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### Author Topic: Does Newton's 3rd Law, and logic account for Genesis?  (Read 1933 times)

#### JMBT

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##### Does Newton's 3rd Law, and logic account for Genesis?
« on: 13/10/2015 04:07:42 »
Newton’s Third Law
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

“The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs.” (from physicsclassroom dot com)

Spacetime's Outwards Expansion
The two interacting objects are Spacetime and the absence of Spacetime.
“in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects.”

An outwards force onto Spacetime (Dark Energy) is expanding Spacetime (or ST) out into the 3 spatial dimensions.
Newton’s Third Law necessitates an inwards force onto the absence of Spacetime. (This will be referred to as Anti-Spacetime, or A-ST)

“Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs.”
The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object.

An Inwards Force onto A-ST
This will be our starting point.
Using what we know of the Universe and the resulting laws of physics, coupled with logic and reason, the result of this inwards force on the absence of Spacetime is as follows.

The whole of this inwards force onto A-ST would exist instantly as it is outside of Spacetime, and therefore outside of time.
The entirety of the corresponding force, an outwards force onto ST would also exist instantly, simultaneous with the inwards force onto A-ST.
“Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs.”

Every percentage of the whole of this Outwards force onto ST exists in a separate, newly expanded Space.
The volume of Space that the Outwards force occupies differs according to what percentage of the Outwards force is observed. Every percentage (infinitely many) of the Outwards force, whether 1% or 94.000010090465% exists in a separate, newly created Space.

As every percentage of the whole of this Outwards force onto ST exists in a separate Space, then immediately following its creation, the percentage of the Outwards force occupying each Space would react with its bordering Space’s percentage of Outwards force as an inwards force.

This interaction of every part of the whole of the Outwards force with each other part of the whole of the Outwards force balances itself and halts the expansion of Spacetime.
First and last percentage of the whole would be balanced only if this were a higher dimensional Space. (Think hypersphere.)

“in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects.”
“The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object.”

In this scenario,

The forces are the different parts of the same whole of the Outwards force onto ST.
The interacting objects are the separate Spaces that the different percentages of the Outwards force occupy.

Genesis 1:1
Now what exists at every percentage (infinitely many) of the whole of the Outwards force is a Space halted in its expansion.

Confined within these Spaces is the percentage of the outwards force in which the Space exists.

This is an energy confined to a Space halted in its expansion.
This will be referred to as Matter.

Now what exists is Matter in a higher dimension of Space.
“In the beginning God created heaven and earth.”

At this point, all forces exist in balance.
If an Inwards force onto the Matter existing at every percentage of the whole of the Outwards force was applied, the Matter would be pushed Inwards into where there is no Space to be pushed.
(An Inwards force onto Anti-Spacetime.)

As previously concluded, this necessitates its opposite force, an Outwards force onto Spacetime.

Dividing the Waters
Therefore, the Matter existing at every percentage of the whole of the Outwards force is expanded outwards into a new Space, separate from each other in this new spatial dimension, but parallel with each other in the higher spatial dimension.
(Big Bang)
In this scenario, our Universe has its origin at one of the percentages of the whole of the original Outwards force.  The Matter was created first, and then expanded into new Spacetime at the creation of our Universe.
(Parallel Universes)

As the Outwards force onto Spacetime expands Spacetime, the corresponding Inwards force increases, and vice versa.
An accelerating expansion of Spacetime.
(Dark Energy)

The Matter created at the other percentages of the whole of the original Outwards force, then expanded into new and parallel Universes, would affect our Universe as Dark Matter.

“God saw all he had made, and indeed it was very good.”

« Last Edit: 17/10/2015 14:53:52 by JMBT »

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #1 on: 13/10/2015 08:31:19 »
Newton's laws, like all laws of physics, are summaries of observations within the observable universe. There is no reason to believe that they could describe anything else, including the formation of the observable universe.

#### PmbPhy

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #2 on: 13/10/2015 10:40:20 »
Quote from: JMBT
Newton’s Third Law
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
That law doesn't always hold. Especially in relativity. For it to always hold the forces must be contact forces.

#### JMBT

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #3 on: 13/10/2015 14:14:39 »
Right. The assumption I make here is that Newton's 3rd Law extends beyond the observable universe.  This could be considered a contact force; the contact occurring between the two objects of Spacetime and Anti-Spacetime.

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #4 on: 13/10/2015 18:08:06 »
Bad assumption. None of the known laws of physics can have applied before the known universe came into being, because then it would have been the known universe and thus observable and extant.

#### JMBT

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #5 on: 13/10/2015 19:34:37 »
This law could apply outside of the observable universe. Simply because it applies within the observable universe does not mean that we could observe it's full application outside of the observable universe. We can observe its partial application if, as this scenario suggest, Spacetime is one of the objects involved; this partial application being the accelerating expansion of the universe.
« Last Edit: 17/10/2015 20:54:16 by JMBT »

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #6 on: 13/10/2015 22:38:19 »
Please yourself. And where did God come from?

#### JMBT

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #7 on: 14/10/2015 00:20:27 »
God did not "come from" anywhere. God is Being Itself. Apparently I have made two assumptions. I assumed that it was not a requirement to believe in God to evaluate, with an open mind, a theory that concludes with parallels to the Bible creation story. You seem to have proven me wrong on that assumption.

We know Spacetime is being effected by an accelerating outwards force.  Spacetime is in contact with whatever is outside of Spacetime. We can observe Spacetime's accelerating expansion and entertain the notion that Newton's third law is in action. I already know the assumption I have made. I am looking for useful critique on the logical advancement in the theory.

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #8 on: 15/10/2015 00:51:47 »
The universe contains stuff, which we observe behaves in certain ways, called physical laws.

Now consider that there may have been a time when the stuff did not exist. There being no stuff to behave, there were no observables that could be set down as physical laws. The laws are a summary of the existence and behaviour of stuff: they are descriptive, not prescriptive, which is why it is no big deal if classical mechanics doesn't describe what goes on inside an atom or a black hole, or at very high relative speeds.

So if the laws of physics applied before stuff, to what did they apply? You will have to postulate protostuff which, having the same physical properties as stuff, must therefore be stuff.

Thus the postulate that the laws of physics applied before the creation of the universe is inconsistent with the notion of a point of creation.

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#### JMBT

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #9 on: 15/10/2015 01:35:46 »
Spacetime may very well be an object with properties.  I realize now that it is nonsense to say that "Anti-Spacetime" could be an object, as it is not by definition.

God as the Trinity; God the Father(Lover), God the Son(Beloved), and the Holy Spirit which proceeds from the Father and the Son. The Trinity requires the object of God the Father's love, namely God the Son. It is by the power (force) of the Holy Spirit that God the Father creates all things through God the Son (the object).

"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made."

Therefore, replace an Inwards force onto "Anti-Spacetime" with an Inwards force onto the object that is God the Son.

Genesis 1:27
"God created mankind in his image;

in the image of God he created them;

male and female* he created them."

Just as a man enters into his wife, and out from his wife life is created, so God creates all things through Jesus.

Yes, I understand this is no longer science, but philosophy.

Now, if God the Son can be considered an object and if Spacetime may be considered an object, is not the remainder of the theory plausible?

Thanks

« Last Edit: 17/10/2015 21:03:37 by JMBT »

#### MolonLabe

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #10 on: 15/10/2015 07:59:44 »
Just as a man enters into his wife, and out from his wife life is created, so God creates all things through Jesus.

That does not produce a particularly nice visual image of God and Jesus to be honest. Is it a quotation from somewhere?

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #11 on: 15/10/2015 08:34:25 »
It's good to see the King James bible still being quoted - truly a work of artistic genius compared with the limpwristed prose of "modern" versions.

Alas, reliance on the spiritual and supernatural is not an explanation of anything - it's  cop-out. And the notion that God creates all things through Jesus is obviously nonsense because an awful lot of things were created before Jesus.

Time for a strong coffee, JMBT, and remember to engage brain before opening mouth. Making absurd statements is bad enough, but quoting them from elsewhere can seriously damage your credibility.

#### MolonLabe

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #12 on: 15/10/2015 08:49:00 »
It's good to see the King James bible still being quoted - truly a work of artistic genius compared with the limpwristed prose of "modern" versions.

OK - I've searched and not found it. Can you give chapter and verse?

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #13 on: 15/10/2015 09:39:36 »
Science tries to present processes in a neutral way to make it understandable by everyone whatever their religious beliefs.

An analogy. I can believe and accept without question that a carpenter has made a beautiful table and I can admire it without asking how it was made.
I can dig deeper and discover how he made it. But books on woodwork and timber technology describe processes without mentioning the creator, "a cut is made with a saw" "the tree is split ...". These descriptions are generic.

For this reason I find statements like those below to be unhelpful in discussing science processes:

Therefore, replace an Inwards force onto "Anti-Spacetime" with an Inwards force onto God the Son.

Now, if God the Son can be considered an object and if Spacetime may be considered an object, is the remainder of the theory plausible?

Just a final thought. In space no one can hear you scream, so no sound, so no Big Bang.
Big flash? Let there be light?

#### JMBT

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #14 on: 15/10/2015 16:47:08 »
MolonLabe, that is not a quote as far as I know. I was simply trying to use an analogy to more expressly connect "Through him all things were made." with the proposed theory. I should have clarified that.

alancalverd, the idea of the Trinity is that it must exist through itself. In the Gospel of John it is written multiple times that "God is love." For love to exist, it must have the Lover (Father), the Beloved (Son), and the relationship between the two (Holy Spirit). In this sense, there must be an object of said love, namely God the Son. It is through this object that all things are made.
And the notion that God creates all things through Jesus is obviously nonsense because an awful lot of things were created before Jesus.

The teaching is that Jesus "For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man." I proposed heaven as a higher dimension of Space, thus outside of time. In this way, he existed before the creation of time, but was born into time when he was born into humanity.

Colin2B,
Just a final thought. In space no one can hear you scream, so no sound, so no Big Bang.
Big flash? Let there be light?

Genesis 1:3 "Then God said: Let there be light, and there was light."

Light is created before the separation of "the waters" in the book of Genesis, which in the theory I propose as the expansion of the matter at every percentage of the whole of the Outwards force (higher spatial dimension / heaven) into new Space. I propose that our Universe has its origin at one of the percentages of the whole of the original Outwards force.

So, if light was created before the Big Bang, it might help explain the curious properties of light.

#### MolonLabe

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #15 on: 15/10/2015 18:31:15 »
MolonLabe, that is not a quote as far as I know. I was simply trying to use an analogy to more expressly connect "Through him all things were made." with the proposed theory. I should have clarified that.

I think that there is considerably more in your post that you need to clarify, to be honest. Tell me: why should we believe everything written down in ancient manuscripts? I studied quite a few of them, and the religious ones are totally unsubstantiated works of fantasy. Try reading the Orphic ones. Why should we take those manuscripts seriously which you happen to select? There are plenty others.

#### JMBT

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #16 on: 15/10/2015 18:57:40 »
I think that there is considerably more in your post that you need to clarify, to be honest. Tell me: why should we believe everything written down in ancient manuscripts? I studied quite a few of them, and the religious ones are totally unsubstantiated works of fantasy. Try reading the Orphic ones. Why should we take those manuscripts seriously which you happen to select? There are plenty others.

I am not asking you to believe everything written down in the Bible.  I am proposing this scenario;

If there is an object that exists through itself (as proposed in the role of the Son in the relationship of the Trinity), what would result from an Inwards force onto said object?

I am simply pointing out the fact that the results seem to correspond to an interpretation of the Bible's creation story.

#### MolonLabe

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #17 on: 15/10/2015 19:21:39 »
If there is an object that exists through itself (as proposed in the role of the Son in the relationship of the Trinity), what would result from an Inwards force onto said object?

Sorry, but try as I may, this question makes absolutely no sense to me.

#### JMBT

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #18 on: 15/10/2015 19:56:20 »
I will try to explain it using Colin2B's helpful tip,

Science tries to present processes in a neutral way to make it understandable by everyone whatever their religious beliefs.

Imagine an object, or
stuff
that exists before the creation of Space and time. Now, if an Inwards force onto this object was applied, what would result?

The Inwards force onto this object, according to Newton's 3rd Law, necessitates its equal and opposite force to react with.  Thus, through this object, another object must exist onto which an Outwards force can be applied. And so on.

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #19 on: 15/10/2015 23:24:03 »
Applied by what? And if space and time don't exist, applied from where? Indeed as force has dimensons of mass, space and time, you can't have a force in the absence of  any of those dimensons.

#### JMBT

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #20 on: 16/10/2015 16:21:16 »
Applied by what? And if space and time don't exist, applied from where? Indeed as force has dimensons of mass, space and time, you can't have a force in the absence of  any of those dimensons.

Here is where the truth of the Trinity reveals itself, and where physics can help to understand the relationship between the 3 persons of the Trinity within the context of the theory.

For love to exist, it must have the Lover (Father), the Beloved (Son), and the relationship between the two (Holy Spirit). In this sense, there must be an object of said love, namely God the Son. It is through this object that all things are made.

And if space and time don't exist, applied from where? God the Father. Applied by what? The Holy Spirit.

Through God the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit, ("the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son"), God the Father creates all things.

Within the Trinity you have an object that must exist, and a power (force) that is the interaction between the object and what is not the object.

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #21 on: 16/10/2015 18:10:00 »
What truth? What trinity? Are you suggesting that your johnny-come-lately amalgamation of judaic and mithraic mysticism is somehow more attuned to the reality of the universe than its predecessors or successors? Didn't Thor or Zeus or Zoroaster have someting to do with it? Or are you infringing the copyright of theHindu Creation Myth?

Quote
In Hindu philosophy, the existence of the universe is governed by the Trimurti of Brahma (the Creator), Vishnu (the Sustainer) and Shiva (the Destroyer).

That, at least, is consistent with the laws of physics.

#### JMBT

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #22 on: 16/10/2015 21:25:30 »
"God is not revealed to "be" love in any other religion in the world other than Christianity because in order for there to be love, there must be a beloved."

I am giving a scenario which one can analyze hypothetically. If the Christian Trinity exists, then how might it exist, and then create, in terms of physical reality?

As shown, the Trinity may be concluded to represent an object and a force between that object and whatever is not that object.

Taking this scenario and following it to its logical conclusion not only parallels with the Genesis creation story, but also potentially explains much of what we can observe in the Universe.

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #23 on: 16/10/2015 23:53:14 »
Why apply logic when the intial premise is meaningless, without observational foundation, and apparently a misquotation from an older and more logical faith?

#### JMBT

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #24 on: 17/10/2015 01:54:54 »
The observational foundation is that some force is expanding the universe at an accelerating rate. How is a faith that suggests governors of the universe, without giving reason for their existence, more logical than the Trinity which reason suggests exists through itself due to its nature?

Thanks for the discussion alancalverd. However, you seem to be unable to consider this scenario hypothetically and thereby unable to acknowledge the possible explanations it may offer to various mysteries within our universe; dark matter, the accelerating expansion of Spacetime à la dark energy, light, etc.

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##### Re: Newton's 3rd Law + Logic = Genesis?
« Reply #24 on: 17/10/2015 01:54:54 »

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