# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: How do we know we do not do everything upside down?  (Read 1544 times)

#### Thebox

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##### How do we know we do not do everything upside down?
« on: 13/10/2015 14:06:09 »
What says that north is north and we roll around a curvature falling into the sun, what says we are not hanging off the sun rolling around an ''ant hill''.

earth
sun

or

sun
earth

an upside down curvature.

Because if I start to spin holding a string with a weight on it, the weight will rotate around my legs dependent to velocity.

« Last Edit: 13/10/2015 14:12:03 by Thebox »

#### evan_au

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##### Re: How do we know we do not do everything upside down?
« Reply #1 on: 15/10/2015 11:35:46 »
Quote from: Thebox
What says that... we roll around a curvature falling into the sun?
Sit a bowling ball on a rubber sheet, and it makes an indentation. Roll a marble past this indentation, and it will be deflected towards the bowling ball, and could (temporarily) take on something that looks like the orbit of a comet or planet around the Sun. If the marble starts off within the indentation, with a low enough velocity, it will remain within the indentation.

This is the image of a "gravitational well", which is sometimes used as a 2D analogy when introducing the concepts of Einstein's Special Relativity.

This imagery only works because we all grew up in a gravitational field, where bowling balls have weight, and will deflect a rubber sheet downwards. Similarly, a marble will tend to accelerate towards lower parts of the rubber sheet, under the influence of Earth's gravity.

In this "gravitational well" model, Earth's immense gravity is attracting the marble towards itself, providing the illusion that the bowling ball has a significant mass which attracts the marble.

Quote
what says we are not hanging off the sun rolling around an ''ant hill''?
Now, if you invert the image, and push a bowling ball up from underneath a rubber sheet, you will form something like an anthill. But if you roll a marble past such a hill, it will not divert towards the bowling ball, but away from it. No matter how slow or how close you roll a marble, it will end up infinitely far from the peak of the hill.

This alternative "anthill" model does not describe gravitational attraction or planetary motion at all, as it suggests that the Sun would repel all planets.

So, while some parts of Earth sometimes seem like an anthill, the Solar System is not (yet) an anthill.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: How do we know we do not do everything upside down?
« Reply #2 on: 15/10/2015 13:49:19 »
Quote from: Thebox
What says that... we roll around a curvature falling into the sun?
Sit a bowling ball on a rubber sheet, and it makes an indentation. Roll a marble past this indentation, and it will be deflected towards the bowling ball, and could (temporarily) take on something that looks like the orbit of a comet or planet around the Sun. If the marble starts off within the indentation, with a low enough velocity, it will remain within the indentation.

This is the image of a "gravitational well", which is sometimes used as a 2D analogy when introducing the concepts of Einstein's Special Relativity.

This imagery only works because we all grew up in a gravitational field, where bowling balls have weight, and will deflect a rubber sheet downwards. Similarly, a marble will tend to accelerate towards lower parts of the rubber sheet, under the influence of Earth's gravity.

In this "gravitational well" model, Earth's immense gravity is attracting the marble towards itself, providing the illusion that the bowling ball has a significant mass which attracts the marble.

Quote
what says we are not hanging off the sun rolling around an ''ant hill''?
Now, if you invert the image, and push a bowling ball up from underneath a rubber sheet, you will form something like an anthill. But if you roll a marble past such a hill, it will not divert towards the bowling ball, but away from it. No matter how slow or how close you roll a marble, it will end up infinitely far from the peak of the hill.

This alternative "anthill" model does not describe gravitational attraction or planetary motion at all, as it suggests that the Sun would repel all planets.

So, while some parts of Earth sometimes seem like an anthill, the Solar System is not (yet) an anthill.

I understand very well the curvature of space and Einsteins mind, Invert the image, the ant hill is not really there like the curvature of space, plastic sheets of are earthly nature.

Take a marble and attach it to a string, (gravity) , and rotate the string at a velocity, the marble will rotate around your legs below your head (sun).

Science could well have the Universe upside down.

Correct me if my physics is wrong in this diagram, speed denotes height.

I CANT DISTINGUISH THE DIFFERENCE IN MY SUN WORMHOLE.

« Last Edit: 15/10/2015 16:12:47 by Thebox »

#### evan_au

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##### Re: How do we know we do not do everything upside down?
« Reply #3 on: 15/10/2015 21:51:40 »
Quote from: Thebox
Take a marble and attach it to a string, (gravity) , and rotate the string at a velocity, the marble will rotate around your legs below your head (sun).
This experiment could produce circular and something-slightly-like-eliptical orbits. But these orbits are constrained by the fixed length of the string, and do not reflect the wide variation in distances that occur in a comet orbit, for example.

Replace the string by a length of elastic, and you will have a slightly more realistic model, allowing for some variation in distance. What you really want is some elastic that gets looser the longer it stretches, and then gets stronger as it gets shorter again - but this is the opposite of the behavior of most elastic.

In the end, this image suffers from the same basic flaw as the rubber sheet model - you are using the Earth's intense gravitational field to make it look like your knees have a strong gravity which is attracting the marble. And it is only a 2D model, not a 3D model.

In science museums, you sometimes see a funnel with a "launch ramp" for coin donations. The geometry of this funnel slopes very steeply towards the center (a mathematician would say that it has a vertical asymptote). This is much steeper than you would get with a bowling ball on a  rubber sheet, and a very different energy-distance relationship than you would get with a string or a length of elastic.

This shape produces quite good "coin orbits" that last several seconds. It is this relationship of potential energy vs radius which reflects Newton's inverse square law of Gravity, that actually allows the stability of the Solar System.

So I am wondering:
• Why should you draw the diagram with a cone, instead of a funnel?
• Could this diagram be confused with the concept of "light cones"?
• Why should a pair of cones become a wormhole in a gravitational field as "weak" as the Sun's (it's not a black hole, for example)
• And what does a "wormhole" mean, in this context?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: How do we know we do not do everything upside down?
« Reply #4 on: 15/10/2015 23:36:55 »

So I am wondering:
• Why should you draw the diagram with a cone, instead of a funnel?

Because all ''spherical'' type objects in rotation/spinning have these dynamics.

• Could this diagram be confused with the concept of "light cones"?

no. its the images that came in to my head when I did the physics.

• Why should a pair of cones become a wormhole in a gravitational field as "weak" as the Sun's (it's not a black hole, for example)

C.o.m, the tips/points of the cones are at the c.o.m, only the north and south , the vertical asymptotes have a ''centripetal'' force, the rest of the volume of the sphere is under ''centrifugal'' force,  the electrons flow is a curvature directional to the north or south,

• And what does a "wormhole" mean, in this context?
disks/layers
[/list]

and I tried an electro-elastic connection before and everyone thought I was mad.

P.s I wasnt try to do a model , I asked a question.

And as soon as a particle starts to spin, it creates its own wormhole by its own mechanism.

« Last Edit: 16/10/2015 04:11:28 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: How do we know we do not do everything upside down?
« Reply #5 on: 16/10/2015 12:49:46 »
I do not understand why this question has been moved to new theories when it is a question that still as not been answered .  I take it the answer which again I have had to draw my own conclusions by the question not being directly answered is that we do not know if we have things upside down , it could be either way up.

#### GoC

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##### Re: How do we know we do not do everything upside down?
« Reply #6 on: 16/10/2015 13:19:47 »
If we consider the photon it would act like an ant hole (energy). Mass on the other hand is a dilation to a lower energy potential for the spherical 3d representation. So the energy photon moves out and around mass as deflected while mass entropy causes attraction to a lower potential. Energy is the ant hill while mass is the bowling ball.

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##### Re: How do we know we do not do everything upside down?
« Reply #6 on: 16/10/2015 13:19:47 »