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Author Topic: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?  (Read 7211 times)

Offline puppypower

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #25 on: 25/10/2015 12:46:53 »
As a note: In chemistry, entropy changes do not not occur in isolation, but rather are connected to enthalpy (internal energy of the matter) via what is called, Gibbs free energy G, where G = H (enthalpy) - TS (temperature times entropy).

With chemical matter, G can only decrease, spontaneously, therefore H and S have to give and take to  make that happen. This restricts the possible changes that can occur with any entropy increase. The dice become loaded so only particular state can appear. For example, H2O in air does not randomize into parts, because the internal energy in the bonds or H, is too strong. All it can do is vibrate since this amount of H change is possible with the S at those conditions. 

With computer information there is no internal energy capacitance H, that restricts loss to predictable states, because H equals 0. The H value of life and neural memory can be plus or minus to load the dice in different ways. This is part of life.

One trick for computer memory, besides high energy memory is a mechanism that can add an H factor so loss becomes funneled to useful states.
« Last Edit: 25/10/2015 12:48:34 by puppypower »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #26 on: 25/10/2015 20:25:13 »
Quote from: Puppypower
when chemical entropy changes near neurons and synapses new states of matter will appear that reflect this value.
In humans, neurons in the brain operate pretty much at 37C (if it diverges by more than a few degrees, you die).

When a nerve impulse propagates through a neuron, the temperature remains at 37C (because the brain has an effective liquid-cooling system).

No new states of matter appear because the temperature does not approach 0C (where ice could appear) or 100C (where steam could appear) or the air pressure on Mars (where steam could appear). The neuron operates in a liquid water environment.

The only change of state is the transient depolarization/repolarization change which propagates through the cell, plus possibly some more permanent adjustment in the synaptic linkage to adjacent nerves.
 
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #27 on: 25/10/2015 20:52:58 »
No. Evolution is about what the cell did next, not how it came into existence in the first place.
 
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Offline puppypower

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #28 on: 27/10/2015 19:52:35 »
Quote from: Puppypower
when chemical entropy changes near neurons and synapses new states of matter will appear that reflect this value.
In humans, neurons in the brain operate pretty much at 37C (if it diverges by more than a few degrees, you die).

When a nerve impulse propagates through a neuron, the temperature remains at 37C (because the brain has an effective liquid-cooling system).

No new states of matter appear because the temperature does not approach 0C (where ice could appear) or 100C (where steam could appear) or the air pressure on Mars (where steam could appear). The neuron operates in a liquid water environment.

The only change of state is the transient depolarization/repolarization change which propagates through the cell, plus possibly some more permanent adjustment in the synaptic linkage to adjacent nerves.

What I had in mind, when I speak of states, would be more like what neurotransmitters do to neurons.These can make the neuron membranes more or less permeable to cations. Some will cause the membrane to allow more cationic permeability; higher entropy state membrane. Others do the opposite and maintain the membrane in a state of lower entropy; hard for cations to spontaneously increase entropy.

In multicellular differentiation, all the cells will have the exact same DNA, but the output expression of the DNA will be unique for each cell type. These are states of the DNA. These define informational capacitance.

When stem cells change into other cell states, there is information loss in terms of the original stem cells. But since entropy is a state variable, the higher entropy in information loss; stem cell, is reflected in new cell states.



 
« Last Edit: 27/10/2015 19:54:22 by puppypower »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #29 on: 28/10/2015 09:09:56 »
the output expression of the DNA will be unique for each cell type. These are states of the DNA. These define informational capacitance.

Computer programs also have states; they are stored in the RAM and files of the computer. Some extreme programmers even modify the executable code image (but virus scanners take a dim view of this practice).


So how do the states of human DNA and nerve cells differ fundamentally from the states of a computer?
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #30 on: 28/10/2015 12:16:04 »
the output expression of the DNA will be unique for each cell type. These are states of the DNA. These define informational capacitance.

Computer programs also have states; they are stored in the RAM and files of the computer. Some extreme programmers even modify the executable code image (but virus scanners take a dim view of this practice).

So how do the states of human DNA and nerve cells differ fundamentally from the states of a computer?

The main difference is data and logic priority, in computers, is not created by the computer, but rather by the humans who establish that priority for the computer through programming. Where do the humans get this sense of priority? This is based on how the brain does it as an individual and as a social animal. The computer is programmed by humans using a projection of how the human brain does it, so they both appear similar. If you look at how we surf the internet, it is not sequential like a book but rather is more based on how dreams jump around. It has been modeled on the unconscious mind.

Let me go back to computer and brain information. For example, say we had to two pieces of data. The first is E=MC2, which is Einstein's equation for mass and energy. The second is how many times did I chew the third mouthful of food I ate for lunch. In terms of computer data storage, one piece of data is stored no differently from the other. Both are based on binary code with the mouthful of food maybe needing more storage space to define the entire event. If there was information entropy on that thumb drive, either data might be changed in part or whole since there is uniformity in terms of semi-conductor storage material. One binary switch does not different from any other.

In the brain, there is different priority for each data state, based on an emotional valence that is part of the memory. The brain might forget the chewing data and/or might even allow entropy to change how we view this day from the past. The former or E=MC2 will be perpetuated, with little entropy change, because it defines a very stable state. One can add a lot of mental energy trying to add entropy to E=MC2; modify the equation, but it is very sturdy. On the other hand, how many times we chew is not very important, so it will not take much to modify that day into something else; higher entropy information state.

Part of this has to do with the unconscious mind. The higher priority of  E=MC2 is connected to the needs of survival, for both the individual and the social animal. If you try to add entropy to E=MC2 in a discussion forum, social pressure will call you a pseudo-scientist or worse. It will trigger the social priority of the data in others. On the other hand, if you modify your story of the day I chewed the last piece of a half sandwich, nobody cares. Programmers mimic this internal states of priority, so computers act properly.
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #31 on: 28/10/2015 13:29:47 »
Let me add something more fundamental to life and the brain. This is connected to hydrogen bonding which is the basis for the unique physical properties of water and is also important to the properties and structuring of DNA, RNA and protein.

What is unique about a hydrogen bond is this type of bond has both polar (a) and covalent character (b). The covalent state (b) will have lower enthalpy, lower entropy and occupy a larger volume. This is due to covalent bonding orbital needing to position the hydrogen so the wave functions can overlap properly. The polar state (a) will have higher enthalpy, higher entropy but occupy a smaller volume. Polar is more about lowering the distance between charges, As shown below the two states are both stable and are separated by a slight energy barrier. The hydrogen bond is the living state's version of the binary switch. When water expands when it freezes by about 10%, all the water switches to (b). The freezing lowers entropy into the hexagonal crystal state and gives off heat of fusion (lower enthalpy). In the liquid state you can have pockets of both bonding states.



This binary switch is more than just an off-on switch for binary information. This is because the two bonding states of the hydrogen bond also defines difference in physical parameters, such as enthalpy and entropy as well as difference in local volume and pressure. The freezing of water into ice can bulge a container.

In neurons, although cations are in motion, this is also reflected in changes in the hydrogen bonding switches of water, which then impacts organic things through changes in local entropy, entropy and volume. Sodium and potassium ions impact water differently, even though both carry a single positive charge. Potassium ions are chaotropic or create chaos in water. While sodium ions are kosmotropic and create order in water. Each cation can flip the binary switches in a different way with this change in the local water rippling information through the cell as water expands or contracts, while altering local entropy and enthalpy. The cell can integrate so easily because of this binary within water; information with leverage.

The cell water is a very crowded place. It is like standing near the stage of a popular concert, trying to move. One is elbow to elbow. To get to the rest room you can either try to push your way through the tight crowd or wait for a seam to open up and follow in the wake. The propagation of volume changes via the switch can create seams.

Enzyme trains, where enzymes flex between states, to attach, modify and release product to the new step, make use of the water flipping back and forth to make room, sequentially, for them to flip between states. This flipping of the water also alters the local enthalpy and entropy, adding to the enzymatic effect.
 

Offline rosewhite

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #32 on: 28/10/2015 15:00:27 »
Taking science as modifying natural matter by applying energy and observing the results the first scientist was probably Eve when she first cooked Adam something on a fire?
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #33 on: 28/10/2015 17:55:43 »
Taking science as modifying natural matter by applying energy and observing the results the first scientist was probably Eve when she first cooked Adam something on a fire?

There is science and then there is engineering. With engineering, I can build a fire and even figure out ways to contain and scale this up, without fully knowing the nature of fire. An engineer is a contriver who can contrive even when the science is limited. If someone built an intelligent computer, even by accident, science would come in later to figure out how it works.

The ancients believed that fire came from the gods. This is not science, as we know it. But at the same time, even with this assumption, they could engineer ways to make and contain fire, so  they could use fire to forge tools.

The engineer came first, with he/she around even before civilization. The first scientist came later, as people began to question how and why.

Eve was more like an engineer, who learned how to cook food, even before the development of the food sciences. To engineer good food for Adam, it was enough for Eve know eggs, flour, milk, sugar and oil could make cakes. The gods did the food chemistry.

A beaver, who is nature's engineer, can build dams that can alter the environment. This is done unconsciously; he does not need science. Science is less about action and more about thinking. Even today, the scientist will often need engineers and skilled craftsmen to make the science come to life. Man's path toward science, began with skilled craftsmen, then engineers and then scientists, with science needing the most self awareness; secondary.

The philosophy of science attempts to filter out all subjectivity, which require a certain level of self awareness. With crafts and engineering the value is less bout the truth as it is about the utility.

This reminds me of a story I was told years back. There was this old guy who did electroplating. He was not educated,but his results were always the best. He said his secret was the chewing tobacco he would spit into the vat. This claim is not based by science, but since his work was the best, that was good enough for all his clients. He instinctively and empirically knew who to make it work without needing formal science.
« Last Edit: 28/10/2015 18:06:26 by puppypower »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #34 on: 29/10/2015 17:47:19 »
A beaver, who is nature's engineer, can build dams that can alter the environment. This is done unconsciously;

Please justify that statement by reference to the known thought processes and EEG patterns of a beaver.  Or retract it as pointless guesswork.
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #35 on: 29/10/2015 19:43:56 »
A beaver, who is nature's engineer, can build dams that can alter the environment. This is done unconsciously;

Please justify that statement by reference to the known thought processes and EEG patterns of a beaver.  Or retract it as pointless guesswork.

What part needs proof or retraction; beavers are nature's engineer, beavers can change the environment by creating dams, or that they don't have a conscious mind in the sense of humans but act instinctively/unconsciously.

Here is an article from the humane society that discusses a non kill way to deal with beavers,  who cause damming and flooding. The beavers instinct to build is triggered by running water. If they feel or hear running water, they will build.

If you try to tear open their dam, once the beaver feel the water move and/or hear the water flowing faster, they will target and repair the breech. Often people have to shoot them to make it stop.

The trick someone came up with, so the beavers can co-exist, was to install a pipe into the dam to allow some water to pass, to prevent too much upstream pooling. They use filters on the pipe which lower the sound and prevents a permanent sealing of the pipe. The beaver's instinct is sort of tricked so they stop acting on the breech.

I could not get the hyperlink aid to work, so I have to paste it as inactive.

http://www.humanesociety.org/news/news/2012/04/beaver_deceiver.html
« Last Edit: 29/10/2015 19:46:26 by puppypower »
 

Offline AndroidNeox

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #36 on: 31/10/2015 21:54:41 »
Considering that pre-humans, e.g. Neanderthals, had stone tools and fire, I would say that "science" preceded humanity. The capacity to experiment, learn from experimentation, create and refine tools, etc. isn't only human. Apes, monkeys, birds, and cephalopods all do it. Dolphins use sponges and maybe other tools.
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #37 on: 31/10/2015 23:07:04 »
Considering that pre-humans, e.g. Neanderthals, had stone tools and fire, I would say that "science" preceded humanity. The capacity to experiment, learn from experimentation, create and refine tools, etc. isn't only human. Apes, monkeys, birds, and cephalopods all do it. Dolphins use sponges and maybe other tools.

When a hawk swoops down to catch a prey, there is a complicated series of event with all types of science going on, from the stress and strain of materials, aerodynamics, metabolism, nerve impulses, etc. In spite of all this science, the bird is not thinking of any of this, even though he is unconsciously learning from his success and failure. He may look like an adapting genius, but that is all projection from humans, because this is done unconsciously via instinct.

If I was flying a competition glider, I would be consciously aware of the many aspects of science that are at work. I would be looking around and making tweaks in the systems. When invention and tweaks becomes fast paced, then humans have formed an intellectual basis for  anticipating how things work; science. 

If we go 10,000 years and all we have are stone tools and fire, they are copying/fabricating but not inventing. Fabrication came earlier than civilization. The factory worker may fabricate complex parts of machines without ever really knowing what it does or why it needs that shape. The goal of fabrication is to duplicate, not engineer new parameters based on science.

Art is a wildcard when it comes to fabrication and may be mistaken for science and engineering. The artist is designing media based on emotional appeal; move the audience. This is less about function first, as it is about form However, somethings form can enhance function; pretty useful. This may then appears like science and engineering.

The opening chapter of Genesis is the first written or documented example of science. It is a theory of cosmology and evolution. This set of ideas was not based on copying or manipulating a physical thing, It was not your typical fabrication. It took self reflection apart from what you can find on the shelf in nature.
« Last Edit: 31/10/2015 23:10:28 by puppypower »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #38 on: 01/11/2015 03:27:20 »
Quote from: puppypower
The factory worker may fabricate complex parts of machines without ever really knowing what it does or why it needs that shape. The goal of fabrication is to duplicate, not engineer new parameters based on science.
When "fabrication" is used here, it is actually meaning "mass production", where every piece is supposed to be interchangeable with every other piece.

Quote
If we go 10,000 years and all we have are stone tools and fire, they are copying/fabricating but not inventing.
Before mass production, all things were created by craftsmen who created what they could with the materials at hand, with a particular purpose in mind. In a sense, each item they produced was an attempt to improve on what they had made previously.

Quote
If I was flying a competition glider... I would be looking around and making tweaks in the systems.

Most people who fly would have no idea how to improve the system. And those few people who could identify useful improvements would hopefully have the discipline to avoid changing a well-tested design carrying fare-paying members of the public.

So does this mean that most humans are not scientists, or that true scientific discoveries are very rare for most people, even most scientists?
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #39 on: 03/11/2015 08:31:17 »
What part needs proof or retraction; beavers are nature's engineer, beavers can change the environment by creating dams, or that they don't have a conscious mind in the sense of humans but act instinctively/unconsciously.

Merely repeating a statement that is neither obvious nor provable, about a property (consciousness) you haven't defined, isn't a scientific argument.

Quote
the bird is not thinking of any of this, even though he is unconsciously learning from his success and failure. He may look like an adapting genius, but that is all projection from humans, because this is done unconsciously via instinct.
How do you know? What is your definition of consciousness?  It's worth looking at what a sparrowhawk does with its prey: in the case of a pigeon, which is potentially stronger than the hawk, it starts by ripping off the wings, but with smaller birds it goes for the guts. There's a rational decision somewhere along the line.   

Quote
If I was flying a competition glider, I would be consciously aware of the many aspects of science that are at work. I would be looking around and making tweaks in the systems.
Worth studying the flight of buzzards and vultures in thermals. They compete by making all sorts of tweaks. The difference is that they are much better at it than we are, so a few sad people dismiss this advanced, learned skill as "instinct". Flying with a really skilled pilot is quite revealing - the "tweaks" are almost imperceptibly smooth transitions compared with the late, jerky lunges of a beginner. The "secret" is the thousands of hours of practice that turn an analytic process into a predictive reflex, and the failure of humans is that it only takes a bird a few hours to achieve the same result.

I find the history of flight a considerable damnation of human intellect. The paper dart was around for hundreds of years, and anyone can see that soaring birds fly for longer than flapping birds and insects don't have feathers, yet people persisted with feathered ornithopters and low aspect ratio wings for hundreds of years before moving on to simple structures like darts and dragonflies that actually fly. 
« Last Edit: 03/11/2015 08:44:53 by alancalverd »
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #40 on: 03/11/2015 12:14:54 »
I don't have time for the long answer this morning for the difference between animal and human consciousness. The short answer is consider the athlete who is making the impossible shot. This does not occur via will, or else it would occur all the time. Rather it needs the unconscious mind to do the data crunching.

The secondary in humans is conscious and has the will power, While the primary connected to the unconscious has access to the main frame parts of the brain. Birds and beaver don't have the secondary, only a primary. This is not to say they are not conscious, but not in terms of what human call the conscious mind. They can make the impossible shots all day long since this si not neutralized by a secondary. Unconscious or subconscious does not mean below the ego. The nomenclature was designed for the vanity of the ego.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
« Reply #41 on: 03/11/2015 13:59:45 »
I have never seen anyone do anything impossible, nor do I expect to, ever.

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Birds and beaver don't have the secondary, only a primary.
How do you know this? You keep asserting it without proof or even a good reason for wanting it to be true!
 

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Re: When during human evolution did the first scientist appear?
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