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Author Topic: Is the future predetermined?  (Read 1433 times)

Offline sam7

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Is the future predetermined?
« on: 18/09/2015 10:47:15 »
Could the future already exist?

The idea of quantum mechanics is that nature is inherently probabilistic. Particles have no hard properties, only likelihoods, until they are observed.

However, even though probability waves would still retain a use in statistical prediction, we find that all testable observations, such as those which make computers run and physics work, continue to function if we adopt predeterminism as the principle driving force for reality. In fact, it seems like many big mysteries of QM such as entanglement, dark energy and the double slit experiment make a lot more sense.

Why is there such a strong past-present-future time bias? It's entirely possible that human perception of time is the result of evolution and nothing more. Life must collect energy from states when it is readily available to survive, and the laws of thermodynamics state that things become more disorganized over time. Now, organic intelligent life must be able to predict the future, so evolution has given us this time bias of past-present-future. If this is true, time is free to travel both forwards and backwards and there is no reason for Quantum Mechanics to suggest that the future is decided by chance.

Thanks to Einstein's theory of relativity, we know that time passes at a different rate depending on the energy state of an observer. For example, an atomic clock on Earth synchronized with an atomic clock on a space rocket will desynchronize over time. The passage of time is not uniform throughout space. Our solar system is moving towards Lamba Herculis at a rate of 45000mph. Therefore, not all regions of space may travel through time with equal impetus. Distant galaxies accelerating away from us may be the difference between energy states of the two systems. What pulls time forwards? The answer is attraction. The future exerts an effect on the present and vice versa. Many such forces have been defined, but there may be more to discover i.e dark energy.

Quantum entanglement is defined as the 'spooky action at a distance' one or more particles can exhibit on each other. Changing the spin of one particle will affect the spin of the other, for example. The speeds of these interactions travel faster than light, seemingly breaking the laws of physics. However, according to predeterminism, these particles are not traveling, but being inferred, so the speed of light is not violated. This could be the basis behind FTL communication or FTL teleportation.

The spontaneous appearance of antiparticle pairs has long suggested the magical nature of quantum mechanics. However, this has been a red herring. There is nothing magical about a chemical reaction. The antiparticle existed and exerted its effect on the present particle. It did not randomly decide to pop into existence, but already had its part to play ordained since the dawn of creation. Particles move freely backwards and forwards through time as defined by the physical laws of the universe.

The double slit experiment shows how light and matter can display characteristics of both waves and particles. In the original experiment, a laser emits photons through a double slit setup onto a photo-receptive plate, resulting in an interference pattern suggesting that light behaves as a wave. However, the light absorbed is always found in discrete bands as individual particles. Furthermore, when a detector is placed at a slit we find that each photon only passes through one slit, functioning like a particle. This phenomenon is known as complementarity - the act of measuring a particle interacts with it such that the original trajectory is destroyed, and the interference pattern disappears.

Now consider the experiment from the particle's point of view. It exists on the plate until such time that a force draws it towards the double slit, backwards through time and into the photon emitter. When undisturbed, it can take either pathway through the double slits, owing to the unpredictable movement of microscopic particles. When we try to detect the particle, it already 'knows' that it cannot take one pathway over the other. Of course, the past has equal effect on the future state, so the particle in the future originates from such a point that the intereference pattern does not exist. This represents the fundamental nature of predeterminism.
« Last Edit: 18/09/2015 14:37:04 by sam7 »


 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #1 on: 18/09/2015 14:31:41 »
Could the future already exist?



No, a future is not written, a future has not yet come to the presence, we live in the now and ''move/travel'' into our future. An independent future to each others future. Sometimes independent futures cross paths and futures collide into the now,  such as if in the future a drink driver kills a pedestrian the driver and the pedestrians future have met at a specific point in their own independent time.
 

Offline sam7

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #2 on: 18/09/2015 17:03:56 »
I have put a lot of effort into trying to define parts of Quantum Mechanics and how they might relate to predeterminism.

Please can you illustrate where I am at fault, rather than just saying 'no'?
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #3 on: 18/09/2015 23:27:15 »
I have put a lot of effort into trying to define parts of Quantum Mechanics and how they might relate to predeterminism.

Please can you illustrate where I am at fault, rather than just saying 'no'?

Well simply time is not free to travel both forwards and backwards and there is  reason for Quantum Mechanics to suggest that the future is decided by chance.
Time is a measurement, we do not travel through a measurement, we measure our own time travelling a measurement.
Time moves with us, the rate of our own dependent time travels with us.   The future could only be predefined if the future was as a pre-set sequence of events, a randomness in the universe would not exist.

Also if you consider the earth's spin, the speed changes, if there was a predefined future, everything would always move at the same rate.

Unless of cause you are talking biology, then  yes the future is predefined with a pessimistic outlook.
« Last Edit: 18/09/2015 23:32:21 by Thebox »
 

Offline sam7

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #4 on: 19/09/2015 08:00:09 »
The randomness element you refer to is provided by matter, energy and forces of the universal laws.

Think of the Mendelbrot set. Notice how seemingly random images arise from complex quadratic polynomials. From an outside perspective, we already know all of the points and plots within each iteration, but to a single point it might seem that everything is random. This is a bit of a crude analogy because of the nature of math application implies that the next point follows the first, but in predeterminism the present and future states also decides the previous ones. They do not exist separately. Also, symmetry is not present because the universe is not a quadratic equation.  ;D

So the Earth would continue to spin, and apparent randomness would exist. Everything functions as we experience it now.
« Last Edit: 19/09/2015 08:13:36 by sam7 »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #5 on: 19/09/2015 11:28:27 »
Quote
The randomness element you refer to is provided by matter, energy and forces of the universal laws.

Think of the Mendelbrot set. Notice how seemingly random images arise from complex quadratic polynomials. From an outside perspective, we already know all of the points and plots within each iteration, but to a single point it might seem that everything is random. This is a bit of a crude analogy because of the nature of math application implies that the next point follows the first, but in predeterminism the present and future states also decides the previous ones. They do not exist separately. Also, symmetry is not present because the universe is not a quadratic equation.  ;D

So the Earth would continue to spin, and apparent randomness would exist. Everything functions as we experience it now.


The earth continues to spin because of Newtons Laws, there is no mystery to it, a predefined future would have to be already written.

Lets say you play poker, and over continued time using one deck of cards you received 100 individual hands that take 1 hour to play, one hand after each other, for every shuffle determines your values you will receive, a future you have not yet received, once the deck is set, your future is predetermined although unknown of the value you will receive.
But the future is written one hand at a time,
now imagine if you had 100 decks of cards and they are already shuffled, that is 1 hour into the future already written, if you was to intercept decks rather than order, you are bringing values from your future forward in time. All values occupying time at the same specific time, where as with a single deck, nothing is written and only one value after the shuffle can be equal to your continued time, at that time.


The one hundred decks, would be a predetermined future existing all at the present time,


Do you understand this, that the future is something that is not written?
 

Offline sam7

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #6 on: 19/09/2015 13:27:39 »
I understand your point of view. Do you understand mine?
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #7 on: 19/09/2015 14:13:40 »
I understand your point of view. Do you understand mine?

Not really, but again it is a matter of definition of how one perceives something.  I define the future as something that is not yet written, a path we have not taken yet, when talking about humans,
but if I was talking about the universe and things like ''prediction'' , yes the future is already written because we all know that a body will remain at velocity X unless acted upon by external forces, so we can ''predict'' a future position of a body travelling velocity X.



 

Offline sam7

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #8 on: 20/09/2015 17:08:39 »
Determinism is to do with predicting events.

Predeterminism is to do with the future already existing.

At least, that's my grasp of the definitions. I have found that people get very annoyed if you mess it up.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #9 on: 21/09/2015 11:08:26 »
Determinism is to do with predicting events.

Predeterminism is to do with the future already existing.

At least, that's my grasp of the definitions. I have found that people get very annoyed if you mess it up.


'predicting' an event is a term I hate, it makes science sound like they declare themselves to be clairvoyants, science does not really predict, it is inevitable , i.e the planetary line up, orbital path,


 

Offline sam7

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #10 on: 21/09/2015 11:39:43 »
What term would you prefer that we used to measure the possibilities of an outcome?
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #11 on: 21/09/2015 12:07:29 »
What term would you prefer that we used to measure the possibilities of an outcome?

Well possible outcomes is probability, for prediction I would simply prefer calculate, we calculate paths that give not a predicted result but rather the result of something inevitable.
 

Offline sam7

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #12 on: 21/09/2015 12:32:55 »
Calculate. Excellent choice.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #13 on: 21/09/2015 12:57:21 »
Δ

Predeterminism is to do with the future already existing.


That's an oxymoron. The future is by definition what hasn't happened yet. What exists now is the result of stuff that has already happened. Now to some extent the future is indeed dependent on the present, but as far as we know it is inherently unpredictable. At the very least, nuclear decay is entirely random, and since we do not have general solutions to all multibody interactions, the future is unpredictable in practice.

It would be an interesting exercise to calculate the time Tt it would take to calculate the position of every atom in the universe at t + Δt. However we can shortcircuit that calculation by pointing out that to do so would require energy to be devoted to the task of computation, which would disturb the universe we are trying to predict. Thus Tt > Δt always and the future us not fully predictable.
 

Offline sam7

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #14 on: 21/09/2015 13:46:27 »
Being unable to predict the future because measuring a particle affects its position or velocity is not the same thing as the future already existing.

Don't you see that if the present depends on the future, seemingly random behaviour is not random at all? It would simply be the way matter/energy interacts.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #15 on: 22/09/2015 14:09:23 »
Is the future predetermined?

Existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence.



Existing in thought or as an idea and having a physical or concrete existence.



Your question needs a two part answer. The two parts leads to one answer.

Yes the future is pre-determined.
 

Offline ProjectSailor

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #16 on: 24/09/2015 12:52:59 »
If you knew every facet of every single item in the universe, the fact we have physical laws means that we can predict everything, hence everything is predetermined.. Something we may perceive as random is actually the culmination of interactions that lead to a specific outcome.

Until you include anything with free will.. i.e. life. we affect and change the future of the universe since we are not bound to working within physical laws.. we can apply our own forces, move and change things that we aren't meant to have an interaction with etc.

So is the future predetermined.. yes (if the laws we know are really immutable in every single case micro and macro) but ours isn't or anything we interact with.

A better question is "is anything truly random'
 

Offline sam7

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #17 on: 24/09/2015 19:09:07 »
If you knew every facet of every single item in the universe, the fact we have physical laws means that we can predict everything, hence everything is predetermined.. Something we may perceive as random is actually the culmination of interactions that lead to a specific outcome.

QM teaches this, but isn't it contradicted by the very same QM that also teaches things spontaneously appear for no reason? How can you predict that, even when you know the trajectory and position of every bit of matter in the universe?

There is so much wrong with QM in my opinion, people need to start questioning it more.



 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #18 on: 24/09/2015 19:18:40 »


QM teaches this, but isn't it contradicted by the very same QM that also teaches things spontaneously appear for no reason? How can you predict that, even when you know the trajectory and position of every bit of matter in the universe?

There is so much wrong with QM in my opinion, people need to start questioning it more.


The facts are all matter is not mortal, the inevitable is  deterministic unlike that of space , which is certainly mortal.


 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #19 on: 26/09/2015 00:57:26 »

QM teaches this, but isn't it contradicted by the very same QM that also teaches things spontaneously appear for no reason? How can you predict that, even when you know the trajectory and position of every bit of matter in the universe?


On the contrary, QM includes the principle of indeterminacy: you cannot know the trajectory and position of everything - or even of anything - to an infinitesimal degree of precision. Quantum mechanics is the description of what actually happens, including the fact that atoms are a lot bigger than their nuclei, thanks to indeterminacy.
 

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Re: Is the future predetermined?
« Reply #19 on: 26/09/2015 00:57:26 »

 

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