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Author Topic: Do words and phrases give us qualia?  (Read 5454 times)

Offline Detective L Ryuzaki

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Do words and phrases give us qualia?
« on: 02/10/2015 12:42:25 »
I struggle with depression and I have this philosophical question that I need an answer for. Actually, it might even be a scientific question.

Now I need to know the answer to this very vital question. I am thinking that there is only one way love, joy, happiness, and inspiration can be experienced. That being, through our reward system (our good moods). The more our reward system is functional and healthy, the more of those things we will have in our lives since our good moods would be greater. But like I said before, there is the difference between words and phrases and our mental states.

So by depressed people focusing on words and phrases alone of love, joy, happiness, and inspiration, they are only fooling themselves into thinking they are in love, joyful, happy, and inspired while depressed when they never were since depression as well as anhedonia are what turn off our reward system (our good moods). Even if they focused on the mental state of their thinking while depressed and told themselves that this is a form of love, joy, happiness, and inspiration, then they would be fooling themselves here as well since they are not in the actual mental state of having those things.

So they would be fooling themselves through this whole world of personally creating our own meanings in life and personally defining them for ourselves which would have to be false since there is only one way to experience those said things I've mentioned. There is only one way to experience the mental state of visualizing objects (sight) and perceiving sound (hearing). If you were to become blind and deaf, then your thoughts alone cannot give you that mental state.

If a blind and deaf person thought to his/herself that he/she still has sight and hearing, then that would not give him/her sight and hearing. That would only give him/her nothing more than the labels (words and phrases) of sight and hearing.

So there is only one function that gives us our mental states of visualizing objects and perceiving sound just as how there is also only one way to experience touch, smell, taste, etc. So in that same sense, there is also only one way to have good meaning, love, joy, happiness, and inspiration. There is only one function of our brains that can give us that. There is only one mental state that can give us those things. That being, the mental state of our good moods as I've said before.

If you are going to say something to me such as that we can have good meaning, love, joy, happiness, and inspiration through our way of thinking alone even while depressed and not in a good mood, then you have to prove to me how this is the actual mental state of having those things and not just the words and phrases of those things.

My question is, is my theory right or wrong?  If it is wrong, then you are going to have to prove it wrong.  You cannot just say that we can have those things in our lives while depressed.  You have to do what the last paragraph above says.  You have to prove to me how that is the actual mental state of perceiving those things.

In case I ever have to live my life depressed, then it is vital I find the answer.  I am thinking that having good meaning in one's life is not just simply from knowing things.  It is being in the mental state of love, joy, happiness, and inspiration in doing those things.  For example, if you were not in any mental state of love, joy, happiness, or inspiration at all and were in a completely blank hopeless state and you just knew to yourself deep down that you have to go and save your family's life since they have good meaning to you, then they would not have any good meaning to you at all.  You are telling yourself nothing more than just words and phrases of good meaning.  The only way you can actually perceive them as having good meaning to you would be if you were in an inspired, happy, loving, and joyful mental state in saving their lives. 

So, in short, since you were not in a good mood while saving their lives, then your family would actually have no good meaning to you in that given moment when you were depressed and in a blank mental state.  For you to live your life just through knowing things while depressed and just thinking that has good meaning to you, that is living your life as an utterly inferior dead lifeless biological machine.  It is our good moods that make us and our lives something.  It is only our good moods that can give good meaning to our lives from our friends, family, and our goals/dreams.  Therefore, even all the famous genius artists and composers who struggled with depression were nothing great.  They and their lives were nothing great.  Their works of art cannot mean anything to them during their depression and nor can the idea that they helped/inspired others all around the world and made their lives good.  Nor can their own works of art mean anything good to them either.
« Last Edit: 02/10/2015 20:32:28 by Detective L Ryuzaki »


 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Vital Question
« Reply #1 on: 02/10/2015 13:02:38 »


If you are going to say something to me such as that we can have good meaning, love, joy, happiness, and inspiration through our way of thinking alone even while depressed and not in a good mood, then you have to prove to me how this is the actual mental state of having those things and not just the words and phrases of those things.


Ok you want proof, your illness has already give you a meaning in life, the proof is right here, you have a meaning to try to find out about your illness, you have intent to cure it.  You will be ''glad'' inside when you work it out although you might not show emotion.
Emotions are a weak human perception.
What you have to remember is happiness is not just all smiling and laughing, it comes in many forms.   I am happy I am alive, I am happy I eat food, I am happy sitting here talking to you,

am I smiling and laughing, of cause not, funny does not mean happiness, and smiling does not mean much at all except a facial expression.

And one thing you must always remember, just because you do not feel love, that does not mean you do not experience it, remember that other people around you still feel quite well, so they can feel hurt unlike yourself. Consideration is the key, make your mind a logical robotic like machine, it works for me, use the logic to give yourself the answers.
tell yourself just because I do not feel that does not make me logically unhappy.


P.s This is science but belongs in the Physiology section. Can the mods move appropriately please
« Last Edit: 02/10/2015 13:11:06 by Thebox »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Vital Question
« Reply #2 on: 02/10/2015 13:16:31 »
Quote from: Detective L Ryuzaki
Even if they focused on the mental state of their thinking ... then they would be fooling themselves here as well since they are not in the actual mental state of having those things.
There have been experiments where getting people to imagine themselves in a particular mental state (eg stand up tall, and say to yourself 5 times "I am Powerful") actually gets people to change their behavior.

So in some cases, you can change your mental state by just thinking about an alternative state.

Someone who has something physically wrong with their eyes won't be able to eliminate that problem by just by imagining that it is gone. And there may be some people who have a biological imbalance that causes them to be depressed that may be similarly difficult to overcome.

However, even if only 10% of people can change their mental state by imagining it, then it is still worth trying, because it then empowers that person. For those who don't respond to this therapy, there are drugs that can often help - but they do have side-effects.

So I would say - talk to a counselor. Try imagining an alternative condition. It works for some people; if it works for you, a drug-free therapy is preferred.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Vital Question
« Reply #3 on: 02/10/2015 13:27:45 »
Quote from: Detective L Ryuzaki
Even if they focused on the mental state of their thinking ... then they would be fooling themselves here as well since they are not in the actual mental state of having those things.
There have been experiments where getting people to imagine themselves in a particular mental state (eg stand up tall, and say to yourself 5 times "I am Powerful") actually gets people to change their behavior.

So in some cases, you can change your mental state by just thinking about an alternative state.

Someone who has something physically wrong with their eyes won't be able to eliminate that problem by just by imagining that it is gone. And there may be some people who have a biological imbalance that causes them to be depressed that may be similarly difficult to overcome.

However, even if only 10% of people can change their mental state by imagining it, then it is still worth trying, because it then empowers that person. For those who don't respond to this therapy, there are drugs that can often help - but they do have side-effects.

So I would say - talk to a counselor. Try imagining an alternative condition. It works for some people; if it works for you, a drug-free therapy is preferred.

Well said Evan, like I imagined I am this brilliant scientist and have discovered the entire universe to reality, but in researching the why's I do this, delusions of grandeur etc, it improved my mental state and I now logically know I am becoming quite good at science and have lots of knowledge about this,  this education is making me feel ''happier'', I have a purpose in life now although it will probably remain a hobby ,it is still a purpose, I think the meaning to life is to have a purpose in life so we don't become bored with life.
 
 

Offline Detective L Ryuzaki

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Re: Vital Question
« Reply #4 on: 02/10/2015 13:56:08 »
Quote from: Thebox
Ok you want proof, your illness has already give you a meaning in life, the proof is right here, you have a meaning to try to find out about your illness, you have intent to cure it.  You will be ''glad'' inside when you work it out although you might not show emotion.
Emotions are a weak human perception.
What you have to remember is happiness is not just all smiling and laughing, it comes in many forms.   I am happy I am alive, I am happy I eat food, I am happy sitting here talking to you,

am I smiling and laughing, of cause not, funny does not mean happiness, and smiling does not mean much at all except a facial expression.

And one thing you must always remember, just because you do not feel love, that does not mean you do not experience it, remember that other people around you still feel quite well, so they can feel hurt unlike yourself. Consideration is the key, make your mind a logical robotic like machine, it works for me, use the logic to give yourself the answers.
tell yourself just because I do not feel that does not make me logically unhappy.


P.s This is science but belongs in the Physiology section. Can the mods move appropriately please

That is not actually good meaning.  I would be doing nothing more than preferring to talk about my depression and getting help.  I would still have no good meaning, happiness, love, joy, or inspiration.  If I told myself I have those things, then that would just be nothing more than the words and phrases of those things.  Not the actual mental state of having them.  So for that very reason, being a logical biological robot is utterly inferior, "dead" and "nothing."  It is only our good moods that make us "human" and "alive."
« Last Edit: 02/10/2015 13:58:45 by Detective L Ryuzaki »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Vital Question
« Reply #5 on: 02/10/2015 14:15:00 »
Quote from: Thebox
Ok you want proof, your illness has already give you a meaning in life, the proof is right here, you have a meaning to try to find out about your illness, you have intent to cure it.  You will be ''glad'' inside when you work it out although you might not show emotion.
Emotions are a weak human perception.
What you have to remember is happiness is not just all smiling and laughing, it comes in many forms.   I am happy I am alive, I am happy I eat food, I am happy sitting here talking to you,

am I smiling and laughing, of cause not, funny does not mean happiness, and smiling does not mean much at all except a facial expression.

And one thing you must always remember, just because you do not feel love, that does not mean you do not experience it, remember that other people around you still feel quite well, so they can feel hurt unlike yourself. Consideration is the key, make your mind a logical robotic like machine, it works for me, use the logic to give yourself the answers.
tell yourself just because I do not feel that does not make me logically unhappy.


P.s This is science but belongs in the Physiology section. Can the mods move appropriately please

That is not actually good meaning.  I would be doing nothing more than preferring to talk about my depression and getting help.  I would still have no good meaning, happiness, love, joy, or inspiration.  If I told myself I have those things, then that would just be nothing more than the words and phrases of those things.  Not the actual mental state of having them.  So for that very reason, being a logical biological robot is utterly inferior, "dead" and "nothing."  It is only our good moods that make us "human" and "alive."

You recognise the difference yourself by putting human and alive in quotation brackets, your logic is already telling you that you are human and certainly are alive, listen to yourself, stop talking as if in a sermon, 


This repeated sentence by yourself -  ''I would still have no good meaning, happiness, love, joy, or inspiration.''  is logically your trigger that is holding you in the place where you are at.

Imagine sitting at a crossroads , we will call this the cross roads of life, we have four directions we can take, firstly we travel the north direction, travel through time to find a locked gate where it transports us back to the cross roads,
we start again and take the easterly path, again we find a locked gate and are transported back to the crossroads.
we try again the south path, again the same thing happens the gate is locked and we are transported back to the cross roads.
We sit and stare at the west path, exhausted and confused why other people seem to find an open gate, we are scared to travel the final path, our existence time left is down to a solitary path.
Do we sit and stare at the path in fear of wasting our precious time left, or do we never give up and die trying?

Stuck in limbo is not defeat, it is a logical stalemate.


Have you made it in life?

have you tried and tried again in love and work etc and always failed to make an impact?


I want to give you a song to keep and to listen to and read.


and also hear this message. (swearing in this video)




 
« Last Edit: 02/10/2015 14:37:28 by Thebox »
 

Offline Detective L Ryuzaki

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Re: Vital Question
« Reply #6 on: 02/10/2015 15:59:41 »
Quote from: Thebox[/quote
You recognise the difference yourself by putting human and alive in quotation brackets, your logic is already telling you that you are human and certainly are alive, listen to yourself, stop talking as if in a sermon, 


This repeated sentence by yourself -  ''I would still have no good meaning, happiness, love, joy, or inspiration.''  is logically your trigger that is holding you in the place where you are at.

Imagine sitting at a crossroads , we will call this the cross roads of life, we have four directions we can take, firstly we travel the north direction, travel through time to find a locked gate where it transports us back to the cross roads,
we start again and take the easterly path, again we find a locked gate and are transported back to the crossroads.
we try again the south path, again the same thing happens the gate is locked and we are transported back to the cross roads.
We sit and stare at the west path, exhausted and confused why other people seem to find an open gate, we are scared to travel the final path, our existence time left is down to a solitary path.
Do we sit and stare at the path in fear of wasting our precious time left, or do we never give up and die trying?

Stuck in limbo is not defeat, it is a logical stalemate.


Have you made it in life?

have you tried and tried again in love and work etc and always failed to make an impact?


I want to give you a song to keep and to listen to and read.


and also hear this message. (swearing in this video)


Thanks.  But never once have I ever found good meaning, love, joy, happiness, and inspiration in my life while in a depressed mood.  Only during the times when I was in a good mood did I have those things.  But I now have chronic 24/7 anhedonia.  So I cannot be in a good mood at all anymore.  Every time I live and pursue my goals and dreams, that only brings me rage since I have no good meaning in my life.  Rage just makes my life worse and gives it only bad meaning.  There are then many moments of depression as well.  Depression is far worse.  It makes my life really bad.
« Last Edit: 02/10/2015 16:03:41 by Detective L Ryuzaki »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Vital Question
« Reply #7 on: 02/10/2015 16:09:11 »
PLEASE EDIT / REFORMAT THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD TO TURN IT INTO A RELEVANT QUESTION, IN LINE WITH THE USER AGREEMENT SIGNED AT REGISTRATION AND AS THE THREAD TITLE INPUT BOX REQUESTS.

THREADS NOT CORRECTLY TITLED WILL BE DELETED.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION
I think the opp is asking,

if a chemical unbalance of the body causes a depression state , where the mind does not detect emotional rewards, can a person still conceive their life still has purpose and meaning.  Can depressive medication  ever be more than a placebo and replace this loss?
 

Offline Detective L Ryuzaki

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Re: Vital Question
« Reply #8 on: 02/10/2015 16:17:11 »
PLEASE EDIT / REFORMAT THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD TO TURN IT INTO A RELEVANT QUESTION, IN LINE WITH THE USER AGREEMENT SIGNED AT REGISTRATION AND AS THE THREAD TITLE INPUT BOX REQUESTS.

THREADS NOT CORRECTLY TITLED WILL BE DELETED.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION
I think the opp is asking,

if a chemical unbalance of the body causes a depression state , where the mind does not detect emotional rewards, can a person still conceive their life still has purpose and meaning.  Can depressive medication  ever be more than a placebo and replace this loss?

Yes.  My question is, is my theory right or wrong?  If it is wrong, then you are going to have to prove it wrong.  You cannot just say that we can have those things in our lives while depressed.  You have to do what the last paragraph above says.  You have to prove to me how that is the actual mental state of perceiving those things.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Vital Question
« Reply #9 on: 02/10/2015 16:33:21 »
PLEASE EDIT / REFORMAT THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD TO TURN IT INTO A RELEVANT QUESTION, IN LINE WITH THE USER AGREEMENT SIGNED AT REGISTRATION AND AS THE THREAD TITLE INPUT BOX REQUESTS.

THREADS NOT CORRECTLY TITLED WILL BE DELETED.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION
I think the opp is asking,

if a chemical unbalance of the body causes a depression state , where the mind does not detect emotional rewards, can a person still conceive their life still has purpose and meaning.  Can depressive medication  ever be more than a placebo and replace this loss?

Yes.  My question is, is my theory right or wrong?  If it is wrong, then you are going to have to prove it wrong.  You cannot just say that we can have those things in our lives while depressed.  You have to do what the last paragraph above says.  You have to prove to me how that is the actual mental state of perceiving those things.

The burden of proof would be on you to prove your theory correct and like I have suggested you would need to do a poll of similar condition sufferers and do a statistical analysis of your data. 
Medication can sometime make a person only feel temporarily better.


p.s you need to change your thread title to a question.
« Last Edit: 02/10/2015 16:40:07 by Thebox »
 

Offline Detective L Ryuzaki

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Re: I need an answer to my philosophy
« Reply #10 on: 02/10/2015 18:07:37 »
In case I ever have to live my life depressed, then it is vital I find the answer.  I am thinking that having good meaning in one's life is not just simply from knowing things.  It is being in the mental state of love, joy, happiness, and inspiration in doing those things.  For example, if you were not in any mental state of love, joy, happiness, or inspiration at all and were in a completely blank hopeless state and you just knew to yourself deep down that you have to go and save your family's life since they have good meaning to you, then they would not have any good meaning to you at all.  You are telling yourself nothing more than just words and phrases of good meaning.  The only way you can actually perceive them as having good meaning to you would be if you were in an inspired, happy, loving, and joyful mental state in saving their lives. 

So, in short, since you were not in a good mood while saving their lives, then your family would actually have no good meaning to you in that given moment when you were depressed and in a blank mental state.  For you to live your life just through knowing things while depressed and just thinking that has good meaning to you, that is living your life as an utterly inferior dead lifeless biological machine.  It is our good moods that make us and our lives something.  It is only our good moods that can give good meaning to our lives from our friends, family, and our goals/dreams.  Therefore, even all the famous genius artists and composers who struggled with depression were nothing great.  They and their lives were nothing great.  Their works of art cannot mean anything to them during their depression and nor can the idea that they helped/inspired others all around the world and made their lives good.  Nor can their own works of art mean anything good to them either.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: I need an answer to my philosophy
« Reply #11 on: 02/10/2015 19:43:47 »
In case I ever have to live my life depressed,



Suggesting you are not depressed and actually trolling. good bye
 

Offline Detective L Ryuzaki

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Re: I need an answer to my philosophy
« Reply #12 on: 02/10/2015 19:47:34 »
AS REQUESTED - PLEASE RE-FORMAT THE TITLE OF YOUR POST TO PHRASE IT AS A RELEVANT QUESTION.

OTHERWISE, THIS THREAD WILL BE REMOVED IN 24 HOURS.

How do you want me to title it?

In case I ever have to live my life depressed,



Suggesting you are not depressed and actually trolling. good bye

What I meant to say here was if I lived my entire life with depression.  I have gotten over my depression I had in the past for now though for the most part.
« Last Edit: 02/10/2015 19:49:29 by Detective L Ryuzaki »
 

Offline Detective L Ryuzaki

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You need to phrase the title as a question. Like this: "Why is the sky blue?" / "What causes headaches?"

I did it.  Is it alright now?

Here is a response from someone and my reply to it that gets the very idea of my topic across in a brief way:

Response:   I find it funny that some people prioritize abstractions ( words,concepts such as physicalism) above the empirical (qualia).  Qualia being our subjective mental experiences. In other words they hide from immediate reality (feelings/qualia) behind words. Symbols replaced reality!  The word "food" does not provide nourishment and nor does the word "water" quench one's thirst.  So what Matt is saying here is that words and phrases of good meaning, bad meaning, love, joy, happiness, inspiration, suffering, despair, anguish, sadness, rage, grief, etc. do not give us anything either. 

In that sense qualia is related to Matt's theory.

My Reply:  Yes, this is correct. I am thinking that even good and bad are qualia as well. They would be our good and bad moods. If we are depressed, then just the words and phrases of good meaning won't give us anything. I think science has yet to discover that good and bad are qualia. Currently, we think they are not. But I am thinking otherwise.
« Last Edit: 02/10/2015 20:43:09 by Detective L Ryuzaki »
 

Offline chris

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Re: Do words and phrases give us qualia?
« Reply #14 on: 03/10/2015 07:52:23 »
Thanks for fixing the title.
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: Do words and phrases give us qualia?
« Reply #15 on: 03/10/2015 12:05:06 »
Works are just sounds/noises that we all agree upon, to represent something. Sounds/words allow us to convey meaning to each other. Words are not needed, when we experience things directly. For example, say I had 100 people, all of which spoke a different language. I place a cat on a table. Although there may be 100 different sounds/noises, by which each of the 100 people, will convey this to their friends, they all will see the same cat in their mind. The direct experience is far more universal and not dependent on a unique noise or sound. However, the universal visual is not easy to convey. Try to explain this to another person who speaks another language who also saw it. Ancient languages would draw pictures or  use charades.

PC, which places too much emphasis on the ability of sounds/noises to harm or sooth. It attempts to condition people to think the noise comes first, as though certain noises can trigger universal experience. These same sounds/noises will not work properly on members of other cultures, who use different languages. I can insult you in a foreign language, while smiling and that noise would not even bother you even of meaning is the same. You have not yet been conditioned like a trained seal. Instead you will see the smile, which is universal, and smile back. 

Relative to the topic at hand, each culture has words for various emotions and states of mind, which help us convey meaning between each other. This is not the same as direct experiences, but it is half way there. Depression in any culture and any language is a common human state of introspection, by which we can detach from the power of words. Often words alone are not enough to convey a bridge to the other side. If one meets another in the same state of mind, a bond can form since what they share is beyond the words; human nature.
 

Offline Detective L Ryuzaki

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Re: Do words and phrases give us qualia?
« Reply #16 on: 03/10/2015 17:14:45 »
Honestly, I never saw the greatness and good value/worth having depression and an absence of good moods in one's life. Our good moods take on the form of the very personality of things/people we witness. For example, if you noticed a heavenly goddess like character in an anime/videogame, then if you were to experience a good mood from her, then it would not just simply be a good mood. It would be a good mood that has her tonality (personality) to it. So you would actually be experiencing her personality through your good moods. It would be as if you are sensing her life (spirit) energy.

Same thing applies if you were to experience a good mood from a villan. Once your perceptions of this villan through your thinking alone sends the pleasure signal to your reward system and gives you the experience of a good mood, then your good mood would have an awesome, evil, hardcore, dark, gothic, heavy, serious, epic tone to it. It would be like you are experiencing the spirit energy of that villan. It would be as if you are experiencing the life essence of that villan in a good way.

Therefore, our bad moods aren't the only things that have the heavy, dark, gothic, serious tone to them to create works of art. We can create such dark, gothic, and tragic works of art through our good moods alone and they can turn out to be just as good and even better than how we created them while down and depressed or in any other bad mood.

So you can see why my good moods are so vital and life depending for me. They are more important to me than the air I breathe. They are the only things that can make me "alive" since they are the only things that can allow me to experience and be a part of the goodness ("life") of this universe, the world of anime/videogames, and my composing dream.

If I become hopeless (depressed), then all that life energy is gone. Me and my life are reduced to nothing more than a dead, lifeless, hopeless state similar to that of a hopeless zombie and a biological machine. I don't care if my depression made me the world's next greatest composing or intelligent genius. My life can still have no "life" (good meaning).

Life without "life" is not life at all. Our good moods are a sacred divine transcending energy and are the only things that give good meaning to our lives. But our depression is the opposite. It cripples and destroys our very being, destroys all good meaning in our lives, and gives our lives nothing but bad meaning regardless of what you think and tell yourself otherwise while depressed.
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Do words and phrases give us qualia?
« Reply #17 on: 04/10/2015 09:02:28 »
I recommend that you talk to a professional about feeling depressed.

There are also various help groups available, in various countries, eg:
http://www.beyondblue.org.au/about-us/contact-us
http://www.blackdoginstitute.org.au/

Quote from: Detective L Ryuzaki
I never saw the greatness and good value/worth having depression
It is true that severe depression can be crippling.

However, there have been suggestions that a milder form of depression may be therapeutic in cases where there has been a traumatic emotional experience (eg loss of a loved one) requiring a change in direction. The depressed feelings may be part of the grieving experience.

That is why diagnosis of depression involves identifying any trigger events, and helping the sufferer to work through to the outcome of those triggers.

The more difficult cases of depression to work through are those with no apparent cause.
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: Do words and phrases give us qualia?
« Reply #18 on: 06/10/2015 00:16:31 »
The point I was trying to make is, depression is an internalized form of reality, therefore words may not be enough to fully define the way out. The person with depression will feel things and will visualize internal imagery. These are all internal observations. These can be subtle and since most of this is not outside the person, most can't be seen by others. People see a fraction, based on feedback on the surface. To convey meaning through language would be possible if we could induce the same condition in the second person, so they can have a direct experience from which they might be able to compose valid meaning for all the observations.

As an analogy, say I use a shock collar to give one person a shock of unspecified strength. I give the shock, and they yell and jump. You don't know if this was strong or weak or whether the person is tough or extremely sensitive. We have a second person who is watching. What they can see is the external feedback; the yell and jump.  Since they can't crawl inside the first person's skin, their interpretation of the shock will be based on their own subjectivity using feedback data in the second person. This may not be the actual internal experience of the first person. Their advice and empathy, convey via language, can be off the mark, but seem valid to them.

In the example above, the best way to know the reality of the shock, would be to put oneself in the other person's skin and wear the shock collar. This level of hard data, would eliminate subjectivity in the second person, where the words might sound good for the second person crowd, not the first person. Once you wear the shock collar, you can relate in a reality form of way, but now there may be a wall with those who see in the second person.

The optimum way to treat depression wth words would be to induce this state in the therapist, so he can relate in real time for a language transfer. Two people wearing the shock collar can communicate more accurately. But this does not happen, rather the second hand lead the first hand, with marginal success.
 
 

Offline Atomic-S

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Re: Do words and phrases give us qualia?
« Reply #19 on: 06/10/2015 08:06:36 »
Quote
The optimum way to treat depression wth words would be to induce this state in the therapist, so he can relate in real time for a language transfer. Two people wearing the shock collar can communicate more accurately.
That is correct.  The physician who suffers from the same condition, for example asthma, as his patient, will understand what the patient is going through with a clarity which the unafflicted physician will not.  Of course, the unafflicted physician will have at least some understanding of the patient's condition, so his treatment can be of value nevertheless.

But in all medicine 80% of good medicine lies in the diagnosis.  Getting the diagnosis right is about the most important thing a doctor can do, and if he does not get the diagnosis right, the treatment may be way off the mark.  I will not pretend to be able to diagnose your specific condition, especially from this remote location, so will here be limited to making some generalized comments. 

One is that a feeling of the worthlessness of one's life is not exactly new in the world. It goes all the way back to one of the most noted thinkers in history: Solomon. Solomon said: "Vanity of vanities; all is vanity. What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth forever. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to [its] circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come,  thither they return again. .... The thing that hath been,  is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come [by] those [who] shall come after. ... I the Preacher was  king over Israel in Jerusalem. And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven;: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of men to be exercised therewith. I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.  ... I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will [test my heart] with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and behold, this also is vanity. I said of laughter, It is mad: and of mirth, What doeth it [for my true benefit]? I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, [continuing to acquaint] mine heart with wisdom; and to [experimentally] lay hold on folly [also], till I might see what was that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life. I made me great works: I builded me houses; I planted me vineyards: I made me gardens and orchards , and I planted trees in them of all kind of fruits: I made me pools of water... I got me servants and maidservants ...I gathered me also silver and gold, and the peculiar treasure of kings and of the provinces: I gat me men singers and women singers, and the delights of the sons of men, as musical instruments, and that of all sorts. So I was great, and increased more than all that were before me in Jerusalem: also my wisdom remained with me. And whatosever mine eyes desired I kept not from them. I withheld not my heart from any  joy; for my heart rejoiced in all my labor...  Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labor that I had labored to do: an behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun. ... Therefore I hated life: because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit." 

These are the words of one of the most wealthy and powerful men in history, also one of the wisest in certain ways, and as you will note his assessment of the human condition is nevertheless dismal. 

There was another man who did not keep saying "vanity, vanity, all is vanity", but rather, "This is most certainly true."  Solomon had much acquaintance with that which has no substance that we could put our confidence in it at all.  The other man, however, speaks of something solid and reliable.  Who was this man, and what was it that he found?  His name was Martin Luther, who once was a man very troubled in his soul and could not find satisfactory answers in the teachings of his time, but found what was "most  certainly true" after he started studying the Bible in depth.  He found the answer to Solomon's dilemma. 

Back to the issue of correct diagnosis:  In some ways, what you describe sounds like Solomon's problem.  I am not sure if that is your entire problem. Because there might possibly also be a medical issue, I would advise you to see a physician who specializes in this type of problem.  However, I would also point out that it is very unprofitable to spend endless hours worrying about the terrible state of your worries, inasmuch as that does not help them; and I would suggest setting aside times in which you will force your worries out of your consciousness by applying yourself to studying the "things most certainly true" that you can find in the writings of Martin Luther and in churches that emphasize them.  I would start by an on-line search under "Martin Luther".  May I suggest the value of a study partner with whom you can have serious discussions about the things being studied, which you may find through such churches.  There are in fact things that are not all in vain, unlike the things tested by Solomon.  Studying them can only be extremely profitable, for this world is vain, but Holy Writ declares that the world in its present form passes away, and there will be a new one that is not in vain. of course, inasmuch as you might possibly also have a medical issue, you may require some medical support, possibly in the form of medication, so I would certainly urge you to have an examination by a physician.  I hope you will follow this advice and find a new life.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Do words and phrases give us qualia?
« Reply #20 on: 06/10/2015 08:45:51 »
To what extent might depression itself be a vanity? Faced with a present threat to life and limb, whether acute (charging elephant)  or chronic (elephants eat my crops), does anyone think about how he should feel, or do we just get on with fixing the problem?   

Perhaps, having the luxury of time and resources to reflect on our moods, makes us construct internal problems in order to stimulate the adrenal system.

And to what extent was depression diagnosed before antidepressants were marketed? The similarity with asthma is noticeable. Mental health diagnoses come and go: just compare any two editions of DSM, and note the number of cases on which each diagnosis is based - some would be regarded as decidedly flimsy in any other branch of science. 

There's no doubt that some people have real problems, but I suspect that for many people the decision of where they sit on a continuous, multidimensional spectrum of mental heath is not an objective one.

You might get more sympathy from a surgeon who had broken a leg or two, but would you get better treatment? If you think the world is going to hell in a handbasket and I agree, would we change each other's opinion? (OK, it is, but let's not dwell on the subject).     
« Last Edit: 06/10/2015 09:08:37 by alancalverd »
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: I need an answer to my philosophy
« Reply #21 on: 07/10/2015 19:59:58 »
The original few paragraphs of this topic was about how when depressed one is not able to feel the same things as one can when they are in a good mood. The word love has more meaning if one is happy, but does not do the same thing when one is depressed. To quote the first few paragraphs;

I struggle with depression and I have this philosophical question that I need an answer for. Actually, it might even be a scientific question.

Now I need to know the answer to this very vital question. I am thinking that there is only one way love, joy, happiness, and inspiration can be experienced. That being, through our reward system (our good moods). The more our reward system is functional and healthy, the more of those things we will have in our lives since our good moods would be greater. But like I said before, there is the difference between words and phrases and our mental states.

So by depressed people focusing on words and phrases alone of love, joy, happiness, and inspiration, they are only fooling themselves into thinking they are in love, joyful, happy, and inspired while depressed when they never were since depression as well as anhedonia are what turn off our reward system (our good moods). Even if they focused on the mental state of their thinking while depressed and told themselves that this is a form of love, joy, happiness, and inspiration, then they would be fooling themselves here as well since they are not in the actual mental state of having those things.


This is actually a good observation and is connected to the way the brain writes data to memory. When the brain writes memory to the cerebral matter, aspects of the limbic system, within the core region of the brain, will attach an emotional valence. This memory binary of thought and feeling, is useful to animals since sensory triggering of similar memory will induce the same feeling, allowing the animal can act with instinct; without thinking. For example, if food item was good, this data will be stored in memory with an attached good feeling. The next time the animal sees a similar item, and this triggers memory, he will feel good, and will eat.

That being said, this schema of memory storage allows the brain to store our memory in layers, based on which feeling is being induced. If we feel hungry, we don't think about math equations or get upset about global warming, but rather the hunger layer will appear with food items; similar valence. This is also useful to the animal since it helps him to focus memory groupings on a layer. If the animal begins to feels hunger and also feels it is time to hunt or gather, this memory valance layer will become active; starts to search.

Depression is anger turned inward, therefore depression will trigger a memory layer with the valence of sad and angry. Love and happiness based memories are stored on another layer. You noticed that this other layer was connected to the valence of the reward system. The words to describe this happy layer run hollow, since the feeling of depression, is keeping the angry/sad layer active. When you trigger the proper memory layer of love and happiness, then the valence of the words appear due to being part of this layer; when originally programmed by culture.

Because the memory is a combination of feeling and thought, we can begin with a thought and induce a feeling or we can begin with a feeling to induce a thought. Try this experiment. Think about being hungry or wait until hungry and see what thought appears in your mind. Or go to a bakery and smell the fresh bread and see what you begin to feel. Both paths lead to the same layer. 

In the case of depression, the sad feeling comes first and focuses all your thoughts onto that one sad layer. This makes it hard to feel other things and think outside the box of that layer. You will need to try and think of a good time and allow the imagery to appear until its associated good feeling appears. Depression can be tough, because if this is chemical in nature, there can be a trickle of chemicals that keeps the valance coming back to that one layer, even of you can change it for a short time.

In this is the case, you may need an external induction that is a stubborn as the internal induction; get a puppy. A puppy will build a layer of good feelings. The pup will not give you the option to remain introverted for too long, trying to reinforce the depression layer. Instead he/she will build a new layer based on unconditional love for you as his/her best friend, where those words will have meaning.
« Last Edit: 07/10/2015 20:06:41 by puppypower »
 

Offline Atomic-S

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Re: Do words and phrases give us qualia?
« Reply #22 on: 08/10/2015 06:58:48 »
Thank you for the rather scientific explanation of all this.  A puppy might really be a good idea, although we don't really know much about Ryuzaki's condition, environment, or history; all of which anyone wishing to diagnose the condition accurately would want to look into.  Although the moods will affect what layers of memory are effectively accessed, what remains unclear to me is why specific moods in this case exist to begin with. We all have moods, obviously; and these often have to do with  circumstances we have been experiencing recently, or might be affected by the time of day, lack of sleep, drugs, etc.; but in some people they may  on strongly without any clear external cause. If that is the case, it suggests a neurological problem, and such a person should definitely be seen by a physician.
 

Offline Detective L Ryuzaki

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Re: Do words and phrases give us qualia?
« Reply #23 on: 08/10/2015 23:24:42 »
Now I think we all agree here that love, joy, happiness, and inspiration are mental states created by the chemicals in our brains.  But when a depressed person has those chemicals shut down, then some depressed people (especially those who have it severe) cannot experience those things.  So now the question comes in as to how they can find good meaning in their lives despite their depression.  Some people have to live with treatment resistant depression that never gets better most or even their entire lives.  So it is vital that they find good meaning in their lives.  Otherwise, they will become suicidal and end their lives. 

But here's the thing.  Isn't having good meaning in your life the very definition of having love, joy, happiness, and inspiration (your good moods)?  To me, someone who is finding good meaning in his/her life and is pursuing his/her goals/dreams and helping others out in the community is a person who is experiencing joy, love, happiness, and inspiration.  Otherwise, I just don't see how a person would have the optimistic attitude of having good meaning in his/her life if he/she did not have any love, joy, happiness, or inspiration at all.  To me, that would just be thinking and telling yourself nothing more than the words and phrases of good meaning, but not actually having any good meaning in your life.

« Last Edit: 08/10/2015 23:30:48 by Detective L Ryuzaki »
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: Do words and phrases give us qualia?
« Reply #24 on: 10/10/2015 14:55:12 »
Again, it comes back to how memory is created. Feelings are attached to thoughts when our memory is written to the cerebral. This places various memories, with similar valence, on specific layers. Layers can be multi-dimensional. For example, if I feel hungry, the types of food that might appear in my imagination, connected to the hunger layer, is not always the same. These memories can change, by being connected to the time of day (breakfast or lunch) the day of the week (Monday or Friday) seasonal (summer or winter) and even based on holiday. Hunger on New Years will trigger a different area of the layer than hunger on the first day of summer. There is a lot on this layer, with time and space connections being used as secondary tags that give the layer volume.

Depression has its own layer based on its unique emotional tone, with this layer also spread out over time such as morning and night, winter and summer. Because the depression layers has its own unique emotional tone, you can't pull love and meaning memories into the depression layer, beyond an intellectual exercise, unless you can make the brain add the wrong emotional tag to those memories; depressed/love. This is not natural and will not work in the long term.

You need to get away from the depression memory layer, and move to a layer where there are better emotions for a happy life. The problem with some drugs is these may shut off the depression layer, but often one becomes numb to others emotions. The depression can stop but still there is no meaning due to now strong layer. This is why I suggested an external source of demand on your attention, that can generated fun and delight for a secondary layer to appear through an external induction.

A few years back, I wanted to get back into shape, but I did not have the discipline to exercise on a regular basis. This was not due to depression. However the same basic layer dynamics were at work. I was stuck on a lazy layer of relaxation and holiday, such that the motivating emotion needed to be in shape ran hollow to m. I could reason at the intellectual level the need for exercise, but there was no feeling behind the thought that could drive me into that reality. There was a disconnect between the words.

I bought a Doberman male puppy who was from a European work dog line. I did not fully understand what a work dog meant. I thought it was all about looks and being larger. What doberman work dog meant was an extremely high drive dog with aggression issues, than needed to be molded into a job.  I could not be lazy, even if I wanted to, because his endless drive and activity would push and challenge me. He pushed me, like a trainer, over the hump into a new layer.

As he got older, he got bigger, faster, smarter and even more scary and would challenge me for pack order. Some days I would need to have a weapon to feel on par. He enjoyed playing fighting with me. He wanted me to stay in the moment, in full control as the alpha of the pack. If I got lazy and/or wanted to regress backwards, he would think he needed to be alpha, and my boss. That was not going to happen. Eventually I become more confident, in good shape, and he became easier to handle.

I would not suggest a protection style work dog, but rather a breed of dog who is sweet and who likes being with you, who can help you to cycle into a new layer. Golden Retrievers are sweet highly intelligent dogs with good energy and a happy disposition.
 

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Re: Do words and phrases give us qualia?
« Reply #24 on: 10/10/2015 14:55:12 »

 

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