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Author Topic: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?  (Read 2696 times)

Offline Thebox

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #25 on: 20/09/2015 15:28:47 »
Then surely the negative particles whilst in the Sun are really  positive particles as they are ''charged'' the same as everything else?

They are "negatively charged," and cannot be positively charged. That's part of what defines an electron.

Then we would need to talk about atoms,

If A is attracted to A to  form B

And B absorbs C

And B emits D=C

Is E relevant?



« Last Edit: 20/09/2015 15:32:24 by Thebox »
 

Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #26 on: 20/09/2015 16:45:41 »
Impossible, the electrons and muons would stick to the protons and positrons before they left the sun, negatives being attracted to a positive, there is something not quite right with your quote. How can any of the above separately exist, surely they all would combine together?
Good grief. I had suspected you found the words "isotropic" and "anisotropic" when you looked up hydrostatic equilibrium after I mentioned it a few days ago. Now I am convinced. I hate it when people debate me by looking up everything on Wikipedia on the fly as they go, and it's usually pretty obvious when they do.

FYI, an electron has kinetic energy. That keeps it from combining with a proton despite opposite charges. In order for that to occur, the pressure/density has to be high, like early in the Universe before protons and electrons could exist separately, in a neutron star where they get smashed together by gravity, or in a particle accelerator where they get smashed together by humans performing experiments.

Think about it this way. An electron is a fundamental particle, a "bit" of energy. In order to fall into the nucleus, it would have to lose some of that energy, which by definition would no longer make it an electron. An electron's mass/energy is not divisible, or it would not be a fundamental particle.

This is all off topic. If the science primer is over, can we get back to discussing how fusion pressure from the Sun's core provides an isotropic pressure that cancels out most of the Sun's equatorial bulge according to my hypothesis?
« Last Edit: 20/09/2015 16:50:41 by Craig W. Thomson »
 

Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #27 on: 20/09/2015 16:58:15 »
Plasma is not really a liquid or neither is the sun, so hydro is not really a word involved in any of the suns processes.  Do you imagine the sun to be like molten  Lava?
flu·id

noun
1.
a substance that has no fixed shape and yields easily to external pressure; a gas or (especially) a liquid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)#Fluid_model

By the way, words like "hydrostatic" are as old as the words "particle" and "orbit." An electron is a wave, not a particle, and it exists in an electron cloud, not an actual orbit like a planet. Similarly, we continue to use the term "hydrostatic" to refer to other substances besides water.
« Last Edit: 20/09/2015 17:02:00 by Craig W. Thomson »
 

Online chiralSPO

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #28 on: 20/09/2015 17:05:07 »
Don't try convincing TheBox of anything, it is pointless as he believes his own logic trumps all logic.

Impossible, the electrons and muons would stick to the protons and positrons before they left the sun, negatives being attracted to a positive, there is something not quite right with your quote. How can any of the above separately exist, surely they all would combine together?
Good grief. I had suspected you found the words "isotropic" and "anisotropic" when you looked up hydrostatic equilibrium after I mentioned it a few days ago. Now I am convinced. I hate it when people debate me by looking up everything on Wikipedia on the fly as they go, and it's usually pretty obvious when they do.

FYI, an electron has kinetic energy. That keeps it from combining with a proton despite opposite charges. In order for that to occur, the pressure/density has to be high, like early in the Universe before protons and electrons could exist separately, in a neutron star where they get smashed together by gravity, or in a particle accelerator where they get smashed together by humans performing experiments.

Think about it this way. An electron is a fundamental particle, a "bit" of energy. In order to fall into the nucleus, it would have to lose some of that energy, which by definition would no longer make it an electron. An electron's mass/energy is not divisible, or it would not be a fundamental particle.

This is all off topic. If the science primer is over, can we get back to discussing how fusion pressure from the Sun's core provides an isotropic pressure that cancels out most of the Sun's equatorial bulge according to my hypothesis?
 

Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #29 on: 20/09/2015 18:06:52 »
Don't try convincing TheBox of anything, it is pointless as he believes his own logic trumps all logic.
I get your point, but I am not a scientist. I'm just some guy who's interested in this stuff. I actually learn a lot trying to decimate flawed logic by doing research. If people who are serious and know these things won't reply to my posts, I'll work with what I've got.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #30 on: 20/09/2015 20:44:19 »
The atmosphere of a planet behaves like a fluid and fluid dynamics can be used to model its behaviour. Can fusion pressure be considered in terms of fluid dynamics? May be a stupid question. I don't know.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #31 on: 21/09/2015 10:56:27 »

Good grief. I had suspected you found the words "isotropic" and "anisotropic" when you looked up hydrostatic equilibrium after I mentioned it a few days ago. Now I am convinced. I hate it when people debate me by looking up everything on Wikipedia on the fly as they go, and it's usually pretty obvious when they do.

FYI, an electron has kinetic energy. That keeps it from combining with a proton despite opposite charges. In order for that to occur, the pressure/density has to be high, like early in the Universe before protons and electrons could exist separately, in a neutron star where they get smashed together by gravity, or in a particle accelerator where they get smashed together by humans performing experiments.

Think about it this way. An electron is a fundamental particle, a "bit" of energy. In order to fall into the nucleus, it would have to lose some of that energy, which by definition would no longer make it an electron. An electron's mass/energy is not divisible, or it would not be a fundamental particle.

This is all off topic. If the science primer is over, can we get back to discussing how fusion pressure from the Sun's core provides an isotropic pressure that cancels out most of the Sun's equatorial bulge according to my hypothesis?

That is rather rude when I bothered to use my time to engage in conversation with you.   I do not need to look anything up on Wiki, I am not a scientist but have spent many years discoursing science information, I know my stuff. Isotropic is equal in all directions, i.e a sphere is equal in all directions from c.o.m.   

But never mind.
 

Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #32 on: 21/09/2015 19:03:44 »
That is rather rude when I bothered to use my time to engage in conversation with you.   I do not need to look anything up on Wiki, I am not a scientist but have spent many years discoursing science information, I know my stuff. Isotropic is equal in all directions, i.e a sphere is equal in all directions from c.o.m.   

But never mind.
Sorry, maybe that was rude, but like you, I have spent some years talking about this stuff. As such, I have plenty of experience with people who are no better educated than me that still try to refute everything I say.

Like you, I am not a scientist, either, but I know my stuff. I've taken some college math and physics, and read many dozens of science books over the years.

That's why I'm so sure isotropic fusion pressure is what presses the poles of the Sun outward, mostly countering equatorial bulging and giving the Sun a nearly spherical shape.

Gravity wants to make the Sun a perfect sphere. Fusion pressure makes the Sun's plasma "fill up" the gravitational container to it's greatest extent, providing a second force tending to make the Sun a perfect sphere. Two forces trying to achieve the same shape, so most of the bulging gets cancelled out.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #33 on: 21/09/2015 19:16:54 »
That is rather rude when I bothered to use my time to engage in conversation with you.   I do not need to look anything up on Wiki, I am not a scientist but have spent many years discoursing science information, I know my stuff. Isotropic is equal in all directions, i.e a sphere is equal in all directions from c.o.m.   

But never mind.
Sorry, maybe that was rude, but like you, I have spent some years talking about this stuff. As such, I have plenty of experience with people who are no better educated than me that still try to refute everything I say.

Like you, I am not a scientist, either, but I know my stuff. I've taken some college math and physics, and read many dozens of science books over the years.

That's why I'm so sure isotropic fusion pressure is what presses the poles of the Sun outward, mostly countering equatorial bulging and giving the Sun a nearly spherical shape.

Gravity wants to make the Sun a perfect sphere. Fusion pressure makes the Sun's plasma "fill up" the gravitational container to it's greatest extent, providing a second force tending to make the Sun a perfect sphere. Two forces trying to achieve the same shape, so most of the bulging gets cancelled out.

I do understand your idea and you think that an outward pressure made by the fusion process counteracts the centripetal ''pressure'' of motion. A comparison to myself being inside a basket ball pushing back a collapse of form from you applying external force with  myself applying an equal and opposing force.  I think the problem with your idea is that the fusion inside the sun can have the uncertainty principle applied, the fusion being of random points, so the force would not be isotropic?

Where as gases expand isotropically, a result of polarisation, + is repelled by +.

m=[-=+]

m=-/+=.5

E=∑m/2




« Last Edit: 21/09/2015 19:29:29 by Thebox »
 

Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #34 on: 22/09/2015 16:22:04 »

I think the problem with your idea is that the fusion inside the sun can have the uncertainty principle applied, the fusion being of random points, so the force would not be isotropic?
I don't think there is a problem with my idea. Gravity is "pulling" the Sun into a spherical shape, and fusion pressure is "pushing" the Sun into a spherical shape. Those two tendencies to make a perfect sphere are sufficient to cancel most equatorial bulging.

You can't get any more "simple and elegant" than that, and I have proposed no new theories, explaining the effect with existing scientific principles.

By the way, I enjoyed your conversation with waitedavid at physforum.com, LOL
« Last Edit: 22/09/2015 16:24:03 by Craig W. Thomson »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #35 on: 22/09/2015 16:31:30 »

I think the problem with your idea is that the fusion inside the sun can have the uncertainty principle applied, the fusion being of random points, so the force would not be isotropic?
I don't think there is a problem with my idea. Gravity is "pulling" the Sun into a spherical shape, and fusion pressure is "pushing" the Sun into a spherical shape. Those two tendencies to make a perfect sphere are sufficient to cancel most equatorial bulging.

You can't get any more "simple and elegant" than that, and I have proposed no new theories, explaining the effect with existing scientific principles.

By the way, I enjoyed your conversation with waitedavid at physforum.com, LOL

I only think the fault in your idea is because I do not think the fusion process is isotropic, if it is isotropic, then good idea. But I personally just like the simplicity of quanta being all of the same polarity , and the suns particles all repel each other to hold the suns shape.

« Last Edit: 22/09/2015 16:34:18 by Thebox »
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #36 on: 22/09/2015 17:43:44 »
CRaig you may be interested in this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_tokamak
 

Online chiralSPO

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #37 on: 22/09/2015 18:01:35 »
But I personally just like the simplicity of quanta being all of the same polarity , and the suns particles all repel each other to hold the suns shape.

And you are wrong. Let's try to stick to accepted science and reasonable extensions thereof (which may ultimately be wrong, but at least we will learn something by considering the problem)
 

Online chiralSPO

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #38 on: 22/09/2015 18:14:33 »
I don't think there is a problem with my idea. Gravity is "pulling" the Sun into a spherical shape, and fusion pressure is "pushing" the Sun into a spherical shape. Those two tendencies to make a perfect sphere are sufficient to cancel most equatorial bulging.

You can't get any more "simple and elegant" than that, and I have proposed no new theories, explaining the effect with existing scientific principles.


It seems to me that you are suggesting that because the rate of fusion is determined by the pressure (and temperature) of the plasma, any region of the sun that expands would see a reduction in fusion, causing it to cool and compress back to equilibrium, and any part of the sun would also resist compression by heating up and expanding due to increased fusion rate.

If this is a misinterpretation of your theory, please correct me so we are discussing the same thing. If it sounds right, please keep reading...

This equilibrium sounds reasonable to me, but I think it only ensures predictable density, and doesn't have a tremendous influence on the shape (symmetry) of the sun. Including gravity and the fusion equilibrium without any other forces around would certainly have a spherical optimum geometry. But I don't think that it will compensate other factors such as net rotation or magnetic field oscialtions to maintain the spherical shape. I am either misunderstanding something, or some other explanation is needed.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #39 on: 23/09/2015 10:26:49 »


And you are wrong. Let's try to stick to accepted science and reasonable extensions thereof (which may ultimately be wrong, but at least we will learn something by considering the problem)

How can anyone be wrong if there is no present answer to start off with?



 

Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #40 on: 23/09/2015 18:40:21 »
How can anyone be wrong if there is no present answer to start off with?
"I have all the answers , cant explain it great, but I do know what everything is all about and nobody seems to be interested sincerely because they cant understand ."

 ;)
 

Offline Craig W. Thomson

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #41 on: 23/09/2015 19:09:37 »
It seems to me that you are suggesting that because the rate of fusion is determined by the pressure (and temperature) of the plasma, any region of the sun that expands would see a reduction in fusion, causing it to cool and compress back to equilibrium, and any part of the sun would also resist compression by heating up and expanding due to increased fusion rate.

If this is a misinterpretation of your theory, please correct me so we are discussing the same thing. If it sounds right, please keep reading...

This equilibrium sounds reasonable to me, but I think it only ensures predictable density, and doesn't have a tremendous influence on the shape (symmetry) of the sun. Including gravity and the fusion equilibrium without any other forces around would certainly have a spherical optimum geometry. But I don't think that it will compensate other factors such as net rotation or magnetic field oscialtions to maintain the spherical shape. I am either misunderstanding something, or some other explanation is needed.
Actually, I hadn't considered the rate of fusion. I think the rate of fusion in the Sun should be pretty constant without major fluctuations because if there were such fluctuations, the Sun would likely change size as a response.
 
Basically, I am starting with the premise that plasma behaves like a gas. When you put gas in a container, it fills up that container, pressing on the walls. If you turn up the temperature, the molecules move faster in general, and so the pressure on the walls of the container increases.

That's what I think is happening in the case of fusion. Gravity makes a "container" for the Sun's plasma that tends to be spherical, while the Sun's rotation causes bulging at the equator. At the same time, fusion raises the temperature of the plasma in that container causing an isotropic pressure, just like the gas in a bottle. Photons created by fusion in the Sun don't go straight to the surface and fly off into space. They can take thousands of years to reach the surface, being absorbed and re-emitted continuously, adding their energy back into the pool of temperature and density over and over again as they bump into neighboring particles crammed together by gravity. In my view, that trapped photon energy is a mechanism that presses outward at the poles, cancelling some of the Sun's equatorial bulging.

Earlier in the thread, I used a basketball as an analogy. Of course, a basketball will pop if you increase the pressure too much, so the analogy is not perfect, but basically, if you sit on that basketball, you cause "flattening at the poles." If you pump up the basketball a bit more, isotropic pressure from within will cancel some of flattening caused by your weight, pressing the "poles" outward. In a nutshell, that's the process I'm trying to describe when I say fusion pressure cancels most of the Sun's equatorial bulging.

Again, I don't think the rate of fusion changes a lot. An increased rate of fusion would produce more isotropic pressure, which I believe would "inflate" the Sun to a larger size, while slowing down the rate of fusion would likely shrink it.
 

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Re: Why is the Sun such a perfect sphere?
« Reply #41 on: 23/09/2015 19:09:37 »

 

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