# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Does the Sun bend its own light?  (Read 6885 times)

#### Colin2B

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1921
• Thanked: 123 times
##### Re: Does the Sun bend its own light?
« Reply #25 on: 30/09/2015 23:29:24 »
To better understand what I mean by that, you may refer to my thread on inertial motion:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=53171.msg467891#msg467891
Ok, I'll have a look at that.
Probably better if we continue this post over there as it has now moved very much into new theories territory.
Interesting idea though.
However, I think you'll find that the rays should be bent towards the centre, but the effect is so small that they still reach us here on earth causing the sun to appear infinitesimally larger.
« Last Edit: 30/09/2015 23:35:04 by Colin2B »

#### mathew_orman

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 132
##### Re: Does the Sun bend its own light?
« Reply #26 on: 01/10/2015 07:58:48 »
And what about my proposition that the rays might get curved the same way aberration curves them, but by the acceleration of the earth towards the sun instead of its inertial motion around it?
I will not speculate on a nonexistent property which was only invented for the SR theory...
If gravitation lensing would exist then any light going towards the center of Sun would break its own C speed and become FTL...

#### Le Repteux

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 27
##### Re: Does the Sun bend its own light?
« Reply #27 on: 01/10/2015 14:15:42 »
Interesting idea though.
Thanks Mathew! I hope you will also find my other thread interesting.

Quote
However, I think you'll find that the rays should be bent towards the center, but the effect is so small that they still reach us here on earth causing the sun to appear infinitesimally larger.
If the steps of a constant acceleration work like those of a constant motion, they should cause the same kind of aberration, so the rays should appear to come from the direction of motion, like snow flakes against a windshield, what would shrink the real diameter of the sun and the real optical angle of the star, but unfortunately, the observations show that the optical angle of the star is enlarged. If both were enlarged by the acceleration, this idea would fit the observations, but the small steps would not explain the phenomenon, and bending neither.
« Last Edit: 01/10/2015 17:53:44 by Le Repteux »

#### Le Repteux

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 27
##### Re: Does the Sun bend its own light?
« Reply #28 on: 01/10/2015 17:55:30 »
Mathew,
What means FTL?

PS. OK, I found it: Faster Than Light.

But the observations show that only the frequency is affected, not the speed. The only real parameters that we can observe from light is direction and frequency, its speed is unobservable one way because it would take something faster than light to measure it, and if we try to measure it two ways, no matter the speed of the source or the observer, we always get the same result.

Incidentally, the small steps that I am talking about work the same way, an observer on one of them could not measure the speed of the information that drives them, so the only parameters available is frequency for directional motion, and aberration for tangential motion.
« Last Edit: 03/10/2015 18:19:58 by Le Repteux »

#### Le Repteux

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 27
##### Re: Does the Sun bend its own light?
« Reply #29 on: 20/10/2015 14:37:43 »
I think I found a way to test my point!

If the sun's light was really curved by its own gravity, it follows that a spiral galaxy light would also be, which means that its apparent diameter would also look larger than it really is. In the case of galaxies, the measure of their rotational speed made at different heights would thus be attributed to larger heights than the real ones, which could explain the lack of gravitational pull that we attribute to Black Matter. Anybody wants to help me with the maths?

#### RD

• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 8132
• Thanked: 53 times
##### Re: Does the Sun bend its own light?
« Reply #30 on: 20/10/2015 18:30:34 »
I think I found a way to test my point!

If the sun's light was really curved by its own gravity, it follows that a spiral galaxy light would also be, which means that its apparent diameter would also look larger than it really is. In the case of galaxies, the measure of their rotational speed made at different heights would thus be attributed to larger heights than the real ones, which could explain the lack of gravitational pull that we attribute to Black Matter. Anybody wants to help me with the maths?

Before you reach for the calculator, see this thread ...
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=57242.0

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 18
##### Re: Does the Sun bend its own light?
« Reply #31 on: 26/10/2015 00:21:38 »
I think your idea has merit to a certain degree.  If light travels a straight path it would simply slow down due to gravity and then speed back up to light speed as it travels farther away from the greatest source of gravity.  If there is any deviation whatsoever to the left or right in the photon, then yes, I believe it would be altered.  Good question!

#### Le Repteux

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 27
##### Re: Does the Sun bend its own light?
« Reply #32 on: 26/10/2015 14:15:25 »

Quote from: Janus
let's work out an example and see if this is even feasible. We'll assume a galaxy 100,000 light years across with a mass of 100,000,000,000 solar masses which is 1 billion light years away.

The light from a source behind this galaxy and just skimming its edge, would by gravitational lensing be deflected by 0.258 sec of arc. Since 1/2 of this deflection occurs on the inbound path, the most we can expect light coming from a star at the edge to be bent on its outward path to us is 0.129 sec of arc.

At a distance of 1 billion light years, this equates to an apparent displacement of ~625 light years ( meaning the galaxy would appear to be 50,625 light years in radius instead of 50,000.)

Calculating the difference in orbital speed at 50,000 vs. 50625 light years produces orbital velocities of 167 km/sec vs. 168 km/sec.

If we work out how much extra mass it would take to make that 1 km/sec difference at a fixed radius of 50625 light years, it works out to a difference of ~1.2%, or far short of the amount of dark matter needed to make up for the missing mass according to the actual orbital velocities we measure.

In addition, gravitational lensing in fact gives us additional evidence for dark matter. Because of the extra mass due to DM, the light passing galaxies bends more than and differently from what we would expect from just the matter we see.

On top of that, we have the case of the Bullet Cluster, in which dark matter has been "knocked loose" from the visible matter in a collision between galaxy clusters. In this situation we see gravitational lensing of objects behind the cluster where there is no visible matter to cause it.

Galaxy rotation curves may have set us on the road to dark matter, but there has been a great deal of other supporting evidence uncovered since the first step on that path.
http://www.thescienceforum.com/astronomy-cosmology/49499-can-dark-matter-optical-illusion-caused-gravitational-lensing.html#post636400 [nofollow]

So maybe that bending cannot account for dark matter, but it still could increase the apparent sun's diameter in the same proportion it curves starlight, which means that all the drawings showing the sun hiding the stars during an eclipse would be wrong. Amazing, no?

To me, it means that light might not be affected during its journey, but that its apparent direction would depend on the real acceleration of the observer towards all the stars at the time, the acceleration to the center of the sun thus changing the direction of the rays that point to more distant stars, or even the direction of its own rays providing they do not point to its center.

#### Craig W. Thomson

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 370
• Thanked: 4 times
##### Re: Bending of the sun's own light
« Reply #33 on: 26/10/2015 15:34:33 »
Yes, in my opinion, based on experimental evidence, gravity has no effect on electromagnetic waves, photons, magnetic fields and electric fields...
But it does affect the frequency of all oscillating structures including pendulum and atomic clocks...
What?

Electromagnetic waves ARE an oscillation. A photon is comprised of an electric component and a magnetic component, both of which oscillate. Magnetic and electric fields are actually comprised of photons.

#### Colin2B

• Global Moderator
• Neilep Level Member
• Posts: 1921
• Thanked: 123 times
##### Re: Bending of the sun's own light
« Reply #34 on: 26/10/2015 17:32:25 »
Yes, in my opinion, based on experimental evidence, gravity has no effect on electromagnetic waves, photons, magnetic fields and electric fields...
But it does affect the frequency of all oscillating structures including pendulum and atomic clocks...
What?

Electromagnetic waves ARE an oscillation. A photon is comprised of an electric component and a magnetic component, both of which oscillate. Magnetic and electric fields are actually comprised of photons.
don't worry, he's said all sorts of illogical things. Doesn't beleive in neutrons!

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Bending of the sun's own light
« Reply #34 on: 26/10/2015 17:32:25 »