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Author Topic: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?  (Read 35294 times)

Online alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #100 on: 13/09/2015 10:22:24 »
If you want to sling mud at "British" science by quoting Wakefield, may I suggest a strong dose of Tuskegee as an antidote? Or is deliberate harm and negligence too tangential to be weighed against pathetic fraud? OK, let's get back to surgery:

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This transorbital lobotomy method did not require a neurosurgeon and could be performed outside of an operating room without the use of anesthesia by using electroconvulsive therapy to induce seizure. The modifications to his lobotomy allowed Freeman to broaden the use of the surgery, which could be performed in psychiatric hospitals throughout the United States that were overpopulated and understaffed. In 1950 Walter Freeman's longtime partner James Watts left their practice and split from Freeman due to his opposition to the cruelty and overuse of the transorbital lobotomy.

How did he get away with it? Well,

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Walter J. Freeman was born on November 14, 1895 to a privileged family. He was raised in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania by his parents. Freeman was also known for being a bit of an oddball and he complemented his theatrical approach to demonstrating surgery by sporting a cane, goatee, and a wide-brimmed hat.

Of course this couldn't happen in a perfect classless democracy like the USA, could it? I can't use the word "meritocracy" because that would imply some objective measure of performance, to which you would probably object.

By the way, have you actually read the paper yet?

Come on, Bill, you can do better than your friend Uhuru's ravings.
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #101 on: 14/09/2015 13:03:09 »
I deleted a block of messages that read like a schoolyard exercise in name-calling.
I left just enough to show that scientific fraud can occur on both sides of the pond. 
But the focus here should be identifying any problems with the paper under discussion, or twin studies in general. Mod.
 

Offline ProjectSailor

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #102 on: 14/09/2015 14:30:09 »
I lost the thread many times through this post.. Thanks peco for tarring all british people with the same brush, this book you are reading is certainly having an impact on your thought processes.. but beyond that I actually half agree with you.

Genetics does not and will not affect intelligence or capability. If this were true we would still live in caves hitting each other with clubs over who's class system is most ridiculous.

Environment is the prime mover.. I am sure someone much cleverer than i has done a paper on this sort of thing..

One thing I cannot classify is 'mindset?' if thats the right word.. a family who instill a hardworking 'mindset?' into their child and make them believe the world is their oyster will get a bright and intelligent child. (not always true but close enough to kow it is a main contributing factor) whether they are rich or poor makes a huge difference too.. but I believe this to be another 'mindset?' factor, where the poor kids lack ambition maybe, or get too cynical too young from watching their parents struggle.

But I know one thing.. Intelligent parents do not always have intelligent kids.. and siblings can have a wide range of abilities from first class maths degrees to no gcse's and a criminal record as in my family.

I knew three sets of twins in my school.. and the only reason they all passed their gcse's with similar graes was because they copied each other on the coursework.. and studied together and because they were studying the same subjects.. yes they progressed at the same rate.. only twins and very very rare fraternals can actually do this. Hence the 'genetic' link is more like an age gap link... which is a bit stupid to put in a report.. 'is age a factor in your gcse grade'

But tbh the whole argument is pointless since your GCSE grades mean absolutely nothing to your intelligence or capability since they have constantly catered for the lowest denominator and are racing to the bottom with the rest of the world competing for headlines.
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #103 on: 14/09/2015 15:21:18 »
Readers,

About 200 words of my evidence has once again been erased by the people running the naked scientist.

Dr. Plomin's research remains un-reproduced and thus unconfirmed by rational men and women.

What is not open to question here is the dogged effort of the people running the naked scientists to shove it out into the world as the gospel truth.

The world has learned that when you accept such  British "science" at face value, you are taking your chances.

I have previously voiced my concern that this "science news" of this 2 year old paper may be politically influenced. It is of note that yesterday Mr. Corbyn was elected to lead the Labor party.

I will post this in hopes that enough people can read it before it is hidden from their view.

Although the best cyber-security Britain has is now in use to silence Pecos_Bill's dissent - and although I probably face the same fate --in the words of General MacArthur, "I shall return" - within 6 months.

The only way they could prevent that is to shut down this farce completely. That would be bad, but still better than this disgusting donkey show.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #104 on: 14/09/2015 19:54:34 »
"I have previously voiced my concern that this "science news" of this 2 year old paper may be politically influenced. It is of note that yesterday Mr. Corbyn was elected to lead the Labor party."
The election may well be noteworthy (and I for one am glad of it) but it has nothing to do with the topic.
And the same was true of your 200 words of so called "evidence".
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #105 on: 14/09/2015 19:57:32 »

... If this were true we would still live in caves ...
Why?
 

Online alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #106 on: 14/09/2015 20:02:45 »

But tbh the whole argument is pointless since your GCSE grades mean absolutely nothing to your intelligence or capability

Which is why the paper only discussed GCSE grades, not intelligence or capability. 

Quote
since they have constantly catered for the lowest denominator and are racing to the bottom with the rest of the world competing for headlines.

I'd agree. It was pointed out in 1999 that the model answers to a 1969 Ordinary level (now GCSE. taken at age 16 or thereabouts) physics paper would have merited a good pass at Advanced level (university entrance, age 18) 30 years later.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #107 on: 14/09/2015 20:48:44 »
The dumbing down of exams is an interesting topic in it's own right. But, since the paper that opened this thread is based on comparisons within one year so it's irrelevant.
Also, (almost always) the twins will have sat exactly the same paper and it will have been marked by the same person,  yet the differences in scores were not the same.
 

Online alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #108 on: 15/09/2015 09:01:37 »
Here's a fact that may be of interest to those who argue that "the Plomin paper" is an attempt to justify some obnoxious and uniquely British social phenomenon. Robert Plomin is an American.
 

Offline ProjectSailor

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #109 on: 15/09/2015 09:15:36 »

... If this were true we would still live in caves ...
Why?

If intelligence was genetically linked then there would be no net gain of intelligence over time and without better 'intelligence genes' all generations would eventually be hardwired to the same level of intelligence.. hence no one would think 'hey why don't we build our own caves and figure out a way to do it'.
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #110 on: 15/09/2015 12:22:45 »
Quote from: ProjectSailor
If intelligence was genetically linked then there would be no net gain of intelligence over time
This assertion presupposes that everyone is cloned (ie essentially the same genetics as their parent).

However, sexual reproduction results in mixing the parental genes in the children. If there is a slight increase in the number of children from those with higher intelligence, then you would expect that genes related to higher intelligence would gradually become more common in the population. This might occur if more intelligent people were better paid & nourished, suffered fewer accidents, or were more attractive to the opposite sex, for example. 

This genetic drift is not enough to explain the Flynn effect, which saw the IQ scores of some populations increasing at quite rapid rates in the 20th Century. Causes are mysterious, but could be due to better education, nutrition or medical care. There are some hints that this effect has stalled, or even gone backwards in the 21st century (some blame computer games or the education system again...)
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #111 on: 15/09/2015 16:09:02 »
If intelligence had a preponderant dependence on inheritance then Regression to mediocrity would dictate that intelligence would decrease.

Quote
The concept of regression comes from genetics and was popularized by Sir Francis Galton during the late 19th century with the publication of Regression towards mediocrity in hereditary stature.  [1.]


If the Flynn effect has caused an increase in British IQ's (which tourists passing near a British pub on any Friday evening could not be blamed for doubting) then how do you explain the singular occurrence that the naked scientist has presented this 2 year old same paper by Plomin - albeit, wearing a different shirt - here in the next month and apparently thinks it can be passed of as science news among the rubes?  (Cf: What can twins tell us about genetics, intelligence, and more?)



[1.] Galton, F. (1886). "Regression towards mediocrity in hereditary stature". The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland 15: 246263. doi:10.2307/2841583
« Last Edit: 15/09/2015 16:15:56 by Franklin_Uhuru »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #112 on: 15/09/2015 19:26:45 »

... If this were true we would still live in caves ...
Why?

If intelligence was genetically linked then there would be no net gain of intelligence over time and without better 'intelligence genes' all generations would eventually be hardwired to the same level of intelligence.. hence no one would think 'hey why don't we build our own caves and figure out a way to do it'.
Nonsense.
I flatter myself perhaps, but I believe that humans are the most intelligent species on the planner (though I accept the point about pubs on a Friday night).
How did we get that way?
The only credible answer is evolution- the less intelligent  didn't do so well and didn't  raise so many children and grandchildren.

If your idea was true then we would all have the same coloured eyes because that's a clearly genetic trait.

It may be true that "there would be no net gain of intelligence over time and without better 'intelligence genes' all generations would eventually be hardwired "
but that shows the exact opposite of what you claim.
We are more intelligent than our distant ancestors- the protohuman forbears of us, the chimps and so on- and the reason for that is precisely because we have, as you put it ' better 'intelligence genes' '.

Those genes are heritable and if some people have a slightly better set than others, perhaps it would explain why they (and their identical twin) do well in exams compared to another pair of twins who do less well because they have the misfortune to have  a less proficient set of "intelligence genes".
(And i accept there's a lot more to intelligence than exam scores, but it's difficult to say they are uncorrelated.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #113 on: 15/09/2015 19:28:04 »
If intelligence had a preponderant dependence on inheritance then...


how fortunate then, that nobody said that it did.
Why the strawman?
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #114 on: 15/09/2015 22:41:46 »
Quote from: Franklin_Uhuru
If intelligence had a preponderant dependence on inheritance then Regression to mediocrity would dictate that intelligence would decrease
.
The term "mediocrity" as used by Galton does not mean "inferior", but "average", and so the correct statistical term is "regression to the mean" (where mean = average). 

So the children of an extreme outlier like Einstein are unlikely to also be an extreme outlier, but probably closer to the average. Simultaneously, children of people closer to the average will sometimes produce an extreme outlier (like an Einstein).

So regression to the mean does not mean a general reduction in intelligence, but a sustaining of the distribution; That is, if there were no other factors at play (like young men who think they can drive safely at 150 mph after a Friday night at the pub).
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #115 on: 15/09/2015 22:46:23 »
Do you assert therefore that these twins GCSE scores are not  necessarily the result of their inherited intelligence? Could it possibly be that they live in the same house, eat the same food, are taken to the same museums, and etc. etc. etc. ?

What else then, Sir? Have these twins inherited clairvoyance or some other extra sensory perception? Were they getting answers from the "other side"?

Do they search test takers to ensure they don't sneak a ouija board into the test site?

Have you discovered ectoplasmic cheating in Btitain?

« Last Edit: 15/09/2015 23:10:15 by Franklin_Uhuru »
 

Online alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #116 on: 15/09/2015 23:02:42 »
Quote
Could it possibly be that they live in the same house, eat the same food, are taken to the same museums, and etc. etc. etc. ?

You are halfway to understanding the paper!
« Last Edit: 15/09/2015 23:05:49 by alancalverd »
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #117 on: 15/09/2015 23:05:58 »
...
As to regression to mediocrity in the matter of intelligence, it shows that you cannot predict higher intelligence in children based on their parents' intelligence unless you look at sub-normal intelligence of the parents.

Therefore, this research has no practical application to predicting GCSE scores due to inheritance. It has been rather useful in making the Daily Mail to claim that predictive power , hasn't it?
...
Conspiracy theories and speculation about political bias are now in a separate thread - see New Theories.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2015 12:04:36 by evan_au »
 

Online alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #118 on: 15/09/2015 23:15:03 »

If intelligence was genetically linked then there would be no net gain of intelligence over time and without better 'intelligence genes' all generations would eventually be hardwired to the same level of intelligence.. hence no one would think 'hey why don't we build our own caves and figure out a way to do it'.

We seem to think that height and skin color are genetically linked, yet successive generations tend to diverge, to the extent that homo sapiens comes in quite a variety of distinct local forms. Some of us think this is due to environmental and social selection generating evolutionary branches from a common but slightly plastic genome, others think it is the intentional design of a supreme being. If regression to the mean is dominant, surely we'd all look like Australopithecus or Lucy. So either it isn't, or Darwin was wrong.
 

Online alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #119 on: 15/09/2015 23:40:51 »
Therefore, this research has no practical application to predicting GCSE scores due to inheritance. It has been rather useful in making the Daily Mail to claim that predictive power , hasn't it?

Cut to the chase: there is no practical value whatever in predicting GCSE scores by any means, there never was, and there never will be. The examination is definitive, and unless you failed spectacularly on the day because the cat died (sh1t happens, which is why you can retake GCSEs), no employer cares about any third party prediction.

Tip: If you want to be taken seriously this side of the Atlantic, don't quote the Daily Mail as source material, or even admit to reading it.

Quote
Therefore, to return to my original question, why are you and the rest of the naked scientists here beavering away to present it twice - (2 years old research as it ever was) as the hot news of the day?

I can't speak for the program makers but I can offer two possible answers to the question: (a) space filling - it's utterly boring and pointless research but pretty easy to interview anyone working in London,  but (b) rather like the Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887, it is a classic null test of an otherwise intractable hypothesis, and therefore likely to be quoted many more times. In short: along with the Guinness Book of Records, it may become the definitive answer to a completely useless but often-asked question. Apologies to Michelson and Morley, whose question was of fundamental importance.   
« Last Edit: 15/09/2015 23:43:11 by alancalverd »
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #120 on: 16/09/2015 01:18:30 »
Dr. Plomin might have chosen to use behavioral genetics to throw light on pedophilia, schizophrenia, serial murderers, manic- depressive illness -- any number of satanic afflictions on suffering humanity.

Instead he used it to see if inheritance plays a roll in school success. He did that in England with its long dolorous history of class ridden oppression of the common man. Further, make any attempt to question the real (perhaps subconscious) reason for this and one is met with shocked outrage --- and banishment from the realm -- at least attempted banishment.

Conspiracy theories and speculation about political bias are now in a separate thread - see New Theories - Mod.
Meanwhile Pedophilia continues to menace children, Schizophrenics may easily be found wandering the streets -often eating out of garbage cans, and Manic-depressives still hit the wall and hang themselves.      So it goes. It is an outrage - a real outrage - to any Registered Nurse.

What a country.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2015 12:07:13 by evan_au »
 

Online alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #121 on: 16/09/2015 06:46:57 »
Ah, Mr Uhuru, how lucky you are to live in a classless egalitarian society where the National Guard had to accompany a little child to school because her grandparents had been slaves, and where schoolkids still murder their classmates with automatic rifles. How comforting it must be to sit in Elysium and criticise a paper you haven't read, whilst ascribing all sorts of terrible motives to one of your countrymen - all of whom, your friend Pecos insists, would run a mile from it.

If only there were no paedophiles in California....

Quote
4 Apr 2013 - California Congresswoman Jackie Speier, Democrat, wants to federalize a state law that protects pedophiles.

That's the way to deal with a problem - legalise it out of existence!

I can't answer why Plomin has chosen to make a career out of studying child psychology, but all sorts of people make a living doing things that others might consider pointless, or at least of minimal urgency. I recently had a delightful dinner with a lady who has spent her adult life interpreting the theology of a 15th century Dutch nun's poems. But as your countryman Robert Wilson said of particle physics

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In that sense, this new knowledge has all to do with honor and country but it has nothing to do directly with defending our country except to help make it worth defending.
« Last Edit: 16/09/2015 07:48:40 by chris »
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #122 on: 16/09/2015 17:43:39 »
I am replacing the entry which the "gentlemen" of the naked scientists were afraid to let you see...without telling you. I will continue to do so until I am silenced by these people. However, repression will not silence the voice of humanity here or anywhere else...you can take that to the bank.

*******************
I will not answer this "gentleman's" tirade. However, since the mirror I held up to him obviously cut so deeply I will rephrase it again. Maybe it will replenish the springs of humanity among some of you people.

While the oozing wounds of Britain's (Yes and America and doubtless even in Arcadia) ooze and fester, Dr. Plomin and his naked scientist fans here have chosen to spend their coin worrying about the inheritance of GCSE scores. For is that not the title you people have given it here?.

They could have spent it looking into the etiology of mental illness but they didn't. What? Is this the world of 2015 or naked scientist cloud coo-coo land?

The supposed inheritance of school performance was more important to them than addressing the causes of so much quotidian human anguish to Dr Chris and his Merrie band. I call that strong work, indeed.

Quote

    And someone says, "You're in the wrong place, my friend, you
    Better leave"
    And the only sound that's left after the ambulances go
    Is Cinderella sweeping up on Desolation Row


That is poetry you know. A person among you has disparaged my previous attempt to quote T.S. Elliot to reach some iota of humanity among you folks.

Hope springs eternal..
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #123 on: 16/09/2015 18:55:12 »
Do you assert therefore that these twins GCSE scores are not  necessarily the result of their inherited intelligence? Could it possibly be that they live in the same house, eat the same food, are taken to the same museums, and etc. etc. etc. ?

OK, so you are making progress.
The twins' results are similar because they share the same upbringing etc. Everybody expected that.
That's one vitally important part of the research.
Now,  Let's see if you can get to grips with the other thing they found in their research.
The difference in scores between the fraternal twins was bigger than the difference in scores between pairs of identical twins.


Do you understand that?
There's a difference between identical twins and non- identical twins.
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #124 on: 16/09/2015 20:02:47 »
I have understood this research from its initial presentation here  -- including its assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup.

What I do not understand is why none of you male "scientists" see the inherently sexist assumption in this "research"....assuming you are not benighted, testosterone blinded  throwbacks.

Please limit conspiracy theories and speculation about political bias to New Theories - Mod.

What I do understand is that scarce medical research funds were squandered on this daft and questionable research while British ( and other)  people continue to suffer from any number of  mental and physical afflictions whose genetic interactions are real and matter.

« Last Edit: 16/09/2015 22:20:20 by evan_au »
 

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
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