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Author Topic: Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?  (Read 78054 times)

Offline Alan McDougall

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #50 on: 16/11/2008 04:27:34 »
You are right sophie I should have said the push and pull effect of tidal forces between te two huge objects, moon and earth

Alan
 

lyner

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #51 on: 16/11/2008 22:05:17 »
What 'push'? Is there Anti Gravity, all of a sudden?
It just has to be all pull, if you think about it.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #52 on: 17/11/2008 00:50:45 »
sophiecentaur 


Quote
What 'push'? Is there Anti Gravity, all of a sudden?
It just has to be all pull, if you think about it.

No antgravity until they find it maybe in the LHC

The "push" is the "push of the moons tidal gravity energy around the earth", energy must go some so it converts into heat, earth ocean and rock tides. This tidal energy from the moon slows down the earth revolution by a second or two a year.

But remember the earth has been flinging the moon outward slowly further and further for billion of years , just like a hammer thrower , he pushes downward on the ground, to be able to fling the hammer and this push it converted to centrifugal force(gravity in our question) In a sense in this question the hammer thrower AKA Earth has already released the hammer and is slowing down

(I'v got  hammer, hammer in the morning, hammer in the evening, hammer all day that songjust popped into my little mind)

The earth no longer has any tidal effect of the moon as the moon is in a captured orbit around the earth and bulges towards the earth on the sidethat always faces the earth.

But the moon continues its tidal effect on the earth until the earth and moon are both is a on face captured dumbbell orbit

Due to the moons gravitational tidal effects from the moon the earths day or revolution has slowed down from some six hours to its twenty four hours

Heck!! some long winded verbal madness by me but this tiny mortal enity is trying its best  :)

Alan



 
 

lyner

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #53 on: 17/11/2008 10:17:41 »
Quote
The "push" is the "push of the moons tidal gravity energy around the earth",
Could you clarify what exactly is pushing what?
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #54 on: 17/11/2008 13:54:35 »
sophiecentaur






Quote
Could you clarify what exactly is pushing what? 


If you are assuming that I was indicating that the moons gravity could exert a push  gravity effect on the earth, this was not what I meant in my previous post. By push I meant the tides although pulled by the around gravity of the moon also have a push effect on the structure of the earth, as the tidal bulge revolves around the earth.

"This push" is not an effect of gravity just the "energy caused by the resistence of the earths structures against the tidal forces revolving around the earth"

Indeed earthquakes can "speed up" the earth revolution as well. So during some years to day can be "slighty shorter" than the previous year, instead of the usual minute slowing of the revolution


I do not think that there is anything like push gravity or antigravity, but just because I think this does not mean it might not exist still to be discovered.

The physics and mathematics of the earth moon gravitation interactions are hugely complex and if you feel it is worth while to dive into that, just say the word and I will dive into the fray with you. I do not think even in these latter times there is consensus on the topic


“PUSH GRAVITY DOES NOT EXIST”

Alan

 

« Last Edit: 17/11/2008 16:43:22 by Alan McDougall »
 

lyner

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #55 on: 17/11/2008 13:58:50 »
OK, I get what you mean, now.
I agree with the rest of that post, too.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #56 on: 17/11/2008 16:47:06 »
sophiecentaur

I wrote the last post when I was very tired last night and it contained some errors.

I have put the corrections in red this in now how I wanted it to read

Alan
 

Offline LeeE

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #57 on: 17/11/2008 18:15:46 »
I think that the moon is moving away from the Earth because:

a) it doesn't like us anymore.

b) it objects to the Earth's standards of personal hygiene.

c) it doesn't want to catch Earth's communicable diseases.

 ;)
 

Offline Mr. Scientist

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #58 on: 03/04/2009 21:01:39 »
Wanchung, you do  realize friend that one of the biggest flaws in your theory is that ''spin'' is no longer a classical object upon a rotating axis. It seems that it is the angular momentum in which something moves through spacetime.

 ;)
 

Offline yor_on

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #59 on: 05/04/2009 03:22:40 »
Your "proof" is highly suspect in the first place, but since it rests on the idea that the moon doesn't spin, it is doomed.
You may not have noticed, but the moon spins.

Aha Bored Chemist, so you say, actually even I might say so :) But how can I be sure, sometimes when I go home late at night, I actually see the moon spin at a stately time to some forgotten tune, but the next evning, staying home to confirm my observations, it just show me that same old boring face again.

I can't swear to it, but it seems to be related to the lateness of my homecomings, and headaches seems to follow the day after? Yes I know, very strange facts all over, almost makes me believe in UFO:s too.

----

Sorry, missed the 'length' of this thread :)
« Last Edit: 05/04/2009 03:27:01 by yor_on »
 

Offline wanchung

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #60 on: 07/04/2009 04:47:40 »
Dear All,
Mr. ZYH used my name in his article. In fact, my formula is Spinity(frame-dargging force) F=(2G/c^2)JmW/r^2. Below is my orginal article. I have calculated the 3.8cm per year which is the velocity of moon moving away from earth.

Title: The Universal Frame Dragging Force (Spinity) and Maxwell-like Equations


Wanchung Hu
PostDoc Fellow
Academia Sinica
Taipei, Taiwan ROC
Correspondence to: lukluk73_2006@yahoo.com.tw

Abstract
Frame dragging (spinity) is originally identified as an effect caused by central spinning mass. This effect was identified from Dr. Einstein’s general relativity by Drs. Lense and Thirring and is called Lense-Thirring effect. However, this frame dragging is not simply an effect. Actually, it is a fundamental force. I propose here that “rest mass produces gravity, spinning mass produces spinity; rest change produces Coulomb electric force, spinning and moving charge produces magnetism” Frame dragging force(spinity) can drag nearby space-time to rotate around the central spinning mass. The formula is F=(2G/c^2)mJW/r^2. It can explain why all the planets in solar system rotate in the same plane and in the same direction around the sun. It can explain why most satellites in solar system rotate in the same plane and in the same direction around the planets. It can explain why all stars in milky way galaxy rotate in the same plane and in the same direction around the galactic core. It can also help to explain why most planets in our solar system spin in the same direction as our sun. Spinity has a very close relation to gravity. Thus, it should be called gravitospinity as electromagnetism. Considering the relationship between gravity and spinity, the five Maxwell-like equations can be expressed. Frame dragging force (spinity) is a very exciting new physic phenomenon and more studies are required to explore its importance.

Content
Frame dragging force (spinity) is a newly identified force. I propose here that “rest mass produces gravity, spinning mass produces spinity; rest change produces Coulomb electric force, spinning and moving charge produces magnetism”. Frame dragging effect was derived by Dr. Lense and Thirring to describe the procession of an orbiting object using general relativity [7]. Nobel prize winner Dr. LD Landau also derived orbiting object’s lagranian around central spinning mass using general relativity (reference). However, these professors didn’t point out that frame dragging is actually a new basic force which has close relation with gravity. When an object has mass, it will have gravity to attract its parts to the center. In order to overcome this continuously centripetal force, the object needs to spin to produce centrifugal force to balance gravity. When the object spins, spinity occurs. I propose to call this new force “spinity” because it is a combination of “spin” meaning origin of this force and “ity” meaning basic force. Frame dragging means a spinning mass can drag nearby space-time to rotate around the mass, so it is actually a force which can cause peripheral smaller object to orbit around the central mass according to the basic concept of general relativity Below is the summary of Professor Landau’s derivation from general relativity:

Vector g=(2G/c^3)Jr’/r^2 (J:central mass angular momentum ,r’=unit vector)
Lagranian L=-mc*ds/dt=L0+deltaL
deltaL=mc*g*V=(2G/c^2)mJ/r^3*V*r (V=r*W)

Thus, deltaL=(2G/c^2)mJW/r (W=relative angular velocity=Wc(central mass spinning angular velocity)-Ws(peripheral mass orbiting angular velocity))

Because deltaL=F*r

Thus, spinity F=(2G/c^2)mJW/r^2=(2G/c^2)mJV/r^3

Considering the angle theta between orbiting object and the equator plane of central spinning mass, the formula can be adjusted into:

F=(2G/c^2)mJWcosTheta/r^2=ma, S=spinity constant=2G/c^2
How do I know this formula is correct? We can actually confirm it by calculating the moon’s moving away from our earth. Our moon is moving away from our earth about 3.8cm each year by using actuate laser measurement. Current tidal force theory cannot calculate the 3.8cm correctly. I think moon’s moving away from earth is due to the effect of earth’s spinity. Because of earth’s spinity on moon, moon is accelerating in its orbiting and is moving away finally. We can use the following values:( S=2G/c^2=1.48*10^-27, Earth mass=5.9736*10^24, Earth radius=6378km, Earth spinning angular velocity=1/43200(1/sec), Moon orbiting period=27day, Angle thelta=20(cosTheta= 0.94), Moon’s distance from Earth is 384399km). After we get the acceleration a, we can calculate the moving distance by using S’=1/2at^2(t=31536000sec=1 year). Because circumference and radius has a relation (S’=2pi*r’), so r’=S’/2pi. Finally, we get the result r’=3.75149cm which is very close to the laser measurement 3.8cm. Thus, the spinity formula is correct.
 

Offline swansont

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #61 on: 08/04/2009 19:56:20 »
I can prove that the Standard Model argument which states that the Moon is induced with angular momentum because of the Earth's spin is INCORRECT:

                    WHY IS THE MOON NOT SPINNING THEN??  ::)

Cheers,

AL



The moon does spin.  Once per orbit.

Otherwise we'd see the other side of it.

(oops.  I see now that this was already addressed.  Missed that in all the … stuff)
« Last Edit: 08/04/2009 20:03:51 by swansont »
 

Offline swansont

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« Reply #62 on: 08/04/2009 19:59:28 »
Current tidal force theory cannot calculate the 3.8cm correctly. I think moon’s moving away from earth is due to the effect of earth’s spinity. Because of earth’s spinity on moon, moon is accelerating in its orbiting and is moving away finally. We can use the following values:( S=2G/c^2=1.48*10^-27, Earth mass=5.9736*10^24, Earth radius=6378km, Earth spinning angular velocity=1/43200(1/sec), Moon orbiting period=27day, Angle thelta=20(cosTheta= 0.94), Moon’s distance from Earth is 384399km). After we get the acceleration a, we can calculate the moving distance by using S’=1/2at^2(t=31536000sec=1 year). Because circumference and radius has a relation (S’=2pi*r’), so r’=S’/2pi. Finally, we get the result r’=3.75149cm which is very close to the laser measurement 3.8cm. Thus, the spinity formula is correct.


But the tidal forces are there, so if the moon recedes at 3.8 cm/year and if that's what your theory predicts, it means your theory is almost certainly wrong.
« Last Edit: 08/04/2009 20:04:11 by swansont »
 

Offline swansont

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« Reply #63 on: 08/04/2009 20:03:11 »

If the moon is moving away from the earth then would not the same be happening with the earth around the sun? Is that why we have to add a second to time every so often?

The moon moving away robs the earth or angular momentum.  That's the reason for leap seconds; more precisely, it's why leap second additions will become more commonplace, on average, if we continue to implement them.
 

Offline swansont

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« Reply #64 on: 08/04/2009 23:00:00 »
The reason that tides / rotation transfer energy between Earth and Moon is that they are big enough and near enough to each other that they can't be treated as 'point masses'.
We tend to think of orbits as depending just on the masses and separations but that is an over simplification if you want to get accurate predictions. The 'centre of mass' is a very useful idea but doesn't tell the whole story.

It's a little more subtle than that — it's not that they are big, nor that they are close that directly causes this.  If they were perfectly spherical with a uniform mass distribution then they could be treated as point masses (from Gauss's law).  But because of the tides causing a deformation, and the lag in the earth's tidal bulge (it's not pointed directly toward the moon), there is a torque between them.
 

Offline ZHUYH

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #65 on: 28/04/2009 04:38:49 »
   Existing theories even to "leave  the moon moving away from earth "will not solve the problems, but used to explain the solar system, Milky Way and the universe,  the laughing stock of hard to avoid. Existing theory must be amended.
 

lyner

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #66 on: 28/04/2009 09:47:22 »
The reason that tides / rotation transfer energy between Earth and Moon is that they are big enough and near enough to each other that they can't be treated as 'point masses'.
We tend to think of orbits as depending just on the masses and separations but that is an over simplification if you want to get accurate predictions. The 'centre of mass' is a very useful idea but doesn't tell the whole story.


It's a little more subtle than that — it's not that they are big, nor that they are close that directly causes this.  If they were perfectly spherical with a uniform mass distribution then they could be treated as point masses (from Gauss's law).  But because of the tides causing a deformation, and the lag in the earth's tidal bulge (it's not pointed directly toward the moon), there is a torque between them.

Edit: Of course
« Last Edit: 28/04/2009 16:08:10 by sophiecentaur »
 

Offline i-goldfish

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #67 on: 04/10/2009 15:31:02 »
How about gravity - US - we chop down trees, we get oil and other things and we BURN them...
Have fun
i-goldfish
 

Offline i-goldfish

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #68 on: 04/10/2009 15:32:41 »
Earth is getting lighter!!!!
 

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Offline ZHUYH

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #69 on: 19/06/2010 04:03:19 »
Shrunk
Yes,it is a perfectly good explanation,but only qualitative analysis, not to mention the quantitative calculation about the moon away from the Earth (3 cm per year).
Correction; the evidence is quaNTitative. The angular momentum of the Earth is changing (measured) and has ended up in the Moon's motion.
Are you suggesting that all this is some sort of State Secret? Is there a conspiracy to suppress what could be a very interesting topic - if it were actually needed to explain what we have observed?

                " one stone hit four birds"
The tidal force is composed of a normal component (universal gravitation) and a tangential component (vorticity force). Exactly, the vorticity force enables the moon’s angular momentum to get away from the earth. The earth rotation rate gets lower because of the conservation of angular momentum in the process.
Quantitative Calculation:
Applicable formula: tangential component [vorticity force] Ft = kGMmωCosα/ r2
Basic Data:
Cosα≈ 1
Basic Data:
Mass of the earth Me = 6×1024 kg,Moon-earth distance r = 38.4×107 m
mgh = m v2 /2 ①
v = aT ②
Average velocity of the moon in a week: v = =2v/π ③
Angular velocity difference: q = 1-1/30 = 29/30
v = 2aT/π, ω = 1/T
a = KGωM /r2 ④
mg = GMm/r2 ⑤
Daily departing distance of the moon from the earth: h = 2GK2 Mq/π2 r2
= 2×6.67×10-11×0.16×6×1024×29
(38.4×107)2×3.142×30
= 8.51×10-5m
Yearly departing distance of the moon from the earth: 8.51×10-5×365= 0.031m
The results are identical with the measured values.
The vortex theory is also applicable to the earth-moon system. The earth-rotation vorticity force acts on the moon. The moon receives exactly what the earth loses because of the conservation of angular momentum. The counterforce from the moon may cause great waves on the earth surface.


对地球离日等三问题之预判

鉴于六年前运用 涡旋力公式解决 月亮离开地球 问题,现用其中经验公式
h=2GK^2Mq/π^2r^2 对地球离日, 火卫一 Phobos 轨道下降, 火卫二 Deimos 轨道上升等类似问题一并处理并作为对三问题之预判。
calculate the earth are gradually moving away from sun:
cosа≈1
Basic Data:
Me =1.98×10^30kg, sun-earth distance r=1.5×10^11M
mgh=mv - ^2/2 ①
v=at ②
Average velocity of the earth in a week: v - =1/π∫vsinωtdωt= 2v/π ③
Angular velocity difference: q=1-25/365=0.93
v - =2at/π; ω=1/T
a=KGMω/r^2 ④
mg=GMm/r^2 ⑤
25Daily departing distance of the earth from the sun:
h=2GK^2Mq/π^2r^2
=2×6.67×10^-11×0.16×1.98×10^30×0.93/3.14^2×[1.5
×10^11] ^2
=1.77×10^-4 m
It's not much – just 0.25 cm per year
refrence: Why is the Earth moving away from the sun?
§ 18:22 01 June 2009 by Kelly Beatty, SkyandTelescope.com
§ For similar stories, visit the Solar System Topic Guide
calculate about Phobos approaching Mars 轨道下降:
Basic Data: M=6.6×10^23 kg, 火卫一 —— 火星距离 Phobos -Mars distance r=9.345×10^6 m
cycle= 24.62 h, 火卫一公转Phobos cycle: 7.66 h
Angular velocity difference: q=1-24.62/7.66=-2.21 ,

Phobos approaching Mars perday
h=2GK^2Mq/π^2r^2
=2×6.67×10^-11×0.16×6.6×10^23×-2.21/3.14^2×[9.345×10^6] ^2
=-3.6×10^-2 m
Phobos approaching Mars 12 . 8 m peryear
calculate about Deimos moving away from Mars:
Basic Data: M=6.6×10^23 kg, 火卫二Deimos —— 火星Mars distance距离 r=2.3459×10^7 m
Mars cycle: day , Deimos cycle : 1.26244day
Angular velocity difference: q=1-1/1.26244=0.2078
Deimos moving away from Mars perday:
h=2GK^2Mq/π^2r^2
=2×6.67×10^-11×0.16×6.6×10^23×0.2078/3.14^2×[2.3459×10^7] ^2
=5 。 39 ×10^-4 m
Deimos moving away from Mars 0 . 19 m peryear
refre:
sharma
由于火卫一的轨道周期是比火星天短,潮汐减速是在减少约 20 米( 66 英尺),每世纪率其轨道半径。
Because Phobos' orbital period is shorter than a Martian day, tidal deceleration is decreasing its orbital radius at the rate of about 20 metres (66 ft) per century.
 

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Offline ZHUYH

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #70 on: 17/03/2011 02:59:03 »
Shrunk
地震能量源于月亮?
地球与月球之间的距离由于地球表面上潮汐的磨擦作用每年增加将近3.8厘米,让我们计算其一年能量交换。
基本数据:月——地距离r=38.4×10^7M,Me =6×10^24kg
m=7.35×10^22kg,h=0.038米
mg=GMm/r^2①
一年能量交换:mgh=hGMm/r^2
=7.58×10^18J
该能量相当于我国2004年的发电量,与全球每年地震放出的能量接近。可能是该能量使地幔形变震动,板块挤压从而引发地震。
参考:涡旋力
 

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Offline ZHUYH

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« Reply #71 on: 29/11/2011 04:40:36 »
Shrunk
地震能量源于月亮?
   
杨学祥教授评语:“很可能”


link redacted - moderator
« Last Edit: 01/12/2011 18:00:22 by imatfaal »
 

Offline imatfaal

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #72 on: 01/12/2011 18:00:38 »
Please post in English.  Thanks

Please do not just post links to other websites - this is a discussion website not a repository of links.  Either post a question for the members to discuss, or a theory in New Theories.

thanks imatfaal - moderator
 

Offline CliffordK

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #73 on: 01/12/2011 22:21:54 »
How about gravity - US - we chop down trees, we get oil and other things and we BURN them...
Have fun
i-goldfish

This looks like an old suggestion.  However, due to the conservation of matter, most of what we do down here on Earth has little effect on the mass of the Earth.

So, burning wood, for example, creates gases of equal mass to the wood being burnt plus the mass of the oxygen consumed, plus, of course, the ashes left over.

A few exceptions would be:
Nuclear reactions actually consume a very small amount of mass, including the nuclear decomposition reactions that are naturally occurring on Earth.

Helium can escape from the atmosphere.  Some helium is recovered from oil and natural gas mining operations, then released in the air, and eventually could get lost to space.

We have, of course, blasted a few rockets beyond Earth's gravitational well. 

Solar winds and cosmic rays may either add particles to our atmosphere (where we get most of the carbon-14 on Earth), or knock the particles away from the earth.  It is likely in generally a steady state.

Anyway, one should certainly carefully consider Earth's overall mass which would generally be independent from Man's activities.  But, the tidal forces seem to be a more reasonable explanation.
 

Offline CliffordK

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Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #74 on: 01/12/2011 22:35:33 »
Please post in English.  Thanks

Chinese is difficult for many people on this site to read.
Google Translate does a pretty good job...  but most people won't bother with it.

地震能量源于月亮?
地球与月球之间的距离由于地球表面上潮汐的磨擦作用每年增加将近3.8厘米,让我们计算其一年能量交换。
基本数据:月——地距离r=38.4×10^7M,Me =6×10^24kg
m=7.35×10^22kg,h=0.038米
mg=GMm/r^2①
一年能量交换:mgh=hGMm/r^2
=7.58×10^18J
该能量相当于我国2004年的发电量,与全球每年地震放出的能量接近。可能是该能量使地幔形变震动,板块挤压从而引发地震。
参考:涡旋力
Quote
Seismic energy from the moon?
The distance between the Earth and Moon on the Earth's surface as tidal friction role annual increase of nearly 3.8 cm, we calculate the energy exchange year.
Basic Data: Monthly - the distance r = 38.4 × 10 ^ 7M, Me = 6 × 10 ^ 24kg
m = 7.35 × 10 ^ 22kg, h = 0.038 米
mg = GMm / r ^ 2 ①
Year energy exchange: mgh = hGMm / r ^ 2
= 7.58 × 10 ^ 18J
The energy equivalent of China's generating capacity in 2004, with global annual energy of earthquakes close to release. Possible deformation of the vibration energy of the mantle, plate extrusion causing earthquakes.
Reference: vortex force
地震能量源于月亮?
   
杨学祥教授评语:“很可能”
Quote
Seismic energy from the moon?
   
Professor Yang Xuexiang reviews: "very likely"

So, I assume what you are meaning to say is that the moon not only causes tides on Earth, but is also contributing to the tectonic activity of the earth, and earthquakes.  I believe this is a widely held theory. 

However, it seems to have little to do with the slowly increasing distance between the Earth and the moon except that the tides are related to the transfer of rotational energy from the Earth to the Moon.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Why is the moon moving further away from the Earth?
« Reply #74 on: 01/12/2011 22:35:33 »

 

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