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Author Topic: Can curved spacetime make time go let's say ten times faster?  (Read 6797 times)

Offline MagI

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Hi.

It is said that time can only go slower in gravity fields and if you move faster.

I have heard that when a gravity wave pass earth then the space/time vibrate and time change for an instance.
But a wave is often with a top and a valley.

So what if we could compare time ticks between clocks on different planets.
Will we only detect that time ticks slower for an instance when the gravity wave pass?

Or will we detect that time tick faster than normal time also, as compared to zero gravity time and no movement time?


Regards MagI

« Last Edit: 13/11/2015 10:46:30 by MagI »


 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #1 on: 11/11/2015 20:15:54 »
Quote from: MagI
So what if we could compare time ticks between clocks on different planets.
Yes, you would see a difference between ticks of atomic clocks on two different planets if the planets had a different mass, or if you were at a different distance from the center of mass - perhaps because the planets had a different density, or you were orbiting the planet, for example.

But you don't need to go to a different planet - you can detect the difference in time between the Earth's surface and the GPS satellites in Earth orbit. The GPS satellites contain an atomic clock, and it is intentionally set "wrong" when the satellite is manufactured on Earth, so that it will be "correct" once it is in orbit, moving very quickly above Earth's surface. Of course "correct" is only correct from the viewpoint of someone on Earth's surface.

Quote
Will we only detect that time ticks slower for an instance when the gravity wave pass?
I'm sorry to tell you that we have not yet detected any gravity waves passing.

This effect, predicted by Einstein is very subtle - it amounts to:
Quote from: Wikipedia
changing the 4 kilometer mirror spacing by about 10−18 m, less than one-thousandth the diameter of a proton
Scientists have recently restarted the LIGO detectors with improved sensitivity, and they are hopeful that they might be able to detect gravitational wave events in the next year - but this depends on whether there is some dramatic event within detection range in the next year (like coliding black holes, or an unbalanced spinning pulsar).

So you can easily detect time dilation, even without being able to detect any gravity waves passing the Earth.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity#Direct_detection_of_gravitational_waves
 

Offline MagI

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #2 on: 11/11/2015 20:59:06 »
The gravity wave make space/time vibrate, when it pass earth.
Can space/time curve so that time go faster than normal zero gravity time and zero speed time.

My question was if the time can go faster AND slower in the instance the gravity wave pass earth or just slower?


Regards MagI
 

Offline agyejy

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #3 on: 11/11/2015 21:16:18 »
You may find the following pdf to be of interest:

arxiv.org/pdf/1501.00996v2.pdf

The short answer is yes a passing gravity wave is expected to distort time just like it distorts space.
 
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Offline MagI

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #4 on: 11/11/2015 22:03:37 »
I need to know this.

Does theories show that time can go faster than normal zero gravity time and zero speed time?
Have anybody calculated how much faster time can go in curved space/time in its most extreme curvature?
Can time go let's say twice as fast, as a theoretic calculation, compared to zero gravity and zero velocity? 

MagI

 

Offline Bill S

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #5 on: 11/11/2015 22:54:40 »
Quote from: Mag1
Can time go let's say twice as fast, as a theoretic calculation, compared to zero gravity and zero velocity?

How do you establish zero velocity?
 

Offline MagI

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #6 on: 11/11/2015 23:40:55 »
Quote from: Mag1
Can time go let's say twice as fast, as a theoretic calculation, compared to zero gravity and zero velocity?

How do you establish zero velocity?

Zero gravity time and zero velocity time is a total flat space/time curvature, where the time has its universal speed.


MagI
« Last Edit: 11/11/2015 23:42:50 by MagI »
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #7 on: 12/11/2015 00:11:11 »
Time dilation doesn't only happen in a strong gravitational field. It happens as velocity increases. When approaching close to the speed of light it increases exponentially.
 

Offline MagI

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #8 on: 12/11/2015 01:03:55 »
--

I will repeat my question.
I need to know this.
I know about time in gravity and at speeds but I need a answer from someone with at least master in physics.

Does theories show that time can go faster than normal zero gravity time and zero speed time?
Have anybody calculated how much faster time can go in curved space/time in its most extreme space/time curvature?
Can time go let's say twice as fast (in theoretical calculations) compared to zero gravity time / zero velocity time? 



Magnus
Master of Science in Engineering Physics
Sweden
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #9 on: 12/11/2015 02:01:58 »
OK. Let's say for arguments sake that you are in a universe with an absolute frame of reference against which all other frames can be measured. If an object is stationary relative to the absolute frame then dilation of time is at it's minimum and here time is running faster than anywhere else in this universe. I can see no way of speeding time up any further. You are at a maximum for the rate of change at this point. This would be equivalent to the absence of any gravitational field. As if the object is at infinity. Why do you think this might be possible?
 
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Offline MagI

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #10 on: 12/11/2015 09:55:35 »
OK.
Let's say for arguments sake that you are in a universe with an absolute frame of reference against which all other frames can be measured.
If an object is stationary relative to the absolute frame then dilation of time is at it's minimum and here time is running faster than anywhere else in this universe.
I can see no way of speeding time up any further.
You are at a maximum for the rate of change at this point.
This would be equivalent to the absence of any gravitational field.
As if the object is at infinity.
Why do you think this might be possible?

"Let's say for arguments sake that you are in a universe with an absolute frame of reference against which all other frames can be measured. "

Let's say a gravity wave pass this "absolute frame of reference" where time has its maximum universal speed.

Will time only slow down in the instance the gravity wave passes,
or will time slow down AND go faster than time in "absolute frame of reference"?


Can a gravity wave theoretical/mathematically, curve space/time so that time goes let's say ten times faster than time in "absolute frame of reference"?



Magnus
Master of Science in Engineering Physics
Sweden
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #11 on: 12/11/2015 14:16:35 »
I can't meet your requirement for a master of physics so I won't offer any opinion. However, reading through the paper quoted above I think there are some useful pointers there. If you look at Fig 1 it shows h00 varying around an implied zero axis, if that is correct then the wave should go -ve as well as +ve. Just a first observation as I haven't finished reading the whole paper.
 
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Offline MagI

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #12 on: 12/11/2015 19:32:02 »
I can't meet your requirement for a master of physics so I won't offer any opinion. However, reading through the paper quoted above I think there are some useful pointers there. If you look at Fig 1 it shows h00 varying around an implied zero axis, if that is correct then the wave should go -ve as well as +ve. Just a first observation as I haven't finished reading the whole paper.

Yes.
But it is still a very smal time relation and even if it is positive delta time, it does not say if the x-axis is "absolute frame of reference" where time has its maximum universal speed.

I still need to know:
Can a gravity wave theoretical/mathematically, curve space/time so that time goes, let's say ten times faster than time in "absolute frame of reference"?
 


MagI
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #13 on: 13/11/2015 00:36:25 »
I have heard that when a gravity wave pass earth then the space/time vibrate and time change for an instance.
But a wave is often with a top and a valley.

Ok, I think I understand what you are asking.
Firstly, if you have an area of space with zero g, what you call flat spacetime or absolute reference frame, then clock will only run slower in space with +g.
Although waves have a top and a valley think of a violin string, when it vibrates the top and valley are both perturbations of curvature away from the zero curvature rather than +&- in the sense of an AC electrical voltage. From what I can see the gravity wave is a similar type of peturbation, perhaps more akin to an overpressure wave. So time/clocks would not go faster.

What does anyone else think?
« Last Edit: 13/11/2015 00:38:34 by Colin2B »
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Gravity waves and faster time?
« Reply #14 on: 13/11/2015 01:03:23 »
A gravity wave should increase time dilation and length contraction as it passes. However, since no one has detected a gravity wave, this has not been verified experimentally. I don't even know if it can be verified. Other than the effects of gravity waves being like heat wave disturbances in the atmosphere there may be few other ways of visualizing this. It would depend upon the intensity of the gravity wave. Light sources would likely be the only way of determining the dilation. Measurement of photon arrival times should differ from sources at known distances. These may be a bad indicator of the effect since any differences in speed would be so low in magnitude as to be undetectable. The only way to be certain of the magnitude of time dilation would be to observe these light sources in vacuum. If time does go faster than a hypothetical universal frame then light should appear to be traveling at a superluminal speed as the wave passes. This would be a very difficult experiment to carry out.
 

Offline MagI

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I still need to know:

Can a gravity wave theoretical/mathematically, curve space/time so that time goes, let's say ten times faster than time in "absolute frame of reference"?
 
I hope to get a a answer from someone who know the theories of gravity.  :)


MagI
 

Offline Colin2B

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I hope to get a a answer from someone who know the theories of gravity.  :)
Ok, while you are waiting I will chat to Jefffery.
A gravity wave should increase time dilation and length contraction as it passes.
This is the way GR indicates. If you think of spacetime curvature it doesn't matter which way it curves it will still produce time dilation.
Imagine a mass at a zero gravity location, define a direction left (I'm avoiding up and down ;)) if a gravity wave passes and the mass moves left we can say it was due to spacetime curvature and slower time towards the left. Say the next wave moves it to the right, would we say -ve gravity did this, meaning faster time on the left? Or +ve gravity ie slower time on the right. From GR, if you are in truly flat spacetime the only way you can go is curved and that means slower time.

PS I really don't like calling it slower time, we ought to agree a way of describing it. Pete suggested 'clocks run slow' which seems to be used in SR.
 
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Offline MagI

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Well my interpretation of the theory is that time vibrate and goes both faster and slower when a GW pass earth.

So I need to get some answers from someone who work with the gravity wave theories.

Any theoretical physics teachers here or similar  who can show a mathematical interpretation?


MagI
 

Offline Colin2B

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Well my interpretation of the theory is that time vibrate and goes both faster and slower when a GW pass earth.
Could you give details of your calculation please.
Are you assuming when it 'pass earth' that it is inside the gravitational influence of earth, or are you assuming it passing through a zero g field?
 

Offline Chrispen

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gravity waves are not what is being referred to here. gravitational waves are what is. i can't post links yet so you'll have to find your own.

 :)
 

Offline Colin2B

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gravity waves are not what is being referred to here. gravitational waves are what is.
We had assumed that, but are making allowances for Magnus's English. I think the issue here is whether GR allows for a curvature which gives faster clocks, he seems to think that theory allows this for a GW.
 
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Offline Colin2B

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What You think about below problem for electrons
Please don't Troll into other threads, it is very rude.
 
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Offline MagI

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What You think about below problem for electrons
Please don't Troll into other threads, it is very rude.

I have contacted "machmarosz" and asked him to remove his posts.

I still need to know if time can go theoretically/mathematically, let's say ten times faster than normal,
if a theoretically/mathematically extreme GW pass through normal space.

Regards M.Sc. Magnus
 

Offline jeffreyH

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The problem you have is in defining spacetime. Superstring theory defines things differently than quantum loop gravity theory. While superstring theory contains a particle with the properties of the graviton quantum loop gravity does not. The loops in the lattice ARE spacetime. You then have a smallest volume, the Planck volume. This is background independent. You have to then explain how this constant background independent scale can become curved. It is meaningless to consider anything smaller than this volume so does the matter simply occupy a smaller volume?
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Now that's out of the way we can also say that time is quantized. I have not pursued this idea so have little to say on it. This is where you would need to start. I would study Smolin's solution to the Wheeler-DeWitt equation.
 

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