# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?  (Read 10825 times)

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #25 on: 24/08/2015 22:09:46 »
Quote from: Thebox
Do you actually understand what random is?
Why do you keep asking this when its apparent to us that its only you who don't appear to have a firm grasp of it? Alan is a well educated man and knows darn well what random means as do everyone else. You've had a lot of time to learn math and you've never chosen to pick up a good book on math and start learning it from scratch. It's a terrible decision to attempt learning math by first learning about probability and statistics. Your use of the symbols here is so distorted that its next to impossible to follow.

Your choice of not choosing to read those texts on math and physics that I suggested that you read is what made me choose not to converse with you anymore. I speak now only to remind you that you're not going to learn physics correctly the way that you're going.

Pete it is the present symbols science  uses, it should not be that difficult to follow when I have provided the source links to the apparent meaningless symbols.   It reads like a book to me.

I am correct, I may present my maths slightly different to you would but it is easy to read when I h ave given you the very maths dictionary they come from.   It is not me being arrogant, it is me fast tracking.

added- i will translate the maths

P=chance

x=52

y=^x

A=specific variant

σ²=variance of population values i.e A²

/=in

P(A)/X=1/52

P(A)/Y=σ2²

event B=σ2²

event A=Y

P(B | A)=1

Yes or no? very simple maths with instruction.

« Last Edit: 24/08/2015 22:23:09 by Thebox »

#### alancalverd

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4725
• Thanked: 155 times
• life is too short to drink instant coffee
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #26 on: 24/08/2015 23:00:12 »
what does "A is ^x" mean ?

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #27 on: 25/08/2015 06:39:20 »
what does "A is ^x" mean ?

Where does it say that?

But in answer any specific variant to the power of x,

x
x^1
x^2
x^3

every one of them could be a number 1 in the y column created by the x shuffle.

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #28 on: 25/08/2015 06:42:46 »
scenario - Imagine a 3 lane motorway, you are in the most left lane, above each lane every 5m is a number 1,2, or 3 in no specific order.

123
231
213
231
P

P=you

drive down the motorway in the same lane. Got it now, imagine this scenario,

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2762
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #29 on: 25/08/2015 11:20:55 »
Quote from: Thebox
Pete it is the present symbols science  uses, it should not be that difficult to follow when I have provided the source links to the apparent meaningless symbols.   It reads like a book to me.
Please read what I post more carefully. I said that Your use of the symbols here is so distorted that its next to impossible to follow. That means that its not the symbols that's the problem but your use of them that's the problem. By the way, your constant statement that you're "correct" is also the problem because it shows that you're not willing to consider the notion that you might have made a mistake somewhere and when people can't conceive of making a mistake they rarely listen to the people who are telling them what the mistake is, i.e. they're not paying close enough attention and not keeping an open mind. It's been pointed out to you many times that your posts are confusing. The best example I can give to illustrate my point is the first post in this thread. All you did was to write down symbols without defining how they're being used and what they mean. We know what the symbols mean but its the context that's missing. You don't even use the symbols correctly. E.g. you wrote in part

(dx)=52
P(n)/(dx)=(1/52)/t

And you didn't state what "(dx)" means. All you did was to assign it a value. Then you have the expression P(n) without defining what "n" is. We know from what the meaning of the symbol is but you're not using it in that context. All you have below is "~(n)" but you didn't specify it's value.

The proper use of the symbol P(A) is that A is an event and therefore P(A) is the probability of that event. An example of an event is "The dealer deals an Ace out of a full deck of cards which are randomly shuffled." Then P(A) = 1/52.

I could go on and on about your poor use and grasp of it but from what I've seen in this thread you won't understand it because you think you're right and therefore aren't willing to consider being wrong and learning what your mistake is.

#### Colin2B

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1921
• Thanked: 125 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #30 on: 25/08/2015 15:14:17 »
scenario - Imagine a 3 lane motorway, you are in the most left lane, above each lane every 5m is a number 1,2, or 3 in no specific order.

123
231
213
231
P

P=you

drive down the motorway in the same lane. Got it now, imagine this scenario,
I'm loathed to get back into this as it has been thoroughly covered in the other thread
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=57749.0

However, I will pick an example to show that your use of maths is confusing.
x ⊥ y means x has no factor greater than 1 in common with y.
This means that y cannot be x^1, x^2, x^3, etc
However, you then say

x=52

y=^x

Quote from: alancalverd on 24/08/2015 23:00:12
what does "A is ^x" mean ?

Where does it say that?

But in answer any specific variant to the power of x,

x
x^1
x^2
x^3
So according to this y=x^1, x^2, x^3, etc

So which is it to be, and how did you decide that y is limited to these values anyway?

This is why I describe your maths as gibberish, you can't just string together symbols you don't understand the meaning of.

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #31 on: 25/08/2015 18:49:40 »

Please read what I post more carefully. I said that Your use of the symbols here is so distorted that its next to impossible to follow. That means that its not the symbols that's the problem but your use of them that's the problem. By the way, your constant statement that you're "correct" is also the problem because it shows that you're not willing to consider the notion that you might have made a mistake somewhere and when people can't conceive of making a mistake they rarely listen to the people who are telling them what the mistake is, i.e. they're not paying close enough attention and not keeping an open mind. It's been pointed out to you many times that your posts are confusing. The best example I can give to illustrate my point is the first post in this thread. All you did was to write down symbols without defining how they're being used and what they mean. We know what the symbols mean but its the context that's missing. You don't even use the symbols correctly. E.g. you wrote in part

(dx)=52
P(n)/(dx)=(1/52)/t

And you didn't state what "(dx)" means. All you did was to assign it a value. Then you have the expression P(n) without defining what "n" is. We know from what the meaning of the symbol is but you're not using it in that context. All you have below is "~(n)" but you didn't specify it's value.

The proper use of the symbol P(A) is that A is an event and therefore P(A) is the probability of that event. An example of an event is "The dealer deals an Ace out of a full deck of cards which are randomly shuffled." Then P(A) = 1/52.

I could go on and on about your poor use and grasp of it but from what I've seen in this thread you won't understand it because you think you're right and therefore aren't willing to consider being wrong and learning what your mistake is.

Ok Pete, I understand why my maths may be confusing you.   You are correct in thinking that I do not know enough maths to tackle this, however in considering I may be wrong, is something I do each and every day, for about 6 years now I have had this idea that I can not prove wrong to myself, and the worse of it I got learnt basic probability by forums and it just confirmed my fears.

(dx) is distance vector x Pete, I thought people would know this, I think you are clever people, so thought you would just get it.

added- Pete I am trying to explain that a multitude of decks creates a y axis that is not equal to any of the x axis's, the y axis has multiples of a specific variant instead of the single of x,

top card
ace diamonds
queen clubs
ace diamonds

y axis choice.

this symbol for y =σ² variance of population values compared to x.

Help me please ,

« Last Edit: 25/08/2015 19:01:43 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #32 on: 25/08/2015 18:51:52 »

So according to this y=x^1, x^2, x^3, etc

So which is it to be, and how did you decide that y is limited to these values anyway?

This is why I describe your maths as gibberish, you can't just string together symbols you don't understand the meaning of.

y is infinite Colin not limited, the above was just an example.  It is actually x^∞=y

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #33 on: 25/08/2015 19:13:17 »
scenario - Imagine a 3 lane motorway, you are in the most left lane, above each lane every 5m is a number 1,2, or 3 in no specific order.

123
231
213
231
P

P=you

drive down the motorway in the same lane. Got it now, imagine this scenario,

If you can picture this, you understand it,

#### alancalverd

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4725
• Thanked: 155 times
• life is too short to drink instant coffee
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #34 on: 25/08/2015 22:45:37 »
OK, let's take it a bit at a time

P=chance

x=52

y=^x

What does y = ^x mean?

Quote
A=specific variant

σ²=variance of population values i.e A²

/=in

Please explain the meaning of your symbols.

Is A a number? If so, what does it denote? If not, what does A2 mean?

Population of what?

Variance is a description of the distribution of a population along an axis - what axis?

What does "/=in" mean to you?
« Last Edit: 25/08/2015 22:58:14 by alancalverd »

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #35 on: 26/08/2015 06:18:41 »
OK, let's take it a bit at a time

P=chance

x=52

y=^x

What does y = ^x mean?

Quote
A=specific variant

σ²=variance of population values i.e A²

/=in

Please explain the meaning of your symbols.

Is A a number? If so, what does it denote? If not, what does A2 mean?

Population of what?

Variance is a description of the distribution of a population along an axis - what axis?

What does "/=in" mean to you?

y=^x means

^x
^x
^x

Y axis.

(A) was representing a specific variant in this instance and squared
/ in, means like a box and all that it contains.

Population is each individual and all values in the box,

To switch it to your terms after Pete had shown my error in presentation

P(A)=1/52 using a X axis

P(A)=σ²  using a Y axis

x=12
x=12
....yy

« Last Edit: 26/08/2015 06:20:36 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1921
• Thanked: 125 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #36 on: 26/08/2015 09:10:08 »
P(A)=σ²  using a Y axis
This is why I have given up on your theory.
A probability cannot equal a measure of variance or deviation.

y is infinite Colin not limited, the above was just an example.  It is actually x^∞=y
this x^∞=y is also gibberish.

Edit: There is no our maths and your maths, only correct maths and incorrect maths. What we are dealing with here is very basic and covered in secondary schools. In a few year's time your son will be telling you how wrong you are.
« Last Edit: 26/08/2015 10:36:08 by Colin2B »

#### alancalverd

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4725
• Thanked: 155 times
• life is too short to drink instant coffee
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #37 on: 26/08/2015 18:11:28 »
what does ^x mean? You have used ^ to indicate "to the power of", which is fairly conventional, but

^x
^x
^x
presumably means something else to you, as do words like "variant", "event", and indeed almost everything you have written.

Mathematics is a universal, formal language. If you were writing in French or German, I'm sure you would use words according to their meaning in France and Germany, so why not use mathematical definitions and symbols the same way as everyone else on the planet?

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #38 on: 26/08/2015 18:33:28 »
what does ^x mean? You have used ^ to indicate "to the power of", which is fairly conventional, but

^x
^x
^x
presumably means something else to you, as do words like "variant", "event", and indeed almost everything you have written.

Mathematics is a universal, formal language. If you were writing in French or German, I'm sure you would use words according to their meaning in France and Germany, so why not use mathematical definitions and symbols the same way as everyone else on the planet?

if i rolled a dice twice , the second roll would be ^2 which is 36-1 of a repeat variant from the first roll.

So if we shuffle a deck of cards, played a round then the cards were gathered and reshuffled, the chance of you receiving the same variant as the first shuffle is ^2.

So if we have 2 decks of cards, and used each one, ^2

so x^

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

added-think of it like this,

10²=100

x^10=10²

0123456789
0123456789
0123456789
0123456789
0123456789
0123456789
0123456789
0123456789
0123456789
0123456789

The only possible way x=y was if all values were zero

0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
« Last Edit: 26/08/2015 19:32:26 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #39 on: 26/08/2015 19:01:28 »

A probability cannot equal a measure of variance or deviation.

Yes Colin exactly , so what is the P of an event from the Y axis Colin?

There is no probabilities which is my whole point, if you add choice and have a multitude of sets creating a Y axis with an alignment of variant to the player there is no P and that is not 1/52 of x  and the symbol represents variance of the values of x in the alignment of y.

P(A)/X=(1/52)/t1

P(A)/Y=(σX+σ²)/t2

The only possible answer to Y = a deviation to x ?

0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
0000000000
↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓

Both axis's

t1←0000000000/000000000
t1←0000000000/000000000t2
t1←0000000000/000000000t2
t1←0000000000/000000000
t1←0000000000/000000000
t1←0000000000/000000000t2
t1←0000000000/000000000
t1←0000000000/000000000
t1←0000000000/000000000
t1←0000000000/000000000t2
t1←0000000000/000000000
t1...↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓

P(σX)=1

P(σ²Y≠X)=1

P(B | A)=1

« Last Edit: 26/08/2015 20:22:39 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1921
• Thanked: 125 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #40 on: 26/08/2015 22:28:13 »
Yes Colin exactly , so what is the P of an event from the Y axis Colin?
I don't intend to repeat answers that we have already given that you choose not to read
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=57749.0

#### alancalverd

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4725
• Thanked: 155 times
• life is too short to drink instant coffee
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #41 on: 27/08/2015 01:19:29 »
I repeat my questions of reply #37. Please define your terms and symbols.

#### PmbPhy

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 2762
• Thanked: 38 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #42 on: 27/08/2015 01:43:52 »
I repeat my questions of reply #37. Please define your terms and symbols.
I'm telling you folks. He's just never going to get it.

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #43 on: 27/08/2015 06:17:52 »
I repeat my questions of reply #37. Please define your terms and symbols.
I'm telling you folks. He's just never going to get it.

I would argue that it is you Pete who is never going to get it, I understand very well, just because my maths may be a bit wayward that does not mean my idea is wayward. I am sure if you got it Pete you would easily do the maths to the idea.

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #44 on: 27/08/2015 06:19:44 »
Yes Colin exactly , so what is the P of an event from the Y axis Colin?
I don't intend to repeat answers that we have already given that you choose not to read
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=57749.0

Colin Y has no probability , by adding time 2 it makes a deviation to x. You have not answered it I am afraid.

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #45 on: 27/08/2015 06:28:44 »
I repeat my questions of reply #37. Please define your terms and symbols.

^x is shuffles or sets, the other symbols mean the same thing as the links provided says they mean. Have you ever played ''duck shoot'' at a fair ground?

where the duck travels left to right on a x axis and you shoot a y axis intercepting the duck.

←0123456789

consider this sequence, you first have 0, if you then had 6 you would be bringing 6 forward in time,

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #46 on: 27/08/2015 18:05:29 »
To understand is to consider that using a single set, only 1 specific variant occupies the ''top spot'' at a specific time.  Where if you use multiple sets, many variants occupy the ''top spot'' at the same specific time.

1/52 is not a choice, it is an event over a period of time, where as choice is not 1/52 over time, it is lucky interception over time.

I made you a short video , i will make a more detailed one at the week end with motion,

« Last Edit: 27/08/2015 19:09:26 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #47 on: 28/08/2015 23:55:41 »
This must be correct now?

If I take a coin and tossed it , you  know the chance of H or T is 1/2, you know this is also the chance for any other coin.

If I tossed 10 individual coins one after each other and recorded the results of each coins toss, then asked you to pick any of the tosses 1 to 10, you know your chance remains 1/2.

This is wrong and a trick your brain is playing on you,

Because the event has already happened, you have ten unknown variants aligned to your choice,

o
o
o
o
o
o
o
o
o
o

P(H)=0_1/10

P(T)=0_1/10

1/2 becomes obsolete and by adding choice, makes a multivariate, and we take a random leap rather than a random walk, bringing values forward in time.

#### alancalverd

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 4725
• Thanked: 155 times
• life is too short to drink instant coffee
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #48 on: 29/08/2015 12:01:24 »
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Toss one coin. What is P(H)?

Put 100 coins in a box, shake the box, and pick one coin with your eyes closed. What is P(H)?

Toss 100 coins, one at a time, put them in a box, then pick one coin with your eyes closed. What is P(H)?

If they are not all the same, explain what physical process is responsible for the change. You are looking for a process whereby the toss of one coin affects the outcome of the toss of another.

Your underlying misconception is the idea that multiplying one random number (say the position of AS in a shuffle) by  another (which shuffle to pick) results in a nonrandom,or at least more predictable, number.

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 3164
• Thanked: 46 times
##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #49 on: 29/08/2015 17:46:53 »

Your underlying misconception is the idea that multiplying one random number (say the position of AS in a shuffle) by  another (which shuffle to pick) results in a nonrandom,or at least more predictable, number.

You still have no idea what my actual idea is sorry Alan,

You are not considering before and after and recorded results,

before a coin toss the result is 1/2 ,

if you recorded the results of the coin toss and kept the results hidden, then asked someone to pick a result, the chance is not 1/2 any more.

the chance is ? out of ?

o
o
o
o
o
o
o

How many heads or tails are in the above number of throws?

You cant answer it can you?

You can answer left to right which is 1/2. Where as Y could all be Heads or tails or a combination.

Y is a multiple of variants of x, by choice you add standard deviation which is defined by the shuffle of x, the result is set but unknown.

I thank you Alan for maintaining the conversation, I will show you the difference

a coin

HT
HT
HT
HT

pick a coin, you have a chance of 1/2 of any coin because the result is not written

result

?
?
?
?

we have no idea of the result or if it is H or T

« Last Edit: 29/08/2015 17:51:26 by Thebox »

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: This maths is correct, how can it be wrong?
« Reply #49 on: 29/08/2015 17:46:53 »