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Author Topic: Science and God - Does it mix ?  (Read 49110 times)

Offline David Sparkman

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #125 on: 29/07/2005 20:31:20 »
Yea, well the holes came afterwards, but I was thinking about that Chris Columbus trick of standing an egg on end. The second time is always easier than the first time, 'cause you know the "trick" (correct approach to the problem as we engineers like to say).

Miricals arn't magic in my book, they are just an application of the principles and laws of the universe. Magic is just a name given to stuff we don't understand. Try showing a liberal arts guy how you can take a line, rotate and integrate it and get the formula for the area of a circle, rotate the circle though the third demension and get the volume of a sphere. It is wonderful magic for all those who struggled though high school geomerty.

Right now I am just trying to find where I left my anti-grav belt. :)

David
« Last Edit: 29/07/2005 20:32:16 by David Sparkman »
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #126 on: 29/07/2005 20:59:25 »
I'm sorry, I thought you meant at your Second Coming.

I think it was Asimov who said that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, exactly because you indeed do not know how it works - at all. Not a clue.

Careful with anti-grav belts, they don't work in space where you'd be using centrifugal forces to *mimick* gravity, and jumping off a goody height in one of those large stations while jauntily flipping on your belt will be your last conscious act. Won't work. You'd go splot.

So indeed, you'd be hit dead as if by magic. Lack of properly understanding the technology involved.

Understanding how boson density works makes walking on water much easier, of course.
Almost like cheating. :)

[edit dybo]
« Last Edit: 29/07/2005 21:01:30 by chimera »
 

Offline gary_lankford

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #127 on: 29/07/2005 21:14:01 »
Go David!

Kinda like light theory.  It should be obvious that wave theory and particle theory are just models that fairly well explain the behavoir of light under varying conditions, but that light will finally be explained by a single model along lines that no man has yet conceived; probably neither as waves or particles.  The ideas of waves and particles are just models we apply because we are familiar with them from our physical surroundings.  They are metaphors for our observations of light.  

You would think that "scientists" (truth seekers) would be the most open in seeking things that are beyond understanding, instead they are among the most dogmatic and close-minded.  Then they deny that they are religious.  Religion is just a way of life adherred to consistently.  Something we should all try to avoid?
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #128 on: 29/07/2005 21:36:48 »
quote:
Originally posted by gary_lankford

Religion is just a way of life adherred to consistently.



So's being a serial killer.

Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Hector Louis Berlioz
 

Offline gary_lankford

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #129 on: 29/07/2005 22:05:30 »
Exactly my point Chimera.

Religion, everyone has one, but few in their practice stand on truth, and even fewer act on it.

Surely, you see that the religion of serial killers is not to seek truth; in that, they have alot in common with say, inquisitors.
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #130 on: 01/08/2005 06:22:06 »
Funny, although the larger picture is not pretty, quite a few Inquisitors were rather restrained people, and had to keep the eager public from acting it all out on their own - without a trial altogether. You'd also be surprised how many inquisition trials were simply about getting to the money and lands of the victims, or to get them out of the political picture, so not much religion.

My main point is that 'steadfastness' is not a virtue by itself. It's nothing more than a romantic notion of reliability I guess, hiding the fact that without a consistent approach to novelty in your life you are not really living, but trying to force the rest of the world to stick to your idealised version of it, even if it never existed as such.

We all know the real name of the golden heydays of Christian values: the Middle Ages. If you don't agree with this, tell me who *ruled* Europe then with full worldly powers and on all levels of society:

Buddhists?
« Last Edit: 01/08/2005 06:26:14 by chimera »
 

Offline Bilbisaur

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #131 on: 01/08/2005 14:38:49 »
quote:
You would think that "scientists" (truth seekers) would be the most open in seeking things that are beyond understanding, instead they are among the most dogmatic and close-minded. Then they deny that they are religious. Religion is just a way of life adherred to consistently. Something we should all try to avoid?


from what i'd read, Bishop Wilberforce verbally attacked Darwin and his friends during a debate without even considering how evolution worked. We know that you can't morph into supernatural flying turtles holding blankets in one day (unless you're a nutcase:D). So technically the Christian church started it first.

Oh and one thing which I observed is that only Christianity seems to be in the brutal fight with science. I haven't seen Hindus, Taoists, etc coming in o0

quote:
We all know the real name of the golden heydays of Christian values: the Middle Ages. If you don't agree with this, tell me who *ruled* Europe then with full worldly powers and on all levels of society:

Buddhists?


lol :D Reminds me, I once said somewhere that Buddhism was some kind of moral teachings rather than a religion (it doesn't really have a god, unless u count the Taoist version about him in the west o.0) My sis was like "Are you sure? It sounds very selfish to me" Was tempted to reply but she's... her. >=(

ah the thing that got me into evolution was because of my sis, she always preaches and when someone asks her further she just goes "because it's already wrong/right"

________________________________________________
The Bible has flaws but is still correct
Evolution has flaws but is still wrong
Any logic or justice in that?
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #132 on: 01/08/2005 15:28:27 »
quote:
Originally posted by Bilbisaur


lol :D Reminds me, I once said somewhere that Buddhism was some kind of moral teachings rather than a religion (it doesn't really have a god, unless u count the Taoist version about him in the west o.0)


That's largely correct, I think. Buddhism's more a school of philosophy than anything else, which is why I can at least in part subscribe to its ideas. The difference in outlook on whether there is a sole divine being or that god is everywhere (pantheism) is normally found in almost any religion/theology. With hare krishna's you can tell if they're monotheists btw, since those have one bead of hair on the top of their heads - the pantheists are all-shaven.

Oh, in Christianity you USED to have pantheist 'factions' too.

Those, they burned separately.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2005 15:28:48 by chimera »
 

Offline Ultima

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #133 on: 02/08/2005 08:50:56 »
Don't confuse Classical Pantheism with Naturalistic or Scientific Pantheism.. and definately never with Panentheism! :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheist

wOw the world spins?
 

Offline chimera

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #134 on: 02/08/2005 09:31:13 »
Panentheism and Pantheism are like Cantor's sets of infinities in that respect: 'All is the set that contains all other sets" - and immediately someone asks "Does the set include itself"?

I'm always inclined to joke: "Yes, but not on Sundays". :)

Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - Hector Louis Berlioz
 

Offline Razor

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #135 on: 10/08/2005 09:09:24 »
hmmmm......nah!
I dont believe i evolved from some God Damn Flea-Infested Ape!
But that's just my opinion.[:p]

"Please provide the date of your death."
-from an IRS letter

 

Offline Ultima

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #136 on: 10/08/2005 18:42:48 »
No one thinks we evolved from Apes, they are as "highly evolved" as us, they are just different! We evolved from common hominid/primate ancestors which a long time ago split into the various types of primates. Neanderthals were around at the same time as humans.... they almost certainly had language and skills similar to our own; they just weren't cut out for such radical environmental change and were too specialised. I even read one paper that said there was another species of hominid on some remote island when organised human civilisation began! If that is true we should really think better of the animals around us.

The only difference between you and an Ape right now are: less hair, the ability to produce speech and standing up all the time. Apes have language skills it’s just they lack the anatomy to produce any spoken language. They produce less sophisticated tools than us because they haven’t been walking upright like us for as long. Plenty of hominids I can think of with fleas ;) don’t be thinking you are so high an’ mighty, it’s a matter of 2% genetic difference between us and chimpanzees/bonobos. Plus Bonobos have complex social interactions, and are the only other animal known to use sex for pleasure/social bonding like humans. We aren’t so different regardless if you believe in evolution or not. It’s about time people realised they are not separate from the rest of nature!

Looking wider a field Dolphins are even more interesting they clearly have complex language skills; they can even communicate in 3D through sonar. The fact that they can learn a completely different way of communicating when dealing with human scientists is staggering, do you know a single word/concept in dolphin language? They live in large organised social groupings and interact with other species in symbiotic relationships very similar to how humans use other animals!

wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 10/08/2005 18:55:40 by Ultima »
 

Offline Razor

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #137 on: 10/08/2005 18:49:01 »
Do they Really?
lol!:D

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Offline Razor

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #138 on: 10/08/2005 18:51:16 »
I was just thinking about bonobos,dirty bunch they are:)

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Offline Ultima

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #139 on: 10/08/2005 19:03:37 »
Oh great way to go Amerikakakka http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4136690.stm
Without evolution how do you explain new things being created??? We can see the process and it's through genetics not the hand of God???

wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 10/08/2005 20:35:45 by Ultima »
 

Offline Bass

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #140 on: 12/08/2005 05:36:13 »
The Shrub has just trashed several generations of scientific research with one ill-informed remark.

Prediction is difficult, especially the future.  -Niels Bohr
 

Offline Razor

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #141 on: 12/08/2005 10:35:38 »
Hey who you callin' a Shrub you......Swine!

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Offline rutcar

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #142 on: 14/08/2005 21:47:55 »
you cant take religious texts literally as this was not how they were intended to be taken. it is true that these stories are morally rich and and are valuable in that sense, somewhat like the parables. it would be foolish however to believe stories such as adam and eve word for word. as for the whole big bang thing being triggered by god and it not being random, however i put it to you: it had to happen randomly and was destined to, just like an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite amount of time will type the works of sheadsperre

science is religion
 

Offline ScientificAngel

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #143 on: 23/08/2005 09:58:10 »
quote:
Originally posted by pencilhead

HOW?  I know we've heard this over and over again.  Never a dry subject,unless your dry and never change your beliefs.  You change a person daily learn new things hopefully they change and effect you someway or another.  What are you thoughts about EVOLUTION?
8)8)[8D][8D]:D:D:):)[:p][:p][:o)][:I][:I][:I]



Statistically evolution is almost impossible.
Evey gene mutation has to be great but I don't think it can be enough......
If we have to believe that we all discend from a single batterium
then I don't believe in evolution statistically.......
I believe in a great God creation, maybe statistically it would be more correct.
We only need to believe in Jesus Resurrection........
Is it more probable?

I know He is God but scientifically it's very difficoult to show... it........


God can give to us 4 new
earth scientifically from Jupiter...
 

Offline Ultima

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #144 on: 23/08/2005 20:19:12 »
The whole point is that Evolution isn’t statistical! Plus a lot of the ordered complexities of life are emergent from the fundamental properties of the materials we are made of, such as: phospholipids forming a permeable bi-layer when exposed to water. This is an obvious example, but it is likely far more subtle effects are in place that we are not fully aware of.
Mutation is almost always destructive, random and relatively infrequent. Evolution works on the cross-over of genes between Mother/Father to Daughter/Son. If you had a perfect birth with no genes mutating the child would still be a different organism with traits from both parents and new ones that emerge from the fusion of the parents.

How does the resurrection of Jesus Christ explain biodiversity and the rapid specialisation of organisms to new environments? What's more probable, someone came back from the dead (the son of God no less), or with time genetic traits benefit certain organisms in certain environs!

Plus it's more incredible than descending from single celled life. We ultimately descend from self replicating concentrations of biological chemicals. These eventually formed more complex structures when they bumped in to each other. Ultimately forming what you see today. Life is like the rest of the universe but backwards: with time things go from unordered chaos to ordered perfection. On reflection that statement is not entirely true. After the big bang things were messy for a while, but now we have galactic clusters; galaxies bump in to each other and form new galaxies different than ones before... On every scale the same emergence of new from old is apparent!

Because a process is to complex to fully comprehend, doesn't mean that it's origins can't be explained simply.

To Quote Richard Dawkins:
quote:

From "The Blind Watchmaker":

We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully 'designed' to have come into existence by chance. How, then, did they come into existence The answer, Darwin's answer, is by gradual, step-by-step transformations from simple beginnings, from primordial entities sufficiently simple to have come into existence by chance. Each success­ive change in the gradual evolutionary process was simple enough, rela­tive to its predecessor, to have arisen by chance. But the whole sequence of cumulative steps constitutes anything but a chance process, when you consider the complexity of the final end-product relative to the original starting point. The cumulative process is directed by nonrandom survival.



Evolution doesn't go against the concept of God; it just goes against the literal interpretation of creation from the Bible. If more highly religious people took the time to make an informed decision about evolution, there wouldn't be any argument!  

wOw the world spins?
« Last Edit: 23/08/2005 20:36:45 by Ultima »
 

Offline ScientificAngel

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #145 on: 23/08/2005 22:29:32 »
Can a bacterium's dna become a man's dna with the cross-over?
After all the number of genes cannot change with the cross-over.......





God can give to us 4 new
earth scientifically from Jupiter...
 

Offline daveshorts

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #146 on: 24/08/2005 00:19:59 »
Well a bacterium reproduces asexually most of the time so no.

Howver this is where mutations come in - a gene is just identified by a certain code of DNA at the start and end so you just need a mistake in the copying of some junk DNA (that doesn't code for a gene) to this code to create a new gene (they also quite often get copied twice by mistake).

99% of the time these mutations do nothing important and just increase the variety in the gene pool, most of the rest of the time it affects the animal negatively, but just occasionally it helps - these are the animals that survive and go onto breed and make up the next generation.

repeat for a few billion years and you will see some pretty big changes.

quote:
I dont believe i evolved from some God Damn Flea-Infested Ape!

You may not, however if your alternative theroy is that you were created by some sort of deity, it must have been a pretty lazy one as you are 97-99% similar genetically. This would indicate that the deity designed each animal by minor changes to the last. This wouldn't exactly indicate how an omniscient deity would design things, (as they could go directly for more optimised designs) unless they were trying to pretend it was by evolution, or aren't actually omniscient...
 

Offline David Sparkman

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #147 on: 24/08/2005 01:04:13 »
There are some interesting science that most people don't know about that can cause geneic mutation. Obviously radiation can cause damage and changes to DNA. And there have been some nearby supernova's in human history that could have caused a lot of damage.

But a more common form of genetic damage was pointed out by Dr. Linus Pauling back in the 1960's, and earned him a Nobel Peace prize. Radiation high in the atmosphere generates C14 (Carbon 14) a radioactive form of Carbon. Pauling pointed out that nuclear air blasts were also generating large amounts of C14.

The problem with C14 is that Carbon is one of the constituants of DNA. Should a C14 atom decay radioactivly, it changes into Nitrogen. Changing from 4 bonding electrons to 3 bonding electrons, causes the DNA molecule to break. The broken pieces can result in a non-functioning DNA strand, in some mutation, or in a cancerious cell. Most of the time (since it occures about 3 times per second in each of us) the damage is benin. A spontanious cancer is the second most probable, and a sucessful genetic mutation is the rarist.

P.S. Linus convinced the world powers to stop nucelar air tests due to the increased risk of cancer, and that is why he won the peace prize.

David
 

Offline Ultima

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #148 on: 24/08/2005 23:14:10 »
quote:
Can a bacterium's dna become a man's dna with the cross-over?
After all the number of genes cannot change with the cross-over.......


Eukaryotic and Prokaryotic cells are separate evolutions of a similar thing. They are not distinguished by just the genetics but by the things “bumping” into each other as I mentioned before. Eukaryotic cells are likely the result of the accidental and beneficial merging of many early prokaryotic cells over time. Yes given enough time it is possible that a bacterium could evolve into something as complicated as a human. But it would take the accidental amalgamation of more than one bacterium to from more complex structures internally to the cell. As I also mentioned before you get membranes forming as an innate property of the lipids present, if you imagine that membranes plus biological chemical contents is essentially the first and most basic form of life. You start here. Then when the contents of the membrane becomes more than it’s “tensile strength” can withstand it breaks apart and forms two or more copies of it’s self. This is life at its most basic. Then by accident more complicated molecules get added into one of the membranes chemical mixture, this then goes on and is shared between the next “generation”. As time goes by some membranes will be full of very complicated organic compounds that will begin to interact and form other structures. By chance two membranes might collide when splitting and share there contents. This sharing allows a population to be similar enough to interact with each other externally to the “cell” you then start to see intercellular things going on and ultimately multi celled life. It is only a matter of time for this to happen. Granted the very early stages are random and subject to probability, but once you reach a certain level of complexity this no longer holds true. Once you have a genetic structure that “stores” information for reconstructing complex chemicals you have what we would call life and not just a bunch of greasy bubbles floating around.
This is true for computer programs. Everything you see on your computer screen right now is very simple maths happening very fast. Ultimately from the simple stored information that a programmer has inputted the desired behaviour becomes apparent; once the instructions are executed over many cycles. You get artificially intelligent things happening once the code can write and change itself, very much how genes work in life.

This isn’t strictly Darwinian evolution this is more of a complexity theory take on evolution. Stuart Kauffman has written some nice stuff about the subject, which is pretty much what im regurgitating poorly, now. Self-organisation like this is a very useful tool in computing as well, and only now is beginning to be used. I’m thinking of doing something in this field for my dissertation. Investigating the stability of retroviral genes in genomes of other organisms; using A.I. techniques to form an emergently complex computer model.



wOw the world spins?
 

Offline ScientificAngel

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
« Reply #149 on: 25/08/2005 14:05:09 »
I don't know this theory.
But what is your opinion, is your theory more probable
than others?
What's its probability?
I know from a lot of scientists that evolution can(could, my opinion) be infinite casual gene mutations.
When I have studied this evolution theory then I
have considered the Creation at once.








God can give to us 4 new
earth scientifically from Jupiter...
 

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Re: Science and God - Does it mix ?
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