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### Author Topic: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave  (Read 1919 times)

#### liquidspacetime

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##### Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« on: 16/10/2015 05:03:47 »
Wave-particle duality is a moving particle and it's associated wave in the aether.

"While the founding fathers agonized over the question 'particle' or 'wave', de Broglie in 1925 proposed the obvious answer 'particle' and 'wave'. Is it not clear from the smallness of the scintillation on the screen that we have to do with a particle? And is it not clear, from the diffraction and interference patterns, that the motion of the particle is directed by a wave? De Broglie showed in detail how the motion of a particle, passing through just one of two holes in screen, could be influenced by waves propagating through both holes. And so influenced that the particle does not go where the waves cancel out, but is attracted to where they cooperate. This idea seems to me so natural and simple, to resolve the wave-particle dilemma in such a clear and ordinary way, that it is a great mystery to me that it was so generally ignored." - John Bell

In the following two articles the aether is what waves in a double slit experiment. In the first article the aether has mass.

'From the Newton's laws to motions of the fluid and superfluid vacuum: vortex tubes, rings, and others'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1403.3900

"This medium, called also the aether, has mass and is populated by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it" ...

... and displace it.

'EPR program: a local interpretation of QM'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1412.5612

"Wave particle duality is described as the compound system of point particle plus accompanying wave (in the ćther)."

In the following articles Louis de Broglie describes wave-particle duality as a moving particle and it's associated wave in a hidden subquantic medium.

'Interpretation of quantum mechanics by the double solution theory - Louis de BROGLIE'
http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-classiques/aflb124p001.pdf

“When in 1923-1924 I had my first ideas about Wave Mechanics I was looking for a truly concrete physical image, valid for all particles, of the wave and particle coexistence discovered by Albert Einstein in his "Theory of light quanta". I had no doubt whatsoever about the physical reality of waves and particles.”

“any particle, even isolated, has to be imagined as in continuous “energetic contact” with a hidden medium”

The hidden medium of de Broglie wave mechanics is the aether.

"For me, the particle, precisely located in space at every instant, forms on the v wave a small region of high energy concentration, which may be likened in a first approximation, to a moving singularity."

A particle may be likened in a first approximation to a moving singularity which has an associated aether displacement wave.

"the particle is defined as a very small region of the wave"

The particle occupies a very small region of the associated aether wave.

Q. Why is the particle always detected traveling through a single slit in a double slit experiment?
A. The particle always travels through a single slit. It is the associated wave in the aether which passes through both.

The wave of wave-particle duality is a wave in the aether.

In a double slit experiment the particle travels a well defined path which takes it through one slit. The associated wave in the aether passes through both. As the wave exits the slits it creates wave interference. As the particle exits a single slit the direction it travels is altered by the wave interference. This is the wave guiding the particle. Detecting the particle strongly exiting a single slit destroys the cohesion between the particle and its associated wave in the aether, the particle continues on the trajectory it was traveling and does not form an interference pattern.

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #1 on: 16/10/2015 08:45:22 »
The entire concept of w-p "duality" is outdated nonsense. The world behaves as it does, and we have two ways of describing it mathematically. That doesn't mean that the phenomenon changes, only that our description of it is incomplete.

Here's an everyday example. Is it fog or is it cloud? The answer depends only on your point of view - as you walk up the mountain, the description changes from cloud to fog, but the phenomenon is unchanged.

Adding aether violates Occam's Razor and is experimentally shown to be false.

#### GoC

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #2 on: 16/10/2015 13:48:32 »
There were limitations to the MMX in proving an Aether false. One type of Aether was proven very unlikely if the Aether interfered with light. If on the other hand the Aether was light the MMX no longer applies to that test. We need to be careful not to expand subjective opinions past the limits of an experiment and consider them facts.

When the choices are between magic and mechanics Occam's Razor should not be an appropriate explanation for magic.

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #3 on: 16/10/2015 14:31:26 »
de Broglie was working in an era when aether was still a fashionable axiom. Fortunately his conclusions, at least those with some experimental justification, do not require the existence of any unknown medium.

#### liquidspacetime

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #4 on: 16/10/2015 15:18:41 »
There were limitations to the MMX in proving an Aether false. One type of Aether was proven very unlikely if the Aether interfered with light. If on the other hand the Aether was light the MMX no longer applies to that test. We need to be careful not to expand subjective opinions past the limits of an experiment and consider them facts.

When the choices are between magic and mechanics Occam's Razor should not be an appropriate explanation for magic.

"The word 'ether' has extremely negative connotations in theoretical physics because of its past association with opposition to relativity. This is unfortunate because, stripped of these connotations, it rather nicely captures the way most physicists actually think about the vacuum. . . . Relativity actually says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of matter pervading the universe, only that any such matter must have relativistic symmetry. [..] It turns out that such matter exists. About the time relativity was becoming accepted, studies of radioactivity began showing that the empty vacuum of space had spectroscopic structure similar to that of ordinary quantum solids and fluids. Subsequent studies with large particle accelerators have now led us to understand that space is more like a piece of window glass than ideal Newtonian emptiness. It is filled with 'stuff' that is normally transparent but can be made visible by hitting it sufficiently hard to knock out a part. The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether. But we do not call it this because it is taboo." - Robert B. Laughlin, Nobel Laureate in Physics, endowed chair in physics, Stanford University

Matter, quantum solids and fluids, a piece of window glass and 'stuff' have mass and so does the aether.

#### liquidspacetime

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #5 on: 16/10/2015 15:19:06 »
de Broglie was working in an era when aether was still a fashionable axiom. Fortunately his conclusions, at least those with some experimental justification, do not require the existence of any unknown medium.

'1st place: Shifting the morals of quantum measurement'
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2011/dec/16/physics-world-reveals-its-top-10-breakthroughs-for-2011

"Using an emerging technique called "weak measurement", the team is the first to track the average paths of single photons passing through a Young's double-slit experiment – something that Steinberg says physicists had been "brainwashed" into thinking is impossible."

'Quantum mechanics rule 'bent' in classic experiment'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13626587

'For his part, Professor Steinberg believes that the result reduces a limitation not on quantum physics but on physicists themselves. "I feel like we're starting to pull back a veil on what nature really is," he said. "The trouble with quantum mechanics is that while we've learned to calculate the outcomes of all sorts of experiments, we've lost much of our ability to describe what is really happening in any natural language. I think that this has really hampered our ability to make progress, to come up with new ideas and see intuitively how new systems ought to behave."'

'New 'Double Slit' Experiment Skirts Uncertainty Principle'
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=new-double-slit-experiment-skirts-uncertainty-principle

"Intriguingly, the trajectories closely match those predicted by an unconventional interpretation of quantum mechanics known as pilot-wave theory, in which each particle has a well-defined trajectory that takes it through one slit while the associated wave passes through both slits."

A moving particle has an associated aether displacement wave. In a double slit experiment the particle travels through a single slit. It is the associated wave which passes through both. As the wave exits the slits it creates wave interference. As the particle exits a single slit the direction it travels is altered by the wave interference. This is the wave guiding the particle. Strongly detecting the particle causes a loss of cohesion between the particle and its associated wave, the particle continues on the trajectory it was traveling and it does not form an interference pattern.

What waves in a double slit experiment is the aether.

#### liquidspacetime

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #6 on: 16/10/2015 15:33:01 »
Quote from: alancalverd
The entire concept of w-p "duality" is outdated nonsense. The world behaves as it does, and we have two ways of describing it mathematically. That doesn't mean that the phenomenon changes, only that our description of it is incomplete.

Here's an everyday example. Is it fog or is it cloud? The answer depends only on your point of view - as you walk up the mountain, the description changes from cloud to fog, but the phenomenon is unchanged.

Adding aether violates Occam's Razor and is experimentally shown to be false.

NON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION by LOUIS DE BROGLIE

“Since 1954, when this passage was written, I have come to support wholeheartedly an hypothesis proposed by Bohm and Vigier. According to this hypothesis, the random perturbations to which the particle would be constantly subjected, and which would have the probability of presence in terms of [the wave-function wave], arise from the interaction of the particle with a “subquantic medium” which escapes our observation and is entirely chaotic, and which is everywhere present in what we call “empty space”.”

The “subquantic medium” is the aether.

‘Fluid mechanics suggests alternative to quantum orthodoxy’
http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2014/fluid-systems-quantum-mechanics-0912

“The fluidic pilot-wave system is also chaotic. It’s impossible to measure a bouncing droplet’s position accurately enough to predict its trajectory very far into the future. But in a recent series of papers, Bush, MIT professor of applied mathematics Ruben Rosales, and graduate students Anand Oza and Dan Harris applied their pilot-wave theory to show how chaotic pilot-wave dynamics leads to the quantumlike statistics observed in their experiments.”

A “fluidic pilot-wave system” is the aether.

‘When Fluid Dynamics Mimic Quantum Mechanics’
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130729111934.htm

“If you have a system that is deterministic and is what we call in the business ‘chaotic,’ or sensitive to initial conditions, sensitive to perturbations, then it can behave probabilistically,” Milewski continues. “Experiments like this weren’t available to the giants of quantum mechanics. They also didn’t know anything about chaos. Suppose these guys — who were puzzled by why the world behaves in this strange probabilistic way — actually had access to experiments like this and had the knowledge of chaos, would they have come up with an equivalent, deterministic theory of quantum mechanics, which is not the current one? That’s what I find exciting from the quantum perspective.”

What waves in a double slit experiment is the aether.

#### GoC

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #7 on: 16/10/2015 15:38:05 »
With a energy ether the particle is unnecessary for energy transfer. Why complicate your understanding with an unnecessary addition of a particle? An electron wave representation of the electron traveling at c not the particle itself. A wave on a structure does not invalidate Relativity. A propagation wave on a structure is a virtual photon using no mass of the atom. Each position is subjective: Ether, no Ether. But how is the speed of light measured the same in every frame if something did not control the conditions measured in each frame?

#### liquidspacetime

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #8 on: 16/10/2015 15:48:42 »
With a energy ether the particle is unnecessary for energy transfer. Why complicate your understanding with an unnecessary addition of a particle? An electron wave representation of the electron traveling at c not the particle itself. A wave on a structure does not invalidate Relativity. A propagation wave on a structure is a virtual photon using no mass of the atom. Each position is subjective: Ether, no Ether. But how is the speed of light measured the same in every frame if something did not control the conditions measured in each frame?

You complicate wave-particle duality when you think the particle is the wave.

Q. Why is the particle always detected traveling through a single slit in a double slit experiment?
A. The particle always travels through a single slit. It is the associated wave in the aether which passes through both.

#### GoC

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #9 on: 16/10/2015 16:19:33 »
You complicate wave-particle duality when you think the particle is the wave.
The particle in wave associated propagation through space is the complication. Particles can not go the speed of light and yet the photon is described as a particle. That is incoherent. A propagation wave on particles of (liquid space, energy space, spacetime or dark energy) an ether is all that is needed for the speed of light and not a particle that violates relativity.

While polarization can rectify the ether into two images from two slits wave mechanics without the interference of polarization in the form of a detector produces the interference.

How would you distinguish between a propagation wave on particles and a moving particle?

#### liquidspacetime

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #10 on: 16/10/2015 16:25:16 »
You complicate wave-particle duality when you think the particle is the wave.
The particle in wave associated propagation through space is the complication. Particles can not go the speed of light and yet the photon is described as a particle. That is incoherent. A propagation wave on particles of (liquid space, energy space, spacetime or dark energy) an ether is all that is needed for the speed of light and not a particle that violates relativity.

"For me, the particle, precisely located in space at every instant, forms on the v wave a small region of high energy concentration, which may be likened in a first approximation, to a moving singularity." - Louis de Broglie

A photon may be likened in a first approximation, to a moving singularity which has an associated wave in the aether.

Quote
While polarization can rectify the ether into two images from two slits wave mechanics without the interference of polarization in the form of a detector produces the interference.

How would you distinguish between a propagation wave on particles and a moving particle?

"the particle is defined as a very small region of the wave" - Louis de Broglie

#### GoC

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #11 on: 16/10/2015 20:05:21 »
I need to ask. How would you distinguish between a particle and a wave on particles? His claim is a virtual particle. A wave on particles is the very definition of virtual with energy transfer.

#### liquidspacetime

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #12 on: 17/10/2015 01:08:41 »
I need to ask. How would you distinguish between a particle and a wave on particles? His claim is a virtual particle. A wave on particles is the very definition of virtual with energy transfer.

de Broglie is not discussing a virtual particle. He is discussing a physical particle and a physical wave.

#### GoC

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #13 on: 17/10/2015 13:09:34 »
I know. But he was not taking about a particle in terms of an Ether. Either the Ether is the light wave of Ether particles or the Ether interferes with light propagation. Since the MMX suggested the latter as unlikely our subjective creation of the Ether would be outside of the box and subject to different interpretations by a new reality. Gravity, Magnetism and all things EM would be a reaction to mass rather than created by mass.

#### liquidspacetime

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #14 on: 17/10/2015 13:57:09 »
I know. But he was not taking about a particle in terms of an Ether. Either the Ether is the light wave of Ether particles or the Ether interferes with light propagation. Since the MMX suggested the latter as unlikely our subjective creation of the Ether would be outside of the box and subject to different interpretations by a new reality. Gravity, Magnetism and all things EM would be a reaction to mass rather than created by mass.

The Michelson-Morley experiment looked for an absolutely stationary space the Earth moves through. The aether is not an absolutely stationary space. The aether is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it.

The space unoccupied by particles of matter has mass.

I call this mass the aether.

Particles of matter move through and displace the aether.

'The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided'
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3802

"the emerging picture of the dark matter halo of the Milky Way is dominantly lopsided in nature."

The Milky Way's halo is not a clump of dark matter traveling along with the Milky Way. The Milky Way's halo is lopsided due to the matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the aether, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water.

The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the aether.

The Milky Way moves through and curves spacetime.

The Milky Way's halo is curved spacetime.

The state of displacement of the aether is curved spacetime.

The state of displacement of the aether is gravity.

#### GoC

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #15 on: 21/10/2015 12:56:10 »
I know. But he was not taking about a particle in terms of an Ether. Either the Ether is the light wave of Ether particles or the Ether interferes with light propagation. Since the MMX suggested the latter as unlikely our subjective creation of the Ether would be outside of the box and subject to different interpretations by a new reality. Gravity, Magnetism and all things EM would be a reaction to mass rather than created by mass.

The Michelson-Morley experiment looked for an absolutely stationary space the Earth moves through. The aether is not an absolutely stationary space. The aether is displaced by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it.

The space unoccupied by particles of matter has mass.

I call this mass the aether.

Particles of matter move through and displace the aether.

'The Milky Way's dark matter halo appears to be lopsided'
http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.3802

"the emerging picture of the dark matter halo of the Milky Way is dominantly lopsided in nature."

The Milky Way's halo is not a clump of dark matter traveling along with the Milky Way. The Milky Way's halo is lopsided due to the matter in the Milky Way moving through and displacing the aether, analogous to a submarine moving through and displacing the water.

The Milky Way's halo is the state of displacement of the aether.

The Milky Way moves through and curves spacetime.

The Milky Way's halo is curved spacetime.

The state of displacement of the aether is curved spacetime.

The state of displacement of the aether is gravity.

While I can agree with the possibility of an Ether you are trying to marry the standard accepted physics with an incoherent position of resistance. Ether the EM is unobstructed by nothing or the obstruction causes entropy. The only other possibility is the Ether is constant energy spin to create the constant speed and maintain that speed as constant. While I find it unlikely that having nothing to impede a particle would also give that particle unwavering speed in the universe, we have to chose one as our basis. Its unlikely you can have it both ways. They would be two different operating systems.

#### liquidspacetime

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #16 on: 21/10/2015 14:36:48 »
While I can agree with the possibility of an Ether you are trying to marry the standard accepted physics with an incoherent position of resistance. Ether the EM is unobstructed by nothing or the obstruction causes entropy. The only other possibility is the Ether is constant energy spin to create the constant speed and maintain that speed as constant. While I find it unlikely that having nothing to impede a particle would also give that particle unwavering speed in the universe, we have to chose one as our basis. Its unlikely you can have it both ways. They would be two different operating systems.

The aether is, or behaves similar to, a supersolid, which is described in the following article as the 'fluidic' nature of space itself. The article describes a 'back reaction' associated with the 'fluidic' nature of space itself. This is the displaced aether 'displacing back'.

'An Extended Dynamical Equation of Motion, Phase Dependency and Inertial Backreaction'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1208.3458

"We hypothesize that space itself resists such surges according to a kind of induction law (related to inertia); additionally, we provide further evidence of the “fluidic” nature of space itself. This "back-reaction" is quantified by the tendency of angular momentum flux threading across a surface."

The following article describes the aether as that which produces resistance to acceleration and is responsible for the increase in mass of an object with velocity and describes the "space-time ideal fluid approach from general relativity."

'Fluidic Electrodynamics: On parallels between electromagnetic and fluidic inertia'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1202.4611

"It is shown that the force exerted on a particle by an ideal fluid produces two effects: i) resistance to acceleration and, ii) an increase of mass with velocity. ... The interaction between the particle and the entrained space flow gives rise to the observed properties of inertia and the relativistic increase of mass. ... Accordingly, in this framework the non resistance of a particle in uniform motion through an ideal fluid (D’Alembert’s paradox) corresponds to Newton’s first law. The law of inertia suggests that the physical vacuum can be modeled as an ideal fluid, agreeing with the space-time ideal fluid approach from general relativity."

#### GoC

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #17 on: 22/10/2015 14:30:11 »
The point I am trying to make is between an Ether and no Ether there is a different understanding for mechanism. For instance a particle and a wave are unnecessary with an Ether. A wave on particles. EM wavelengths using the same particle with different waves maintaining a constant speed? Wouldn't a more likely scenario be different propagation waves on Ether particles with the Ether particles having spin energy of c? The spin energy would maintain the integrity of a wave with constant speed. Otherwise a particle would meet with resistance. Without that addition the no Ether scenario seems most likely.

#### liquidspacetime

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #18 on: 22/10/2015 15:25:13 »
The point I am trying to make is between an Ether and no Ether there is a different understanding for mechanism. For instance a particle and a wave are unnecessary with an Ether. A wave on particles. EM wavelengths using the same particle with different waves maintaining a constant speed? Wouldn't a more likely scenario be different propagation waves on Ether particles with the Ether particles having spin energy of c? The spin energy would maintain the integrity of a wave with constant speed. Otherwise a particle would meet with resistance. Without that addition the no Ether scenario seems most likely.

The wave of wave-particle duality is an aether displacement wave. Wave-particle duality is a moving particle and its associated wave in the aether.

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##### Re: Wave-particle duality is a particle AND a wave
« Reply #18 on: 22/10/2015 15:25:13 »