The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Poll

Is the universe finite or eternal in nature >

Yes its eternal
6 (50%)
No its finite
6 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Author Topic: Is the universe finite or eternal in nature  (Read 6017 times)

Offline Hadrian

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2175
  • Scallywag
    • View Profile
Is the universe finite or eternal in nature
« on: 30/11/2006 22:07:14 »
Get off the fence. After all who going to be around to prove you wrong    [^]


 

Offline Hadrian

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2175
  • Scallywag
    • View Profile
Re: Is the universe finite or eternal in nature
« Reply #1 on: 30/11/2006 22:49:39 »
as you asked I'm here to serve  :)
 

Offline Soul Surfer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3345
  • keep banging the rocks together
    • View Profile
    • ian kimber's web workspace
Re: Is the universe finite or eternal in nature
« Reply #2 on: 01/12/2006 15:24:10 »
Our universe is finite and probably has a beginning and an end but the whole multiverse including all the bits that we can never see or be aware of is of indefinite and possibly infinite scale.
 

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 20602
  • Thanked: 8 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is the universe finite or eternal in nature
« Reply #3 on: 01/12/2006 20:17:26 »
Ian...when you say it's finite...do you mean all the stuff in it ?..or the very fabric of the Universe as well ?

This is fascinating !
 

Offline Soul Surfer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3345
  • keep banging the rocks together
    • View Profile
    • ian kimber's web workspace
Re: Is the universe finite or eternal in nature
« Reply #4 on: 04/12/2006 19:21:23 »
We have very good information that there exist seperate "universes" in the form of black holes spawning off from our universe.  Black holes are also the longest lived things that exist in our universe most of them are still growing because they are currently colder than the cosmic microwave background.  There is also quite good evidence that the physical properties of our universe are such as to maximise the number of black holes formed.  (see Lee Smolin "life and the universe")  This is what one would expect from a multiverse in which the phsical laws had evolved to maximise the lives of individual universes.

I feel that it is quite likely that our universe is effectively a black hole inside another univese  and so on.

This implies that whatever processes create the appearence of space within our universe  (including inflation)  the processes are finite and there is a finite amount of space and material within our universe.  Even though material and light may never be able to get back to where it started by making a round trip of the finite space it is still finite.

The fractally structured multiverse may be infinite but I prefer the term indefinate because if you use the mathematical term infinite  there are all sorts of silly and pointelss deductions that can be created  like gangs of chimpanzees  writing the works of shakespeare.
 

Offline neilep

  • Withdrawnmist
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • Posts: 20602
  • Thanked: 8 times
    • View Profile
Re: Is the universe finite or eternal in nature
« Reply #5 on: 04/12/2006 20:17:38 »
WHOA !!!...I am going to have to dig out my Roger penrose and hawking books and give them another read !

IAN..Thank You.

So, when a star explodes and is of the magnitude that it creates a black hole....would that be akin to  what we call the big bang ?..but is in fact happening..' on the other side ' ?

I thought Black holes were finite..in that...when they have no more stuff to 'absorb '/suck in etc..... that they eventually evaporate !...albeit over a fatalistically long period of time...
 

Offline thebrain13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 442
    • View Profile
Re: Is the universe finite or eternal in nature
« Reply #6 on: 04/12/2006 21:19:41 »
Hold on a second. There is zero evidence supporting the fact that the universe is infinite. There is zero evidence supporting that the universe is finite.

Your answers should start with a probably, I think, most sceintists believe, consesus etc. To answer this question with a yes, no, or deffinantly is not right.
 

Offline Soul Surfer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3345
  • keep banging the rocks together
    • View Profile
    • ian kimber's web workspace
Re: Is the universe finite or eternal in nature
« Reply #7 on: 04/12/2006 23:49:11 »
You need to think a bit about what a black hole looks like from the inside.  I have been trying to find out if anyone has done any serious modelling of the parts of the collapse that we can understand without getting involved with quantum gravity.

Here are some simple facts

All black holes must contain some angular momentum there is no such beast as the non rotating swartzchild black hole containig a "point" singularity it is just too unlikely to be worth worrying about (for the moment)  all black holes are kerr blackholes containig a ring (or torodal mass concentration.

Just saying that inside black holes is not interesting because it all contracts down to nothing is a total copout  a bit like saying our current universe is uninteresting because it all expands out to nothing and vanishes in the heat death of thermodynamics (total tripe) we all know that's the way it's going  its what happens  ON THE WAY THERE  that is interesting.

I have already presented on these pages some ideas that a cooling rotating multidimensional surface could look in some directions like a flat cartesian infinite universe while having small dimensions witin its structure.

The end product is that the inside of a black hole is a bit like a tardis it looks much larger and has a lot more in it than the outside suggests
 

Offline Heliotrope

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
    • http://www.davethedrummer.com
Re: Is the universe finite or eternal in nature
« Reply #8 on: 07/12/2006 22:37:48 »
Define "universe".
 

Offline Soul Surfer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3345
  • keep banging the rocks together
    • View Profile
    • ian kimber's web workspace
Re: Is the universe finite or eternal in nature
« Reply #9 on: 08/12/2006 00:30:36 »
I agree this could need some clarification because terminology is evolving here.

The term Multiverse is now generally accepted as the name of the sum total of everything that exists whether we can be aware of it or not the multiverse could include many universes like (or unlike) our own or the quantum mechanical parallels of the alternative events to those that happen in our universe or both.

Our universe is the sum total of what we can be aware of either directly or by inference.  It appears to have a start and can be predicted to have an end and may be somewhat larger than we can ever be aware of but it also has holes in it (black ones)  External state of the holes have a life but extremely simple structure.  The actual internal state of these holes is unknown and unknowable but may be modelable.
 

Offline Hadrian

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2175
  • Scallywag
    • View Profile
Re: Is the universe finite or eternal in nature
« Reply #10 on: 09/12/2006 19:42:39 »
thank you everyone i am enjoying your posts on this pole a lot
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Is the universe finite or eternal in nature
« Reply #10 on: 09/12/2006 19:42:39 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums