# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?  (Read 6154 times)

#### Thebox

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##### Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« on: 31/10/2015 10:03:01 »
9,192,631,770 Hertz (Hz, or cycles per second)=1 second = 0.0288mile per second=46.3491072 meters per second

c=299 792 458 m / s

299 792 458 / 46.3491072=*6468138.7865 faster than time
« Last Edit: 01/11/2015 09:52:51 by chris »

#### puppypower

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##### Re: How can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #1 on: 31/10/2015 12:00:17 »
This is my opinion on the matter.

According to Special Relativity, as velocity reaches the speed of light, space-time contracts to a point instant. At the speed of light reference, time appears to stop in all inertial references and space appears to contract to a point.

If I am not mistaking, Einstein once said (paraphrase) that time is there so everything does not occur at once. At the speed of light, since inertial time has contracted to an instant, everything in the seen universe appears to occur at once, since instant is the smallest time unit. The concept of time breaks down in the sense there is not enough time; only an instant, for anything to occur separately. Since the speed of light is the same in all references and time has stopped in the speed of light reference, the speed of light exceeds time. The means new types of things can happen.

Let me extrapolate these new things, beginning with the analogy of the fabric of space-time. At the speed of light, when the speed of light exceeds time and space (no sense of separate in space or time) the fabric of space-time begins to unravel into separated threads of time and separated threads of space. This is like a hole in blue jean material where white and blue threads will separate.

If we follow a time thread, since this is now detached from any junction with space threads, we can follow this time line, everywhere, simultaneously. If we follow a thread of distance that is not dependent on time; detached from time threads, we can be anywhere in the universe in zero time. Traditionally these states were called omniscience and omnipresence, respectively.

To reform space-time, we need to cross a thread of time with a thread of space. This will cause single space-time unit to appear; point-instant, Since each thread is now limiting the other, time becomes constrained to a point in space, so only the local history is evidence, and space becomes constrained to the point in time so position becomes limited; primordial atom.

The modern fabric of space-time is similar to any modern fabric in that the weave is not solid under the microscope, but has air holes between the fibers of the weave. This is where distinct thread pieces of time and thread pieces of space continue to exist; speed of light is the same in all references.

Particle pairs, for example, can coordinate in ways that appear to exceed the speed of light in terms of information transmission. They work in the gaps and make use of the separated threads pieces of time and space. These gaps between the weave is also why we have a quantum universe.

If you look at our modern universe, we observe a net a conversion of matter to energy. Or inertial (matter) is returning to the speed of light reference (energy). The potential of the universe is moving from the fabric of space-time into the gaps of the fabric where separated threads of time and space appear.

One further consideration is embroidery. This is where you weave extra fibers onto a base fabric to create designs. Once such embroidery is connected to weaving extra time into space-time. This is called acceleration; d/t/t, which is connected to force. This can pucker the fabric of space-time; gravity.

This analysis is different and unique because it works under the assumption C is the ground state of the universe. Space-time an anomaly that lingers at the junctions of the fabric. These junctions are ultimately connected to inertial matter since matter can't move at the speed of light, thereby allowing a persistence in the fabric.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: How can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #2 on: 31/10/2015 15:38:30 »
This is my opinion on the matter.

According to Special Relativity, as velocity reaches the speed of light, space-time contracts to a point instant. At the speed of light reference, time appears to stop in all inertial references and space appears to contract to a point.

If I am not mistaking, Einstein once said (paraphrase) that time is there so everything does not occur at once. At the speed of light, since inertial time has contracted to an instant, everything in the seen universe appears to occur at once, since instant is the smallest time unit. The concept of time breaks down in the sense there is not enough time; only an instant, for anything to occur separately. Since the speed of light is the same in all references and time has stopped in the speed of light reference, the speed of light exceeds time. The means new types of things can happen.

Let me extrapolate these new things, beginning with the analogy of the fabric of space-time. At the speed of light, when the speed of light exceeds time and space (no sense of separate in space or time) the fabric of space-time begins to unravel into separated threads of time and separated threads of space. This is like a hole in blue jean material where white and blue threads will separate.

If we follow a time thread, since this is now detached from any junction with space threads, we can follow this time line, everywhere, simultaneously. If we follow a thread of distance that is not dependent on time; detached from time threads, we can be anywhere in the universe in zero time. Traditionally these states were called omniscience and omnipresence, respectively.

To reform space-time, we need to cross a thread of time with a thread of space. This will cause single space-time unit to appear; point-instant, Since each thread is now limiting the other, time becomes constrained to a point in space, so only the local history is evidence, and space becomes constrained to the point in time so position becomes limited; primordial atom.

The modern fabric of space-time is similar to any modern fabric in that the weave is not solid under the microscope, but has air holes between the fibers of the weave. This is where distinct thread pieces of time and thread pieces of space continue to exist; speed of light is the same in all references.

Particle pairs, for example, can coordinate in ways that appear to exceed the speed of light in terms of information transmission. They work in the gaps and make use of the separated threads pieces of time and space. These gaps between the weave is also why we have a quantum universe.

If you look at our modern universe, we observe a net a conversion of matter to energy. Or inertial (matter) is returning to the speed of light reference (energy). The potential of the universe is moving from the fabric of space-time into the gaps of the fabric where separated threads of time and space appear.

One further consideration is embroidery. This is where you weave extra fibers onto a base fabric to create designs. Once such embroidery is connected to weaving extra time into space-time. This is called acceleration; d/t/t, which is connected to force. This can pucker the fabric of space-time; gravity.

This analysis is different and unique because it works under the assumption C is the ground state of the universe. Space-time an anomaly that lingers at the junctions of the fabric. These junctions are ultimately connected to inertial matter since matter can't move at the speed of light, thereby allowing a persistence in the fabric.

I can not understand what you have just said sorry, also as soon as someone says according to someone else, I consider that is not thinking for yourself, although I may be wrong because I can not understand what you just said.

#### burning

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##### Re: How can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #3 on: 31/10/2015 16:36:10 »
9,192,631,770 Hertz (Hz, or cycles per second)=1 second = 0.0288mile per second=46.3491072 meters per second

c=299 792 458 m / s

299 792 458 / 46.3491072=*6468138.7865 faster than time

You can't equate different units of measure the way you did, so the calculations are not sensible.

Conceptually, it doesn't work either. Time is not something that moves. There is no "speed of time," so the speed of light can neither be faster nor slower than it.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: How can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #4 on: 31/10/2015 16:50:01 »

You can't equate different units of measure the way you did, so the calculations are not sensible.

Conceptually, it doesn't work either. Time is not something that moves. There is no "speed of time," so the speed of light can neither be faster nor slower than it.

Consequently you should of told history this. The calculations are accurate and true, science messed up.

#### Bill S

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##### Re: How can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #5 on: 31/10/2015 19:10:40 »
Thebox, are you saying that anything that travels faster than 103.68 mph is travelling faster than time?

What does  travelling faster than time mean?

#### AndroidNeox

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##### Re: How can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #6 on: 31/10/2015 22:30:09 »
Faster than time?

Maybe this will help...

Imagine spacetime as a 2 dimensional graph (suppressing 2 space dimensions... dealing only with motion back and forth in one direction) with the horizontal axis measuring distance in space and the vertical axis the passage of time. The equal angle between space and time corresponds to the speed of light.

In this model, any event can be assigned to a point: a specific place at a specific time.

The simplest interpretation (the only one that makes sense to me) is that all observers perspectives change location in spacetime at the speed of light. Always.

For a stationary observer their point of view will be coincident with their time axis. They will be "traveling" up their time axis at the maximum rate.

Note: Any observer not under acceleration will have the same perspective.

However for two observers moving relative to each other, their spacetime axes will be rotated. Because the speed of light is the same for all observers, no matter how these axes are shifted, the angle in spacetime corresponding to the speed of light will be the same for all.

By playing with diagrams you can see how rotating the space dimension(s) will cause objects in motion to appear smaller. Likewise, while it's more difficult to  visualize, time for the moving object will be seen to slow.

Oh, forgot to mention that light beams are used to measure distance and time... given two mirrors separated by a known length, the time required to bounce light back and forth between them will be fixed.

It works out that, since the speed of light is a constant, as an object approaches the speed of light, as its space and time axes rotate together toward the light-speed diagonal, for it, time flow approaches zero and its length approaches zero.

I can look for examples but basically, an x,y graph with the stationary observer's time axis vertical (y) and space axis (x) horizontal. Speed of light is any 45 degree line. Suppose another observer is moving at speed v meters/second... that will define a line, the path of the object through spacetime WRT the observer.

Imagine sending light pulses from the observer to the front and back of the moving object. The more the space axis is tipped, the shorter the object will appear. Next, send a series of light pulses from the observer to the object... these pulses will be farther apart from the perspective of the object. If the object sends out light pulses toward the observer, they will intersect the observer's time axis farther apart than from the perspective of the object sending them. In this way you can see how speed contracts objects physically and slows them temporally.

I hope this helps.

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: How can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #7 on: 01/11/2015 08:44:05 »
9,192,631,770 Hertz (Hz, or cycles per second)=1 second = 0.0288mile per second

Utter, meaningless drivel. Why waste your time writing such obvious tosh?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: How can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #8 on: 01/11/2015 10:18:55 »
9,192,631,770 Hertz (Hz, or cycles per second)=1 second = 0.0288mile per second

Utter, meaningless drivel. Why waste your time writing such obvious tosh?

You are wasting your time with frivolous litigation, there is no defence for the error. My explanation is accurate, other people seem to understand it no problem.

The earth clock ticks at 46m a second , the maths does not then work for light, human error
« Last Edit: 01/11/2015 10:49:09 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: How can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #9 on: 01/11/2015 10:19:56 »
Thebox, are you saying that anything that travels faster than 103.68 mph is travelling faster than time?

What does  travelling faster than time mean?

1035 mph so I believe where do you get 103mph from Bill?

And travelling faster than time means that light travels faster than how time was derived and travels.
« Last Edit: 01/11/2015 10:28:56 by Thebox »

#### Bill S

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #10 on: 01/11/2015 14:27:44 »
Quote from: Thebox
1035 mph so I believe where do you get 103mph from Bill?

Just trying to follow your maths; but I guess Alan has pointed out why that might not work.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #11 on: 01/11/2015 14:55:57 »
Quote from: Thebox
1035 mph so I believe where do you get 103mph from Bill?

Just trying to follow your maths; but I guess Alan has pointed out why that might not work.

It is not wrong my maths is accurate unless the calculator on google is broken,

24901ec/86400t(s)=0.288206019mile / s

where (ec) is equator circumference and t(s) is time in seconds

added - my apologies bill I put a zero in to many in a earlier post you would of been correct with 103 mph. Its actually ten times that 1035 mph approx.
« Last Edit: 01/11/2015 15:04:59 by Thebox »

#### chiralSPO

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #12 on: 01/11/2015 15:54:58 »
Box, we've been over this is a previous thread. Earth's rotation has nothing to do with the definition of time. How geocentric that would be!

You are ignoring units again, and leading to some absolutely ludicrous conclusions. Do you really think there is no difference between m/s and s?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #13 on: 01/11/2015 16:13:18 »

. Do you really think there is no difference between m/s and s?

Not the way it was originated no.  It is not me ignoring anything it is you ignoring history and the denotion of time. Time came well before 17th century science began. It was accepted without really questioning the origin of what denoted time.
The origin of time is denoted by relative motion of the earth relative to the suns movement, sticks in the ground and sun dials, hence 24 hrs equals one rotation,

So by defining a second in the origin to be equal to a geometric position shift of a body relative to a body was a fatal mistake that without realisation defined time equal to a distance of the displacement. A displacement caused by rotation and an equivalent to 48m a second of rotation relative to the second body of the sun.

Your only possible argument is if you can define a different way time was denoted?  but I think you will find it is well known that is what we did in history to measure time by using the constant rate of spin of the earth, we then had to swap this when we realised the earth is not a constant rate of spin, we swapped to the caesium clock and defined a second based on the old second.

My topic question stands, it is not theory it is fact, and the maths does not lie like science told me. The speed of light is denoted faster than time, someone got it wrong somewhere.   Can you explain other than this?

#### chiralSPO

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #14 on: 01/11/2015 16:50:56 »
someone got it wrong somewhere.

that someone is you

Time came well before 17th century science began

Time came well before the Earth and Sun existed. So how can "the speed of time" be determined by the Earth? The fact that humanity's earliest measurements of time relied on the motion of stars moons and planets has no bearing on the fundamental nature of time itself.

Also, please note that time cannot have a speed because it is not a thing, and the notion of speed itself is built on the more fundamental concepts of time and space.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #15 on: 01/11/2015 17:20:45 »

Time came well before the Earth and Sun existed. So how can "the speed of time" be determined by the Earth? The fact that humanity's earliest measurements of time relied on the motion of stars moons and planets has no bearing on the fundamental nature of time itself.

and there you go, the argument is not of time itself is it, the topic title says how can the speed of light be faster than time itself, when time is denoted from history by motion. I do not mean in any context to light being faster than real time, I mean you have the speed of light being faster than arbitrary time so it is not me whom is wrong is it, and it is not me who denotes a second based on a distance for arbitrary time.

« Last Edit: 01/11/2015 17:22:26 by Thebox »

#### Bill S

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #16 on: 01/11/2015 20:49:35 »
Quote from: Puppypower
Einstein once said (paraphrase) that time is there so everything does not occur at once. At

Wasn’t that John Wheeler?

Quote
At the speed of light, since inertial time has contracted to an instant, everything in the seen universe appears to occur at once, since instant is the smallest time unit.

Does “an instant” have duration?

Quote
Since the speed of light is the same in all references and time has stopped in the speed of light reference, the speed of light exceeds time.

You do realise you are extending SR beyond its remit?

Quote
The means new types of things can happen.

How can anything happen if time has stopped?

Quote
Let me extrapolate these new things, beginning with the analogy of the fabric of space-time. At the speed of light, when the speed of light exceeds time and space (no sense of separate in space or time) the fabric of space-time begins to unravel into separated threads of time and separated threads of space. This is like a hole in blue jean material where white and blue threads will separate.

Imaginative, but how do you get here from stopping time; and, again, how can these things happen without time?

Quote
Since each thread is now limiting the other, time becomes constrained to a point in space, so only the local history is evidence, and space becomes constrained to the point in time so position becomes limited; primordial atom.

You lost me there.  In fact, I am largely lost beyond this point, so one step at a time, perhaps.

#### puppypower

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #17 on: 01/11/2015 23:10:28 »
Terms like clocks running slower or time slowing down, due to relativity, creates the mental impression of time being something in motion; time can go faster or slower. At the speed of light, time stops, while the speed of light remains the same, in all references. If you stay literal to the language, if time has stopped and the speed of light is still the same, then the speed of light can pass time by.

Before trying to explain the unraveling of the fabric of space-time into separate threads of space and time, there is something that needs to be clarified. Time is not considered a thing. Time is not considered a potential, a form of energy, a type of force, nor does it contain substance, makes waves, or have inertia, etc. We can't save time in a bottle or beaker. Rather time is considered a reference variable and a mental construct to show how things relate in terms of math. That being said, when space-time contracts or expands, nothing tangible is actually changing, since time is not a thing of any substance. When time is changing due to relativity, what changes is in the mental construct in the imagination.

This ambiguity confuses people, since bold assertions of the changes in universal space-time, as the universe expands, is spoken of as a tangible thing, even though space is a void and time is not part of substance. We could substitute space-time for leprechauns riding unicorns as our mental constructs since these are not tangible either. If we did do that, we would need to give this new mental construct, better properties, if the goal was utility.

The reason this ambiguity;  giving a non thing properties like a thing, is because a mental construct is based on a conditioning of the mind val the imagination. Space-time as a thing, that is not a thing, is an affect similar to the fable of the Emperors new clothes.

In that fable, the emperor is naked of tangible clothes made of earth based substances like cloth. What he has on instead are the finest garments made of non tangible things; an abstraction and mental construct. To get along, like in the fable, one has to go along, until one is finally able to acquire the sharpness of mind to see how the sun shimmers off this fine non tangible fabric, fir for a king. When the summer breeze blows, the fabric waves like the rowboat ripples in a calm sea.

People become confused about space-time by the way we/science describes how space-time behaves under different conditions, as though this is tangible fabric made of real thread. The layman assumes science will not treat invisible clothes as real. They assume time and space have to be tangible at some deep level, the layman may not understand.

Naked science wrapped in space-time clothes,  can look stylish, if we all agree to look at this the same way. We only need to be careful about the young pups who have not yet learn to go along with the convention.
« Last Edit: 01/11/2015 23:18:38 by puppypower »

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #18 on: 02/11/2015 01:16:12 »
Time can dilate. This means that the passage of time in one frame of reference can be at a different rate than that in another frame of reference. In which case we can say that the rate of time changes. This has nothing to do with speed which is a function of distance over time. Rates of change and speed are entirely separate. You can have a rate of change of speed which is acceleration. This can be both positive and negative. Unless these simple definitions are grasped you may as well be talking Klingon.

#### evan_au

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #19 on: 02/11/2015 08:26:31 »
Quote from: BillS
Thebox, are you saying that anything that travels faster than (1035) mph is travelling faster than time?

What does  travelling faster than time mean?
So it seems that this question is not about Einstein's relativity, but it's all about the speed of the Terminator: the day/night dividing line (not the time-traveling cyborg).

So with the deduction that the speed of the terminator at the equator is 1035 mph, this means you could get in a rocket, and travel faster than the terminator, and make the Sun "rise" in the west!

This has already been done. But they cheated, because at high latitudes, the terminator moves slower - and at the equinox at the North and South Poles, it does not move at all!

On one occasion, the Concorde supersonic passenger jet picked up passengers after their midnight New Years Eve celebrations in London, and delivered them to New York just in time to do it all again! They did not turn inside out, become frozen, become gods, or even zombies (although they may have felt like the latter the next morning).

In the extreme, a polar explorer could easily do a quick jog around the South Pole in 5 minutes, but its not like they will get any younger, or can change the future or anything.

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#### evan_au

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #20 on: 02/11/2015 08:32:32 »
By the way, every astronaut in Earth orbit travels faster than the Terminator.
Astronauts on the ISS go through a day/night cycle about every 90 minutes.

One day, if we ever have astronauts repairing and refueling satellites in geosynchronous orbit, they will be traveling at roughly the same speed as the terminator.

#### puppypower

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #21 on: 02/11/2015 13:15:53 »
Time can dilate. This means that the passage of time in one frame of reference can be at a different rate than that in another frame of reference. In which case we can say that the rate of time changes. This has nothing to do with speed which is a function of distance over time. Rates of change and speed are entirely separate. You can have a rate of change of speed which is acceleration. This can be both positive and negative. Unless these simple definitions are grasped you may as well be talking Klingon.

You are correct that can time can dilate according to mathematical equations. But if you now try to define, what is time, time is not defined as a thing, substance or potential. Something that lacks substance, can't do anything, except in the imagination.

A good analogy that may be easier to see is to consider the grid that might appear on the windshield of a jet fighter. This grid is projected onto the windshield and does not actually exist in the sky. But it does add another layer, to tangible reality, to help the pilot organize the sky. After using this grid enough, the pilot's mind will begin to forget this grid is separate from the sky. This is when it is most useful and becomes second nature. He will begin to act as though this grid is a part of the sky and he  may even begin to speak of the sky in term of the grid. If the grid flexes, the sky appear to move. If the grid was to shut off, he can become disoriented.

Time is part of a projected grid, we superimpose onto tangible things. This time grid has been used for centuries and is part of our training, beginning as children. In ancient times, Helios used to ride his chariot across the sky; movement of the sun. This was ancient grid.  We can forget this is only a projection onto the screen of the imagination. If time had substance, so we could save time in a bottle, then projection would not be the case. Don't get me wrong, the grid is useful and has lots of utility, but since time is not defined as thing, it has to be a projection.

It is an interesting mental exercise to separate the two layers in your mind away from an unconscious and habitual merger, and then try to do the same things, using only tangible things. One way around this would be to reverse engineer the time grid, but in terms of the tangible things it represents. The pilot shuts off the windshield grid. He is disorientate at first but begins to go old school and look for physical markers that we all agree are tangible.

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #22 on: 03/11/2015 00:42:06 »
So it seems that this question is not about Einstein's relativity, but it's all about the speed of the Terminator: the day/night dividing line (not the time-traveling cyborg).
This is why I didn't respond to this question, as ChiralSPO says this has already been covered in new theories in a topic started by the box.
Not only does he confuse speed of terminator, speed of time and speed of light, he uses the frequency of the cesium clock without understanding that this is a microwave frequency and so travels at the speed of light - hence the calculation he offers is false.
I am somewhat tired of these attempts to introduce new theories into this section by posting a Trojan question. This is blatant troll behaviour.
I say new theory, but to be honest it is so laughable that it could only be posted under 'it can't be true'.

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #23 on: 03/11/2015 08:00:26 »
The meaningless phrase "the speed of time" was first uttered, at least in my hearing, by the  loathsome Mandel, son of Frankenstein, to describe a fatuous display of firenotquiteworks he commissioned at your expense to celebrate the beginning of the the year 2000, along with massive queues of VIPs trying to get from an unfinished railway station to an overpriced dome containing nothing of interest.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #24 on: 03/11/2015 13:26:29 »

Not only does he confuse speed of terminator, speed of time and speed of light, he uses the frequency of the cesium clock without understanding that this is a microwave frequency and so travels at the speed of light - hence the calculation he offers is false.

Again more frivolous litigation and no defence for the blunder, I am not confused in any sense of time or light or anything.  The speed of light has nothing to do with ''beats'' of the Caesium atom . The amount of ''beats'' defining a second measured in accordance to an old second.

My calculation is falsifiable.

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##### Re: Can the speed of light be faster than time itself?
« Reply #24 on: 03/11/2015 13:26:29 »