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Author Topic: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?  (Read 35184 times)

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #125 on: 16/09/2015 21:47:01 »
I have understood this research from its initial presentation here  -- including its assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup.

You seem to have scooped today's irony prize.
No such assumption is made.
They say that the scores are different and that you need to account for that because roughly half of fraternal twins are not the same sex, but identical twins are always the same sex.
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #126 on: 16/09/2015 23:35:26 »
I also said that the sexist discrimination was apparent to anyone who is not a testosterone-ridden throwback. Is that not so, Mister?

I have worked with and for other women RN's all my adult life. I am no stranger to the devious lengths men go to in order to keep their foot on their throats. Do you understand that, Mister?

But you are obviously using this to distract people from my main point which I will quote again..since you are so transparently trying on these antics to obscure it.

Wait for it...

What I do understand is that scarce medical research funds were squandered on this daft and questionable research while British ( and other)  people continue to suffer from any number of  mental and physical afflictions whose genetic interactions are real and matter.

 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #127 on: 17/09/2015 17:47:16 »
I have understood this research from its initial presentation here  -- including its assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup.

I don't know where you got this from. It certainly isn't suggested in the paper.

There is a well-known measurable difference between boys' and girls' scores in different GCSE subjects. There are well-known chromosomal differences between boys and girls. Correlation does not imply causation, but where it is a statistically significant confounding factor, it is worthwhile adjusting the actual subject scores accordingly before comparing identical twins' score differences with those of fraternal twins. Which is what they did, because otherwise the unadjusted score differences of different-sex fraternals would have been greater than those of same-sex fraternals.

If you are looking for a small unknown, it's always worthwhile correcting for all the known knowns.

Daft? Yes. Harmful? No. My pianist has a PhD based on the sexual behaviour of African sparrows. There being no great shortage of African sparrows, nor any great reluctance of African sparrows to indulge in sexual behaviour, you might ask why his sponsors bothered, but then why climb a mountain or fly to the Moon? Indeed with a precarious agriculture on the verge of collapse and imminent flooding of half the country, why send a cricket team to the World Cup? I'm sure our Bangladeshi correspondents have a view on the subject, and I think it's something to do with "just for fun".

Where I disagree with the paper is in its conclusions and discussion. The authors use the once-fashionable mistranslation of educare as "to bring out" as though it means to expose a child's inherent (dare I use the word?) talents and abilities. In my day, educare meant "to lead  out". I don't think Caesar's  officers were particularly concerned with developing their troops' individual abilities to sing or paint, but rather wanted to extricate them from an ambush or a bog, and thus recruited local scouts to educare the milites. But that was in the days of O level Latin: I'm sure it has all been dumbed down for GCSE. 
« Last Edit: 17/09/2015 18:04:39 by alancalverd »
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #128 on: 17/09/2015 18:26:30 »
Perhaps you think that if you can keep talking long enough nobody who has outgrown the Victorian concept of women will remember my point, Mister.

Once again ..

What I do understand is that scarce medical research funds were squandered on this daft and questionable research while British ( and other)  people continue to suffer from any number of  mental and physical afflictions whose genetic interactions are real and matter.

Today in this forum people -- real people --are seeking help for their fibromyalgia, amputations, and tinnitus. Fibromyalgia alone is a cause of significant cost and disability.

Yet the money which might have been used to seek help for these people was squandered by this very questionable and unconfirmed "research" which has not produced one miniscule iota of benefit to the human race -- nor, never will.

Take a bow, Mister
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #129 on: 17/09/2015 19:00:00 »
Perhaps you could enlilghten us with your priority list of all academic research?

I have agreed with you from the outset that there was no conceivable practical value to this work, but I am aware that the US Academy of Sciences told the Wright Brothers that there was no conceivable military use for the airplane, and that the laser which reads your CDs was for at least a decade nothing more than an academic solution to a nonexistent question. Nevertheless we now know that identical twins score closer than fraternal twins, heavier-than-air flying machines play a major part in modern warfare, and utterly pointless music can be played in your car whilst millions are starving.     
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #130 on: 17/09/2015 22:00:57 »
I also said that the sexist discrimination was apparent to anyone who is not a testosterone-ridden throwback. Is that not so, Mister?

Come off it Bill, it isn't apparent. It's imaginary.
If you disagree, just quote the part from the paper where they say it.
Show us the " assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup."

That shouldn't be difficult and it would completely show your point and demonstrate the superiority of your view.


Oh, BTW, there's a perfectly valid (if not really medical) reason for doing this sort of research.
You may be aware that Binet's original work on quantifying intelligence was done so that those who needed help could be identified and helped.

Just because some utter ***** misused this sort of work in a pretended justification of eugenics or racism, doesn't mean that the actual science is in any way "bad" or "evil".
It remains, as I pointed out before, the best weapon against the things you say you hate.
Why not climb back down off your high horse, read the paper and realise that you can use the results to crush those damnable bastards.
« Last Edit: 18/09/2015 11:33:42 by evan_au »
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #131 on: 17/09/2015 23:24:28 »
This is a family forum - as the rules attest. Even though you are one of the moderator's little pals, kindly avoid using your garbage mouth like that again, Mister. You may have noticed that I am able to use quite colorful - but clean -- imagery without your gutter vocabulary. So take a hint, Buster.

Nevertheless, your bad manners have failed  (again) to distract me from my point....

This ... paper has produced no benefit to mankind except to sell newspapers of a dodgy type. Don't give me that tap dance about Binet. What is the use of this schlock to 21st century Britain -- or the world? Meanwhile. this dog has eaten up scarce medical research dollars and those valid areas of research that have a chance of benefiting people -- have (Wait for it!) ---gone wanting for funds.
« Last Edit: 18/09/2015 11:38:38 by evan_au »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #132 on: 17/09/2015 23:47:41 »
As you well know, vast sums of research money are wasted on all sorts of nonsense. Unfortunately, once a sector budget has been allocated in a funding body, it's very difficult to vire funds to a more deserving sector, especially if you haven't received any grant applications in that sector. But if you don't spend the money within the financial year, you lose it and next year's budget gets reduced.

From the grant-givers' perspective, we have to judge every application on its own merits of soundness, feasibility, etc. Where there is no actual product or procedure to be developed, the subject of utility is not discussed.

Best advice I was given as an applicant was to spend my entire first-year capital allocation within 6 months at most. That way the Powers that Be think you are working efficiently to a strict plan, give you more money next year, and also scrape this year's barrel for unspent cash from other people's budgets. 

For what it's worth, in the last 10 years of reviewing research proposals I have only considered about two out of 200 applications from universities to be worthwhile (or even spelled correctly), whilst around 95% of those from industrial and clinical applicants were likely to actually benefit mankind. 

 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #133 on: 18/09/2015 07:05:24 »
If, as you say, vast sums of medical research money are wasted because you don't receive grant proposals from valid and deserving disease researchers  --[A.] then you obviously have failed to issue requests for proposals for valid medical research. And [B.] why are you issuing those funds unless to maintain a charade that you have spent the peoples' tax money wisely...and need more again in the next year?
...
Part of my job when I was TB-HIV counselor was to write the yearly grant renewal to extend the funding another year.

Therefore, I know from personal experience that this Plomin -or one of his graduate student coolies - must have burned midnight oil to get the grant proposal for this nonsense whipped together in some manner that would cut your low standards of the mustard.. Your claim that the funding for this study couldn't feasibly have been denied is only believable for persons whose Mommy reads them a story before bed time.

So pardon me while I fall down laughing.
« Last Edit: 18/09/2015 11:40:02 by evan_au »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #134 on: 18/09/2015 08:28:59 »
Nothing new or unusual about UK funding bodies. The Pyramids and the Taj Mahal were built whilst peasants starved - indeed by starving peasants. Homo sapiens is a very unsatisfactory species.
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #135 on: 18/09/2015 10:09:24 »
I am 70 years old. I have seen much adversity, wickedness, and suffering in this world but I have never succumbed to such ... indifference to integrity, rectitude, and the scout law as uttered here by this "hero member".

The difficult thing about the scout law is that you must continue its guidance after you are 14 years old. I am, Mister, still true to my salt as assistant patrol leader of the Cherokees, Troop 152, Sequoia Council, Boy Scouts of America.

Some may snicker. The more fools they.

We were not put upon this earth to turn our faces from starving peasants or our brothers and sisters whose taxes support such hollow men and their shenanigans.

Hollow men, such as watch money earmarked for medical research to benefit the commonweal, but dumped instead into the hog trough of this "behavioral genetics" bill of goods about identical/fraternal twins and their vershtunken GCSE score.
Keep it civil... mod
« Last Edit: 18/09/2015 11:42:26 by evan_au »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #136 on: 18/09/2015 13:16:31 »
Quote from: Franklin_Uhuru
why are you and the rest of the naked scientists here beavering away to present it twice - (2 years old research as it ever was) as the hot news of the day?
Today I finally heard the recent Naked Genetics podcast "Hundreds and Thousands", which was talking about techniques assisting the search for genetic diseases in humans. The often subtle effects of genetic differences require very large sample sizes to extract a statistically significant result from the noise of many confounding factors and genes that have small individual effect (or, as pointed out in the "knockout" interview, sometimes no visible impact at all!).

A variety of techniques were mentioned, including cohort studies with various degrees of ethnic diversity, integrated medical & educational records, and twin studies.

While the segment on twin studies did mention the GCSE result in passing, it was mostly in the context of obtaining a large enough sample size which is unavailable in more fragmented countries. The majority of the interview was talking about other aspects of studying twins and their genetics.

So there were two interviews with the same guest within 2 months, but IMHO, it really wasn't the same paper presented twice.
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #137 on: 18/09/2015 16:50:29 »
You may look for yourself to see what "TheDoc" himself  wrote to introduce the  the naked scientist's entirely "incidental" second apotheosis of Dr. Plomin's research here in two months...

Quote
Professor Robert Plomin from Kings College London explains why twins are
so interesting to geneticists, and what they can tell us.

Keep off the national slurs - mod

PS: Are those genetic data being kept entirely out of the government's data banks? You wouldn't kid me now, would you?

NB: It is a well considered policy to stick to Lapsang Souchong tea for 8 hours before you write here.
« Last Edit: 18/09/2015 23:32:00 by evan_au »
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #138 on: 18/09/2015 19:06:03 »
This is a family forum - as the rules attest. Even though you are one of the moderator's little pals, kindly avoid using your garbage mouth like that again, Mister. You may have noticed that I am able to use quite colorful - but clean -- imagery without your gutter vocabulary. So take a hint, Buster.

Nevertheless, your bad manners have failed  (again) to distract me from my point....

This ... paper has produced no benefit to mankind except to sell newspapers of a dodgy type. Don't give me that tap dance about Binet. What is the use of this schlock to 21st century Britain -- or the world? Meanwhile. this dog has eaten up scarce medical research dollars and those valid areas of research that have a chance of benefiting people -- have (Wait for it!) ---gone wanting for funds.

You seem to have allowed a word that's been used on this forum before to distract you from actually addressing the point. The paper did, and does, make a contribution.
It provides the evidence to undermine the eugenics nuts and so on- yet you would ban it because you don't like the way some people would misinterpret it.

this is a science forum and, while I apologise for any offence caused by my language, I wonder which you think is more offensive?
The truth, but including a naughty word, or a politely worded lie like this one "I have understood this research from its initial presentation here  -- including its assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup."

No such assumption was made.
you know that.
You refuse to accept that you were simply wrong.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #139 on: 18/09/2015 20:16:35 »
I used a "rude" word- actually a corruption of  the Norwegian word for dirt- to describe some people who I'm sure we agree are pretty despicable. The only people I directly insulted are dead (and probably deserved the description). And, it wasn't with "impunity" as you put it; I got it deleted and my knuckles wrapped.
Bill was banned for repeated overt racism against white people, for insulting people here on the site and, above all for breaking the rules.
Do you really not understand the difference.
Among other things the problem with an ad hom attack isn't so much that it's rude- the big problem is that it is a logical fallacy. It is implicitly dishonest. That's what you got canned for.

Also, as usual, you have missed the point.
You made the assertion that the paper says (or implies) that there is an"assumption that women's different GCSE scores are caused by their genetic makeup.".
Others have pointed out that they do not make (or imply) that assumption
So, it falls to you to prove your allegation.

That's the way it works; if you say something, you are expected to be able to back it up.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #140 on: 18/09/2015 23:22:08 »
Franklin's still unable to muster an argument, I see.
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #141 on: 18/09/2015 23:39:05 »
Keep off the national & professional slurs - mod


Mr. Moderator how is it a professional slur to point out your friend's personal interest in disparaging the sexist nature of Plomin's paper, Hmmm?


Now can we get back to how the funds for Plomin's research were diverted by the government ...away from things like Parkinson's disease?

Gosh, I hope that none of these contributors come down with Parkinson's like so many other Brits!

Mr. Moderator! Why did you change my text from "gentlemen" to "contributors"? And if you have such delicate sensitivity, why do you fail to show me the courtesy of signing your own name to your interference?

Oh ! The Humanity!
« Last Edit: 19/09/2015 01:06:21 by Franklin_Uhuru »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #142 on: 18/09/2015 23:57:34 »
Quote from: Pecos_Bill
I am reading, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer.
Reading about Josef Mengele's experiments on twins is sickening. His disdain for certain national groups allowed him to ignore the medical motto of "Do No Harm". Today's "Informed Consent" and Ethics Committees evidently did not cross his mind.

But that is no reason to rubbish twin studies. Subject to modern controls, they are a valuable and productive area of research, assisting hypothesis creation and confirmation, well before any underlying causes are discovered. They significantly reduce the confounding factors in other types of study.

Even better, prospective longitudinal studies of twins (such as Prof Plomin discussed) assist untangling cause and effect. Studies that take place at a single point in time can only show correlation, which does not demonstrate cause & effect.

So the real problem here is not the twin studies, but in mental attitude; viewing people with certain capabilities, or coming from certain national or ethnic origins with disdain. When polemic labels people like this, the perpetrators feel free to ignore any logic or humanity in what other parties say or do, and see no need to respond to it in a humane or logically sound way, based on objective evidence. I feel this is the fundamental error of the ad-hominem argument on a website.
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #143 on: 19/09/2015 00:08:38 »
The real problem is that research funds are diverted to ridiculous beetle tracking studies of no tangible benefit-- like Plomin's research-- by faceless government pooh-bahs while the tax payers who foot the bill groan under afflictions like MS or Parkinson's whose research is starved for funds  like the red haired step-child of British medicine.

There and it doesn't take 500 words of bloviating verbiage to say it.

Anything that is true can be explained in 5 sentences or so. Only deceptions need several paragraphs.
It is true that you can insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you in 5 sentences or less (the ad hominem argument).
To present a clear, logical argument in 5 sentences or less is much more difficult.


And I am yet to hear how this mountain of genetic data will be kept out of secret government data bases in Britain or America.
« Last Edit: 19/09/2015 23:33:35 by evan_au »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #144 on: 19/09/2015 00:12:50 »
So the real problem here is not the twin studies, but in mental attitude; viewing people with certain capabilities, or coming from certain national or ethnic origins with disdain. When polemic labels people like this, the perpetrators feel free to ignore any logic or humanity in what other parties say or do, and see no need to respond to it in a humane or logically sound way, based on objective evidence. I feel this is the fundamental error of the ad-hominem argument on a website.
Yeah, but when someone feels so strongly that the issues are so important that something must be done, nothing quite matches a rant on an internet forum for the feeling that one has made a contribution...  ::)
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #145 on: 19/09/2015 00:18:02 »
Quote
And I am yet to hear how this mountain of genetic data will be kept out of secret government data bases in Britain or America.

Will you guarantee this data will not be misused, Bub, or the cat's mother?

In fact, how would you know if Dr. Plomin was fronting for the United States National Spook Agency?

It's an easy answer. Unless another Snowden popped up, you wouldn't.

Would you Mr. "Hero Menber" ?


*********************

Reader,

I don't come here to speak to any of the gentlemen and scholars who preen themselves so comically in this forum.

I come to speak to you

You whose tax money is squandered on this feckless "research. You who are excluded from the high table by these people's poorly concealed discrimination. Yes, and you who are menaced by the useless promises made by these people that genetic data isn't being eagerly hoovered up by your government.

Don't let these people lead you up the garden path.
« Last Edit: 19/09/2015 02:19:35 by Franklin_Uhuru »
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #146 on: 19/09/2015 04:08:58 »
FLASH!      FLASH!     FLASH!

In breaking news this evening. I have read the following in The Guardian...

Ethnic minority students less likely to win university places[1.]

The story notes...

Quote
In the case of medical sciences, the figures suggest more than 360 ethnic minority students were turned down for places that the Ucas forecast suggests they should have gained at leading Russell Group universities, over the five years of data.


The Naked Scientist's official  ideological line is that Plomin's paper is innocent of any discriminatory intent.

Viewed in that context the fervid efforts of these white men in this Physiology & Medicine forum to assert the innocent nature of Plomin's research in the face of denying admission  to 360 non-white students in favor of white students is pungently reminiscent of the Milpitas tidal flats --to say the least.

Such silent complicity in depriving 360 deserving students of color from a medical career  is a shame and a stench on my own white skin and every other decent white man in the world..



[1.] http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/sep/18/ethnic-minority-students-less-likely-to-win-university-places
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #147 on: 19/09/2015 10:16:19 »

Anything that is true can be explained in 5 sentences or so. Only deceptions need several paragraphs.

OK, In five sentences (or less, if you like) please explain why the difference between the exam scores of identical twins is less than the difference between exam scores of fraternal twins.
 

Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #148 on: 19/09/2015 10:18:10 »


Mr. Moderator how is it a professional slur to point out your friend's personal interest in disparaging the sexist nature of Plomin's paper, Hmmm?

Because the "personal interest" only exists in your imagination and the paper isn't sexist.


You do realise you are heading for a ban again, don't you?
 

Offline Franklin_Uhuru

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
« Reply #149 on: 19/09/2015 10:52:04 »
I am well aware of the risks incurred by anyone who points out ... discrimination against non-white people and their white allies like me.

360 colored people denied an equal education over 5 years works out to 72 per year.  72 colored people denied per year in medicine alone...
Stay away from character assassination and conspiracy theories - Mod

Uhuru!  Ban me and be damned. You will never ban the peoples' thirst for justice.

#stillyes



« Last Edit: 20/09/2015 00:07:44 by evan_au »
 

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Re: Do your genes affect your GCSE grades?
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