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Author Topic: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?  (Read 2265 times)

Offline alancalverd

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Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« on: 10/11/2015 09:28:43 »
Consider a visible photon, emitted from a single event. Its energy is about 2 eV.

Now consider a wave spreading out from a point source. The energy density at any point a distance r from the source must be E/4πr2 eV/m2 where E is the original energy of the source event.

Now we detect our photon, a light year away from the star that emitted it. Ignoring a bit of red or blue shift, the detection event releases 2 eV. So if "wave function collapse" has any real meaning, all the energy that was dissipated over an area of 4π (light years)2 has instantaneously and simultaneously condensed on my detector. This means that some energy has travelled 2 light years in no time at all, and arrived in the right place, with no prior warning or loss.

So let's pretend that relativity is wrong and there is no upper limit to the speed at which information can travel. We still have an anomaly because some of the energy travelled only a very small distance, some travelled 2 light years, and yet it all arrived at the same time. How did it know how fast to travel, let alone where to go?   

The simple fact is that "duality" is completely illogical. The world behaves as it does and we have to choose an appropriate model to predict it, but the model is not the reality, any more than you can grow potatoes on a map of Ireland.


 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #1 on: 11/11/2015 03:30:53 »
I hope someone else will want to comment on this. I am not knowledgeable enough to do so. You speak a lot of sense.
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #2 on: 11/11/2015 09:19:24 »
This is an example where a particle explanation seems more "natural".

But there are equally many examples where a wave interpretation seems more natural (at least, to some people).

This debate raged backwards and forwards for centuries.

And now we just accept that light has some characteristics of a particle, and some characteristics of a wave - making it some sort of "wavicle". Duality is a fact of quantum life, I'm afraid!
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #3 on: 11/11/2015 12:28:13 »
Consider a visible photon, emitted from a single event. Its energy is about 2 eV.

Now consider a wave spreading out from a point source. The energy density at any point a distance r from the source must be E/4πr2 eV/m2 where E is the original energy of the source event.

Now we detect our photon, a light year away from the star that emitted it. Ignoring a bit of red or blue shift, the detection event releases 2 eV. So if "wave function collapse" has any real meaning, all the energy that was dissipated over an area of 4π (light years)2 has instantaneously and simultaneously condensed on my detector. This means that some energy has travelled 2 light years in no time at all, and arrived in the right place, with no prior warning or loss.

So let's pretend that relativity is wrong and there is no upper limit to the speed at which information can travel. We still have an anomaly because some of the energy travelled only a very small distance, some travelled 2 light years, and yet it all arrived at the same time. How did it know how fast to travel, let alone where to go?   

The simple fact is that "duality" is completely illogical. The world behaves as it does and we have to choose an appropriate model to predict it, but the model is not the reality, any more than you can grow potatoes on a map of Ireland.
The flaw in this argument is that you assumed that the location of the energy was known before you measured the position of the photon. It's not.
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #4 on: 11/11/2015 14:52:22 »
If we had a boat moving on a lake, it will make a wake. The movement of the boat is constantly generating a wake and leaving behind waves that propagate outward. In the dual slit experiment, the boat can only go through one tunnel, but the spread out waves of the wake, is wide enough to moves through two or more tunnels.

In the case of the boat, the wave and wake only happens because the boat is using energy to move through the water. It is connected to friction between the boat's hull and the water. Fuel is being burnt to generated the work against the friction that makes the wake.

In terms of energy and photons, the photon is moving through the medium of space. There is no loss, to space, even though the waves are being generated by the particle. The energy of the photon will be conserved. How does the particle make constant waves without friction or loss?

In we move the boat, into the vacuum of space, we would only has a particle moving without any wake, since there is no friction to add energy to the medium to make a wave. How does a photon make waves constantly, which spread out, yet not show any loss of potential? One photon can make millions of waves as it travels for years or one wave if it travels for an instant, yet both have the same energy. Look at the boat photo.

One way this would be possible; allow for some friction and loss, to create the wave, but have no net loss, is the loss needs to be supplemented, constantly. In the case of the boat on the lake, it has a fuel tank, with the fuel not directly connected to the water in the lake, yet indirectly involved in the wave making.

Photons all move at the speed of light, regardless of the wavelength. The speed of light is the same in all references. However, the wavelength can change between references. The speed of light is the fuel in the tank, while the wavelength and frequency is connected to friction in the media of space-time. The particle is the boat, which bridges the fuel in the C reference, with the friction in space-time. 



This is easy to explain, if you assume the speed of light is the ground state of the universe. The photon particle is always in the ground state. The wave occurs due to the grounded particle at C interacting with space-time references, all of which are slower than the speed of light. This means space-time contains potential relative to the ground state. The particle in space-time add potential to the particle, which is constantly released, as the particle returns to the ground state at C. The energy difference adds friction for waves in space-time.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #5 on: 11/11/2015 23:54:15 »
The single slit experiment and time separated particle collisions with the screen should answer some important questions. Will interference still happen? If so then you cannot separate the particle from the wave. Either we are missing something obvious or we just accept the fact that the universe works that way and we will never find out why. Endless debate doesn't achieve much apart from self reassurance.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #6 on: 12/11/2015 00:08:03 »


The flaw in this argument is that you assumed that the location of the energy was known before you measured the position of the photon. It's not.
Interesting thought Pete, and might I also ask; Does time dilation have anything to do with this perceived paradox?

Maybe the photon looses none of it's energy because it experiences no passage of time. No passage of time, no energy lost.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2015 03:24:18 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #7 on: 12/11/2015 00:08:39 »
The flaw in this argument is that you assumed that the location of the energy was known before you measured the position of the photon. It's not.
I don't see any assumption in my argument. I'm merely challenging the  idea that a collapsing wavefunction is anything more than an occasionally convenient mathematical model of reality.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #8 on: 12/11/2015 00:16:34 »
Consider a visible photon, emitted from a single event. Its energy is about 2 eV.





While propagating through space the energy will remain at 2eV neutralised until it is detected by your device where there will be an exchange of force to equal 2eVē   but just a guess.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #9 on: 21/11/2015 15:54:36 »
I have bumped this thread to emphasize Alan's point that duality is in fact nonsense.
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #10 on: 21/11/2015 16:23:03 »
There is no duality, it is only your mind that bends.
 

Offline Bill S

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #11 on: 21/11/2015 19:56:28 »
How about: There is no duality, because the photon is neither a wave nor a particle; it appears to us as one or the other because of the different ways in which we observe/interpret it?
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #12 on: 21/11/2015 20:03:51 »
How about: There is no duality, because the photon is neither a wave nor a particle; it appears to us as one or the other because of the different ways in which we observe/interpret it?

This is my thinking as well.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #13 on: 21/11/2015 23:45:46 »
You are, literally, beginning to see the light.
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #14 on: 22/11/2015 04:53:29 »
...and just when I think I've understood light as a wavicle, it behaves like a particave.
 

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Re: Can we put an end to the nonsense of "duality"?
« Reply #14 on: 22/11/2015 04:53:29 »

 

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