

Bored now!

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #286 on: 29/09/2015 01:06:28 »
Because ultimately there needs to be a repulsive force to initiate a big bang. That may well be gravity itself.

#### timey

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #287 on: 29/09/2015 01:33:46 »
Cool, cool.  Now that you have made me aware that you have initiated a change of subject matter to the conversation, and are not in fact referring to any part of what Bill and I were discussing.  Well, you know, to say so, it's helpful and indicative of the relevance of the context.  You might have said so in the first place and saved us some time. (Excuse the pun)

Sounds like an interesting idea... I'll leave you to it!

#### Bill S

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #288 on: 29/09/2015 04:09:43 »
Back to #222, if that's OK.

You say that at zero gravity time stops..  Does everything stop with it?  If so, how does time start again?
If not, how can change occur without time in which to accomplish that change?

#### PmbPhy

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #289 on: 29/09/2015 04:37:42 »
Quote from: Bill S
You say that at zero gravity time stops..
Who made this assertion? Its wrong. If that's someone's theory then it's not supposed to be posted here. That's what the New Theories forum. One mistake is that it makes no sense to refer to zero gravity since the term gravity is vague. It's either the gravitational force or the gravitational potential, not simply "gravity."

The rate at which a clock ticks depends on the difference in the gravitational potential between the clock and the observer. For that reason it cannot be said that zero gravity time stops. If you're far away from any gravitational source such as in-between star systems then the gravitational potential is zero there as is the gravitational force.

#### timey

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #290 on: 29/09/2015 11:45:58 »
Back to #222, if that's OK.

You say that at zero gravity time stops..  Does everything stop with it?  If so, how does time start again?
If not, how can change occur without time in which to accomplish that change?

Regarding your question and post: 222, I've sent you a pm.

#### PmbPhy

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #291 on: 29/09/2015 13:06:43 »
Quote from: Aquarius
The big bang never happened.
While that may be true you act like you know that as a fact. What's your argument for your assertion?

Alan Guth has something to say on this subject. See: http://www.newenglandphysics.org/common_misconceptions/DSC_0005.MOV

#### Bill S

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #292 on: 29/09/2015 18:17:10 »
Quote from: Pete
Who made this assertion? Its wrong. If that's someone's theory then it's not supposed to be posted here. That's what the New Theories forum.

Pete, I included the reference to #222 so that others would have the context for my question.

I can understand that experts like you might find this sort of thread a bit taxing on the patience, but the value for us hitch-hikers is that it can sharpen our understanding.  When meeting a non-standard idea we have to ask ourselves such questions as: Is this rubbish, or is there some underlying science?  Or: Confronted with this, what basic knowledge do I need to counter it?

As far as the “New Theories” comment is concerned; you are probably right, but it does emerge quite naturally from the OP, which in itself, is inclined to invite speculation.

Is it a new theory?  The idea of time stopping is certainly not new.  A quick look at the threads in this forum would support that.  The zero gravity idea is not found as commonly, but is out there.

I think it was you who said recently that for an idea to be classed as a scientific theory it had to be supported by rigorous maths.  Vikki (Timey) has pointed to the lack of mathematical backing in her ideas, and said that having the ideas subjected to mathematical scrutiny is part of her reason for coming to TNS.

On the basis of this, it’s probably fair to say that her idea is neither new, nor a theory.

You have the knowledge, Pete, and usually show the patience necessary to help amateurs; why not give #222, which seems to be a brief overview of Vikki’s thoughts, a “professional once-over”?  Who knows, it might even bring her back to the forum.

#### Davidlawrencekellam

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #293 on: 30/09/2015 13:04:32 »
Good morning:  Well, what was before the Big Bang? But first, we need to examine what happened prior to the Large Raipd Expansion which we call the Big Bang.  The singularity?  The singularity translated means "we don't know anything and we can't explain it" so we call it the singularity.  What existed prior to the big bang was what I label a "plasma" that consisted of anti-matter and was composed of massive amounts and had it's own particular characteristics which I will go into at a later time as I am under the gun this morning for time.  In order to be brief I will be explaining the following in subsequent posts.

1,  There was no singularity  2. The big bang was a rapid expansion/conversion of anti matter to matter, not all of which converted-this will be linked to the expanding universe. 3. The universe will not continue to expand as anti matter is a weaker (although more abundant) force than gravity and it has a shorter existence in its strongest form. 4. Not all anti matter was converted at the big bang event, which will explain why portions of the universe will be expanding at different rates. 5.Black holes do indeed allow for escape as we should all now know, and in the final stages of super massive black holes (well into the future as none exist currently) they create anti-matter. Think about it, we are trying to get anti-matter from matter now aren't we? 6. Nature and the natural order of things, once discovered, make logical sense.  Look at the mysteries of history and you will find that once they are discovered or understood, at the end of the day thay make perfect sense. There is much more to the above however  I am obligated to appear at another place.    Dave Lawrence Kellam

#### Bill S

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #294 on: 30/09/2015 14:52:43 »
Hi David, welcome.

It seems you have some interesting and revolutionary ideas.  Although, obviously, they are linked to this thread, you might be wise to take them straight into "New Theories" to avoid criticism.

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##### Re: What was before the big bang?
« Reply #294 on: 30/09/2015 14:52:43 »