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Author Topic: Science and God - Does it mix ?  (Read 48941 times)

Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #100 on: 30/04/2004 01:04:51 »
Nicely said  Justy......but I suppose he/she/it could say with as much passion as you have that he/she/it is just giving he/she/its point of view just like everybody else....I wouldn't take it to heart so much...everyone has their right to their own opinion just like you have, like we all have and can express it accordingly. From an athiests point of view I suppose a lot of the posts on this thread are also offensive, like they are being preached to. I think what God is actually saying that this website is fundamentally about Scientific subjects, excluding deities..........well..that's my 2 cents worth anyway...I'm not saying I agree or disagree just defending 'Gods' right to equally state an opinion.........one more thing....LETS HAVE A POLL.......

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #101 on: 30/04/2004 01:10:35 »
........also with regards to your point about big wonderful jugs.., you most probably wouldn't find porn on a site like this...well...I suppose we could start a thread called Porn and Science does it mix ?....I suppose there is always going to be a strong conflict of interest when two subjects such as science and god are brought up...In some cases one is considered the antithesis of the other .......

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #102 on: 30/04/2004 01:27:38 »
...Justy....mate...hope you don't think I'm being confrontational..I'm not...no no no.....I just felt that the way god has provoked a reaction in you, others could well be as easily provoked by the religious attitudes of others here.....Hey !!..I think I'd make a good arbiter....how ever, I must admit I am an athiest but I'm trying to be objective and just seeing that god is one person giving their subjective point of view.

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #103 on: 30/04/2004 06:10:41 »
its all good neil...  we can still be friends (until we die and I go to hevan and you burn in the firey pits of hell [}:)])  but even then I'll still write
[8D]
(totally joking)

A submarine is NOT a cargo ship!
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #104 on: 30/04/2004 12:01:53 »
Phew !!..Thanks Justy !!..me and my neuroses !!....last thing I wanted to do was upsetmy fly fancier mate the Lord of The Flies !!!..Hey....how come you haven't changed your title yet ?

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Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #105 on: 01/05/2004 07:31:03 »
I put a request in the chat section, but haven't gotten a reply.  isn't that what you're supposed to do?

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Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #106 on: 01/05/2004 11:27:28 »
If you email Chris at chris@thenakedscientist.com that should sort it !!

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

Edit: I put in the naked scientist address as the other one is more personal and the webtrawlers that go through the net would pick it up; and just like me, he start getting junk offering viagra, porn passwords etc... (sorry to gatecrash your post there neil me old buddy!)
« Last Edit: 01/05/2004 11:52:55 by Exodus »
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #107 on: 01/05/2004 12:27:05 »
Thanks Richy....I was actually kinda thinking that I ought to have sought you out and ask first!!!..sorry...but I'm glad my partner in crime was watching over my shoulder.......You Voyeur you !!!

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Offline Exodus

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #108 on: 01/05/2004 15:54:20 »
no probs!
 

Offline Titanscape

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #109 on: 01/05/2004 19:12:18 »
quote:
Originally posted by GOD

I do not recognise your choice of Hydrogen or eternal Alien !!!

To be concise instead of elaborate. One view as to the absolute uncreated origin of the cosmos is a great cloud of Hydrogen, there are others that I lesser well know. {Multiple dimensions, 12-14} And some believe in an uncreated self existing God, which to us is an alien.

and I can see no viable historicity at all. And why should I have to consider that an alien exists in that primordial place above time ?...show me a burning bush !!..show me Noahs Ark !!
It is not done among scholars and academics of the field of history to claim the non historicity of Christ... Moses lived too. For example in some deserted towns they unearthed pork bones and found evidence that shortly after there was no more consumption of pork but lamb instead... You can test the middle easterners for common DNA, ie Abraham's... From the Exodus on the Bible has evidences which are scientific. Ancient Kings' all had historians, it is part of civil life. We can compare Isreal's with Assyria's and Rome's...

Really, our western Justice systems are based on the Bible! It is well examined and scrutinized!!! Solomon is a bit hard to prove. We sure know the temple mount is there. I accept your skepticism tho. I did'nt always believe it.

Don't we usually like to ponder the idea of life elsewhere in exotic places {like other dimensions}...? We know of no simpler dimensions than our four. If there are others than they'd be above time, wouldn't they? Such aliens are the stuff of popular novels, as in Vonnegut's "The Slaughterhouse Five". You are only invited to consider it.


The Bible is a great work of fiction and that is all it is
The Bible is more well known and studied than for you to write that. Like other civilizations Israel kept records and they are used by archeologists among non believers. Israel was often brutally attacked yet survived as a nation!

this site is not for preaching
I did not start any of these threads which are preachy.

The bottom line is that you are so inherently filled with the belief that there has to be a supernatural being behind the creation of the universe that there is no compromise in your thought process whatsoever....why do you have this indelible mindset ?..Just tell us all WHY there has to be a creator..why why why ?
I had a poor upbringing. I remember a natural uplifting turn of events. Yet I could see that as I sinned I became sadder. At 18 thinking I would soon die and wanting to turn away from sins I was convicted, trembled and prayed and diciplined myself to turn.

I then experienced a knowing of a presence before me which I was sure was Jesus. It was as if He passed His hand thru my heart and lifted off a foul burden of ill conscience and sadness. I was forgiven and exuberent. There was an internal witness of God and memorable change. A knowing and a heart and conscience experience.

This was followed by many experiences in which my secret thoughts were revealed and my secret questions were answered spontaneously and on prerecorded broadcasts. A simple example involved a young man desribing an aircraft I had mentally only designed, that was after prayer, to comfort me.  People far apart would talk about the same issues with me and once  two unrelated evangelists quoted one of my prayers and it's modification...

I experienced fear and sin driven off after a prayer for Jesus blood. I was refreshed inwardly by a small drink of living water and two others claimed they could see this water in me.

I saw people manifesting demons and felt the numbing presence of God's Spirit.

As in the Gospel [Gethsamane], I have many times drawn back and fallen to the ground before I AM...,...


Titanscape
« Last Edit: 01/05/2004 19:20:36 by Titanscape »
 

Offline Donnah

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #110 on: 03/05/2004 20:17:25 »
quote:
Originally posted by MayoFlyFarmer

its all good neil...  we can still be friends (until we die and I go to hevan and you burn in the firey pits of hell [}:)])  but even then I'll still write
[8D]
(totally joking)

Justin, you'll have to email Neil.  A letter would burn.  ;-)
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #111 on: 03/05/2004 22:11:58 »
Justy could always right it on an asbestos board !!

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Offline Reconnect

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #112 on: 04/05/2004 00:21:25 »
Modern science and religion are flawed by the same belief in true and false.

These opposites are answers but not solutions, one is not anymore true or false than the other.
Cause and effect is flawed, organic life comes into being under a particular set of conditions.

The bible or other material from the past are attempts to convay understandings that we have had for a long time.
We are losing this connection with understanding by claiming things in actual existance are no longer real.

Does god exist?  Of course!  Your contemplation brings this entity into being!  

If it exists in your mind it is alive in the actual existance of reality.

Those who do not believe in god or science are blind!

















Two rights don't make a left, but three do.
 

Offline MayoFlyFarmer

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #113 on: 04/05/2004 06:13:09 »
wow.... in all my years listening to people debate this subject I never considered that point of view!

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Offline Reconnect

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #114 on: 04/05/2004 13:46:04 »
I believe this is how the great pyramid was built, it shows that the human race was in touch (eccentricly) with nature many thousands of years ago.

newbielink:http://www.thepump.org [nonactive]

We place our modern view on an object and when it doesnt fit we blame the object and not our view.

You can watch the road but not see a car.

You can listen to the road but not hear a car.

You hear with you senses and see with your mind.

Embedded in the eye is the ear, and embedded in the ear is the eye.

Its a 2 way thing, the relationship brings them in to being.



Two rights don't make a left, but three do.
 

Offline neilep

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #115 on: 26/07/2005 21:32:32 »
Just briging this thread up to the top so that all religious stuff can be debated here instead of the 'god poll' thread....cheers everybody.

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #116 on: 27/07/2005 01:59:05 »
Dangerous topic this.
I got involved in another one on another forum few years back.
Tempers and emotions RAN WILD.
Language and threats went too far and I believe some members were even banned from the forum.
Sometimes it can be hard to stay out of some topics, but on this occasion its lessons learnt.



« Last Edit: 27/07/2005 02:01:09 by ukmicky »
 

Offline VAlibrarian

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #117 on: 27/07/2005 02:11:39 »
The evidence is there for evolution- even so that it needs to be considered the status quo.
Does this mean that religionists need to feel defensive? No. It is not possible to prove the nonexistence of God. Faith is supposed to be a good thing- if you believe, more power to you. Just do not insist that I believe, or that my tax money be utilized to enforce the viewpoint of your religious sect. Remember,love thy neighbor and turn your other cheek to thine enemy.
It is absurd in one sense for science and religion to struggle for power. If we were more tolerant and flexible, we would comprehend that there is no inherent contradiction between the two.

chris wiegard
 

Offline Bilbisaur

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #118 on: 27/07/2005 11:33:18 »
Fresh discussions from other places:

This thread has basically become an argument of semantics. What you and others have shown and expressed here are conjectures, based on observations, made by men who are not you. Not one of you can claim you have observed, first-hand, the workings of the living universe. The Bible, is a record of conjectures based on occurences, also observed by men. Scientists observed their surroundings and made ussumptions based on the way they percieved data. You read these links and books and they appealed to your thinking, although you did not witness the mechanics. Men in the Bible observed miracles and percieved the glory of God. I read the Bible and knew it to be the truth, although I have not, thus-far, been blessed to observe a miracle. Take for example the story of Jesus feeding the masses(according to the account the crowd was quite sizable, certainly in the hundreds)with four fish and two loaves of bread. Having no cause to impugn the credability of this incident, having not witnessed it, for the purposes of this example, assume the story is true. Explain to me in a scientific manner, how can this be achieved? Assuming the story is true, it is not scientificly possible. So the question really should be, which record of the origion appeals to you? Who do you trust?

I have to say it is ironic. Terribly contradictory.

He says "based on observations, made by men who are not you.", when he himself said the Bible was "observed by men".

So that person knows what is the truth just because he read the Bible? Just because he read the Bible, it is the truth and evolution is wrong. So now it's a struggle of the first book for babies huh?


Indications are the argument against BOTH sides. I want to see an appropriate reply with absolutely NO indications in it, no second guessing, hard proof. You replied to me with ideas that are not absolute proof, or incredulously strong proof, but just strongly assume an idea. If you reply with "How can you prove god exists with no absolute proof" then the same must apply to you; stop throwing out either, and give the strongest of proof, just proof. This whole thread is "This suggests a god" vs "This suggests the scientific theories", quit suggesting, there are many topics that are proven, in which case, I beleave the actual extent of evolution to be proven (when I say actual extent, as in to the extent that has no second guessing).


Plus he didn't read someone's 24 links to information.

If and when when scientists finally prove the theory of Evolution, God will still be as real to me as the day before they proved it.

This means that Christians can't be swayed. So I can believe in supernatural turtles when Taoism is correct, and they will still be as real to me as the day before Taoism was proved.

Sorry for the sarcastic/angry tone but when you're brought to a Christian blog by your sister but forced to not post anything you can't help but feel angry at that trick.

Please give your comments =)

________________________________________________
The Bible has flaws but is still correct
Evolution has flaws but is still wrong
Any logic or justice in that?
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #119 on: 27/07/2005 12:53:39 »
Strongly religious people do not evolve their ideas, as a rule they want to keep things as they think they are or should be.

Darwin says only adaptation (fitness) can lead to survival. Christianity is in steep decline, and can only hope to prolong its existence by keeping in touch with the education system (by having their 'theories' enforced in the curriculum on an equal footing with evolution theory).

So, on the face of it, it would seem that Darwin has already proved his point (although he was very religious himself), and Christianity is already resorting to 'cheating' (by having their message 'enforced' in schools).

If they are prevented to do so, I predict their natural near-extinction in a few decades only, or if they are allowed to influence the youth any further, somewhat longer, but not more than a century or so.

So no, even if science is partly evolved from the same roots as religion, even more than scientists would like to think, the two in my view are not compatible in their current form.
Pure 'repeat-after-me' religion must go, but the same goes for all repeat-after-me schools of thought.

Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Hector Louis Berlioz
 

Offline David Sparkman

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #120 on: 29/07/2005 03:51:26 »
I'll bite on this rather divisive topic. Like the emergency room guy, I have seen an automobile accident victim (a good friend of mine) come out of shock after a 60 second prayer. The nurse could not get a pulse and reported just "thready" before being asked to leave the room with the doctors. When they returned 60 seconds later, my friend still had 2 broken ribs and a broken femur, but her pulse was stong and steady. Those that know emergency medicine, will know that she was now out of danger.

This is not an explanation or an argument for conversion to my religion (which will remain unnamed). It is just to point out that there is still a lot that we don't know, and we don't understand. And keeping an open mind is very scientific. Most religions are about a pholosiphy of life, a way of living and treating your fellow human beings. Obviously not all religions are equal in this task. But many good people and good scientists belive they have a responsibility to be more than just a materialist. That does not make them bad scientists.

There is also the question of mental and moral stability. I have seen nut cases in churches and disparing people with no spirituality. To me what makes the difference in a man/woman is not what happens to him, but how he deals with the adversity that life deals out. Here some religions have been beneficial. Yesuah ben Joseph offered a few pointers in his teachings: 1) check the fruit of a religion - good trees produce good fruit 2) try it out and see if it works for you, and 3) for those spritually inclined, pray for an answer.

He also didn't believe that his followers would ever be more than seasoning in the world, so religion is not for everyone. But there will be many good and honest people who are not followers of his particular religion. Live with it, and yes, accept the diversity of mankind. And as I read it: "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for their's is the kingdom of heaven", since righteousness is truth, all scientists have a free pass to heaven...

David
 

Offline gary_lankford

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #121 on: 29/07/2005 05:41:48 »
Very good, David!

What is man?  A body…  Arms and hands, legs and feet, head and shoulders, ears, eyes, nose and mouth, a torso, and genitals…  Muscles, liver, kidneys, stomach, heart, brain, cartilage, bone, guts and blood…  A mass of differentiated cells…  Proteins, fats, carbohydrates, water, mineral depositions…  Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, sulfur, calcium, sodium, phosphorus, chlorine…  Atomic particles: protons, neutrons, electrons spinning…  Or clouds…  

Man, more nothing than something, and yet solid to his own touch, understanding his surroundings to the limit of his understanding.  Having “personality,” able to conceive his own origin, believing that he exists in fact, because he holds his own presence as proof, yet he is as improbable as any conception.  The man, so improbable cedes, perhaps, the possibility of forces beyond his understanding, but glibly denies “personality” to the very forces which make him possible; forces that stand self-evident and yet far beyond man's understanding.

What need has He to prove to you that He exists?  It is for you to prove His existence to yourself, by seeking Him.

Mat 7:7 “Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you.


Gary Lankford
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #122 on: 29/07/2005 06:20:56 »
quote:
Originally posted by David Sparkman

I'll bite on this rather divisive topic. Like the emergency room guy, I have seen an automobile accident victim (a good friend of mine) come out of shock after a 60 second prayer. The nurse could not get a pulse and reported just "thready" before being asked to leave the room with the doctors. When they returned 60 seconds later, my friend still had 2 broken ribs and a broken femur, but her pulse was stong and steady. Those that know emergency medicine, will know that she was now out of danger.

This is not an explanation or an argument for conversion to my religion (which will remain unnamed). It is just to point out that there is still a lot that we don't know, and we don't understand. And keeping an open mind is very scientific. Most religions are about a pholosiphy of life, a way of living and treating your fellow human beings. Obviously not all religions are equal in this task. But many good people and good scientists belive they have a responsibility to be more than just a materialist. That does not make them bad scientists.

There is also the question of mental and moral stability. I have seen nut cases in churches and disparing people with no spirituality. To me what makes the difference in a man/woman is not what happens to him, but how he deals with the adversity that life deals out. Here some religions have been beneficial. Yesuah ben Joseph offered a few pointers in his teachings: 1) check the fruit of a religion - good trees produce good fruit 2) try it out and see if it works for you, and 3) for those spritually inclined, pray for an answer.

He also didn't believe that his followers would ever be more than seasoning in the world, so religion is not for everyone. But there will be many good and honest people who are not followers of his particular religion. Live with it, and yes, accept the diversity of mankind. And as I read it: "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for their's is the kingdom of heaven", since righteousness is truth, all scientists have a free pass to heaven...

David



Thank you for answering. I didn't expect people to 'bite' really, since I'm no fisherman. Only hoped for someone to come with arguments of faith instead of religious ones. The difference between faith and religion for me is that the former is purely personal and cannot be abused really, and the latter certainly isn't, and I wonder if it was ever created for anything BUT an instrument of abuse on a far larger scale than the personal. If I remember correctly the root of religare has to do with binding, like pages in a book, similarly to the fasces rods bound together to give us... the symbol that was taken over by Mussolini's fascists. Most Roman-Catholic church paraphernaila and nomenclature is taken straight from the Roman Empire, btw. The 'Pontifex Maximus' or 'Divine' Bridgebuilder - the title of the pope, indicating his succession of Christ in that function on Earth was the title of the highest Roman priest, etc. etc.

So the two are distinct, and the latter is highly suspect in my view, a kind of 'cosa nostra' of middle men between you and God, with similar ties into every part of normal peoples lives, from birth to death, and as unavoidable as taxes.

OK, back to your experience. The human psyche is divided along different strata, and the 'rational', lucid every day side is only one of them. Another can be hypnotised, falls for the placebo effect, and will drop dead in Africa when a juju priest points a wooden stick at them, or begin to sweat when they feel 'guilt', which is a social or cultural emotion, and needs to be cultivated in a person, it does not appear easily by itself. Now that latter emotion is my main gripe with 'religion' since that is exactly what is plays upon, in many different ways.

So faith is important, and personal and should not be twisted into some kind of social instrument of abuse or 'interest group' creating either a powerstructure that leeches wealth and human capabilities without giving anything in return, by playing on people's emotional and existential needs.

So if you have a personal relationship with God, and it's enhanced by sharing it with others, fine by me. Start a powerbroker game or filling in your hidden political agenda by pouring money and pressure on political figures to 'enhance' your worldviews, and you're not a believer anymore, you're just trying to improve your tribe's position in THIS world, not the next.

And start sniping abortion doctors, and you're just an organised terrorist, in my view, fit to be dumped forever in a Private Guantanamo all by yourself.

Not a man of God, since God is all there is. All.

And never just what YOU think, or desire. That's the essential blasphemy and original sin, if you want my opinion. Think you're called to the job?

Walk on water.




 

Offline David Sparkman

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #123 on: 29/07/2005 13:08:39 »
Walking on water is easy, the second time...

David
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #124 on: 29/07/2005 13:37:10 »
Don't forget the holes in your feet from your crucifixion. :)

Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Hector Louis Berlioz
 

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #124 on: 29/07/2005 13:37:10 »

 

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