# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?  (Read 9843 times)

#### MattFaw

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #50 on: 01/01/2016 19:40:47 »
Gravity is the unification of space, space always wants to unite, space pulls space together at every single point of space. ''Push'' is polarisation of  mass v mass, the Universe is contracting and expanding at the same time.

Surrounding and within  every existing mass exists space, space always contracts, metal expands when the atoms become positive ions, substances are no different to metal, The earth swells, but space contracts the earth, the sun pushes the earth,s core and positive ions of the earth. Galaxies push each others positive ions, hence expansion and light stretching.

Hi, Thebox.  I agree the terms 'push' and 'pull' are not entirely accurate.

The way I understand it is: mass draws spacetime to it.  If there is a less massive mass in that spacetime, it will follow the path which the spacetime provides.  On earth, spacetime is being drawn radially in, toward the center of the planet (spacetime doesn't end at the earth's surface, and goes all the way down).  Since we are smaller masses on the earth, we are drawn in the direction that spacetime is going, which is toward the center of the planet.

I don't have an opinion about the nature of spacetime on very small scales (ions, etc.), because electromagnetism and the other forces seem to be so much more relevant than gravity on that scale.

#### MattFaw

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #51 on: 01/01/2016 19:46:17 »
Matt, thank you for the encouraging appraisal of my Hypothesis, and an extra thank you for so clearly understanding what I am trying to say. Your answer and description of Galactic rotations is exactly what one of the things this Hypothesis or maybe I can call it theory as it is supported by all the evidence we have for GR, anyway it is exactly one of the things that fall out of it.
I do see spacetime as a no viscosity fluid.
Although I have been toying with this idea for several years now, I have started to notice lately that more and more physicists without actually coming out and saying so, are starting to seriously consider Spacetime as an actual medium.
Our friend Michio Kaku being one of them. Unfortunately even though they might make appropriate sounding descriptive comments, when it comes down to official theory and the Mathematics used to describe situations within spacetime, they all stick to a fixed coordinate treatment of spacetime.
It seems like their subconscious is trying to tell them that Spacetime like everything else in this Universe is not static, but their conscious refuses to allow it. Michio Kaku can be excused as he has devoted most of his efforts in String Theory. I just don't understand why for 100 years no one has proposed that Spacetime might be allowed to move. After all that is the only change I am proposing to GR. Everything else seems to find it's own answers after that.
Even at the Quantum level, how many times have I heard the explanation that when an atom drops from a higher orbital to a lower one it does it instantly. It does not travel through the Spacetime in-between the two different states. Surely that is a behavior that should suggest something is happening here that needs extra explanation.
Anyway enough of my frustrations and again thank you for understanding my very amateur speculations.

I'm likewise glad to find someone who is exploring the same territory I've been thinking about.

If you're interested, I created the following theory video, about tweaking General Relativity to get rid of the need for Dark Matter.

best,

matt faw

Not a valid vimeo URL

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#### Space Flow

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #52 on: 02/01/2016 01:15:05 »
Matt, that is absolutely incredible.
It was literally like hearing myself speak. We are so close to being in the same Universe it's not funny.
I love your video. That unfortunately is not something I can do. Or maybe after watching how you put it together I could try. But you my friend have a talent. And a great presentation voice.
We have to work together. The similarity in concept is uncanny. You were well on the way I reckon to finding the mechanism behind the Flowing liquid-like nature of spacetime.
I would love to see a video combining our views..
How do you go with copyright with using bits of other peoples videos?

Edit; Matt, I also watched the video on dark energy. Don't quite agree with a fair bit of that content.
We should talk.
« Last Edit: 02/01/2016 03:27:33 by Space Flow »

#### MattFaw

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #53 on: 02/01/2016 05:50:11 »
Thanks, Space Flow, nice to talk to someone who is thinking along the same lines.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Dark Energy.  It's all speculation on my part, so there's plenty of room for improvement.

About copyright.  In theory, my excerpting these videos should be considered "fair use", under copyright law.  Fair use says that (within reason) you can excerpt in order to either lampoon or comment upon.  Since there's no profit (and since it's Vimeo), I don't foresee problems with the vid.
« Last Edit: 02/01/2016 05:54:22 by MattFaw »

#### Space Flow

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #54 on: 02/01/2016 05:59:00 »
Can I use your video to describe part of my theory?
I would love to see what you can do with adding my theory to give yours a reason behind the flows of spacetime. And tie it into the Quantum world.
I hope that's a possibility.. :-)
Together we could be greater than the sum of the parts.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #55 on: 02/01/2016 07:19:23 »
Matt, thank you for the encouraging appraisal of my Hypothesis, and an extra thank you for so clearly understanding what I am trying to say. Your answer and description of Galactic rotations is exactly what one of the things this Hypothesis or maybe I can call it theory as it is supported by all the evidence we have for GR, anyway it is exactly one of the things that fall out of it.
I do see spacetime as a no viscosity fluid.
Although I have been toying with this idea for several years now, I have started to notice lately that more and more physicists without actually coming out and saying so, are starting to seriously consider Spacetime as an actual medium.
Our friend Michio Kaku being one of them. Unfortunately even though they might make appropriate sounding descriptive comments, when it comes down to official theory and the Mathematics used to describe situations within spacetime, they all stick to a fixed coordinate treatment of spacetime.
It seems like their subconscious is trying to tell them that Spacetime like everything else in this Universe is not static, but their conscious refuses to allow it. Michio Kaku can be excused as he has devoted most of his efforts in String Theory. I just don't understand why for 100 years no one has proposed that Spacetime might be allowed to move. After all that is the only change I am proposing to GR. Everything else seems to find it's own answers after that.
Even at the Quantum level, how many times have I heard the explanation that when an atom drops from a higher orbital to a lower one it does it instantly. It does not travel through the Spacetime in-between the two different states. Surely that is a behavior that should suggest something is happening here that needs extra explanation.
Anyway enough of my frustrations and again thank you for understanding my very amateur speculations.

I'm likewise glad to find someone who is exploring the same territory I've been thinking about.

If you're interested, I created the following theory video, about tweaking General Relativity to get rid of the need for Dark Matter.

best,

matt faw

Not a valid vimeo URL

I watched some of your video and stopped early on, again somebody is trying to create something more that does not exist, dark energy is space itself, dark matter is light, both of these are invisible to the eye and neutral while unified in space. Dark gravity is a no no.  Electrostatic is made from energy Ke interactions .  Both of your ideas are shadows of my own thoughts from has far back as 2009.

It was I who suggested space is attracted to space, it was I who recognises that when an object is displaced, space fills the ''space'' where the object was.   You are welcome to all the ideas, why are you talking copy rights?    science is free for all to share , there is no copy rights in science when considering space.

added - after watching further I hear more rubbish, something accounts for motion that we have not touched, incorrect, energy accounts for work. the unification of everything is EWUe.

« Last Edit: 02/01/2016 09:22:46 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #56 on: 02/01/2016 08:26:53 »
« Last Edit: 02/01/2016 09:09:43 by Thebox »

#### GoC

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #57 on: 02/01/2016 14:19:48 »
Dark matter, dark energy and spacetime are the same thing. We will never view dark matter because it is spin energy in motion of c. Spin energy of c moves the electrons. This is why in GR light and the electron always measure distance of light travel the same in every frame. It is the dilation of energy affecting space distance for light and electron movement.

You have it exactly backwards because you are not following logic. What is dilation? It is expansion. c of space move the electrons and this causes space energy to expand. Dark Mass is the micro particles and dark energy is the spin of dark matter. Two different aspects of the same thing. The spin is what makes it fluid like. We are a part of that measurement so we can never measure c spin. We would need something faster than light speed to do that. Finding dark mass energy is an exercise in futility

Mass expands space to a less dense energy per volume of space. This is what causes attraction of mass. Mass is attracted to a larger volume of space with less dense energy.

Yes mass carries its dilated space with it and has a threshold to the more dense energy of massless space. But the accumulated dilation is evident in galaxies spinning as a disk of dilated energy. Dilation is the cause of light bending around macro mass (electrons, protons and Neutrons). Space energy density increase would contract the photon path not expand it. Relativity is correct. Its just not accepted for what it really describes.

Both voyagers appeared to slow down when they reached the edge of the solar system. Why? Because the density of energy increased at the edge causing the signal time to shorten. We incorrectly judged that to be the slowing of the voyagers. In reality it was just another observation of Relativity.

Relativity rules the universe by energy c and energy density differences by GR flow of the electrons in total mass. What causes electron flow? Something!!!! and not nothing! Fundamental energy is not the electron but what moves the electrons.

Gravity is simply mass being attracted to dilated space. Potential kinetic energy is a mass energy to a more dilated micro energy. Kinetic energy is the transfer of micro space energy between macro mass objects.

All mass creates an aura around it. The universe, a galaxy, a black hole (special aura), solar system, a sun, a planet, a person and the atom. That aura is the dilation of space energy. I believe this to be just an extension of Relativity different fro the main stream interpretation.

#### MattFaw

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #58 on: 02/01/2016 17:58:57 »
Can I use your video to describe part of my theory?
I would love to see what you can do with adding my theory to give yours a reason behind the flows of spacetime. And tie it into the Quantum world.
I hope that's a possibility.. :-)
Together we could be greater than the sum of the parts.
Hi Space Flow,

By all means, feel free to use the video as explainer; that's what I made it for.  And of course, if you have disagreements and caveats to make along with it, that's fine too.  I've re-purposed all the video footage in it, to make my video; so I don't see why you shouldn't use my video the same way.

I am definitely interested in collaborating.  My energy is currently obsessed with a different topic: the science of consciousness, as I am 5 years into making a 3D documentary about the topic (promo below).  I made the Dark Matter/Dark Energy vids as a holiday gift to myself, since I've been sitting on that theory for so long.  As I'm sure you know, some ideas just want to be expressed.

But by all means, let me know how you think the theories should be tweaked, and any ideas into making the arguments more robust.

best,

matt faw

#### MattFaw

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #59 on: 02/01/2016 18:02:59 »
I watched some of your video and stopped early on, again somebody is trying to create something more that does not exist, dark energy is space itself, dark matter is light, both of these are invisible to the eye and neutral while unified in space. Dark gravity is a no no.  Electrostatic is made from energy Ke interactions .  Both of your ideas are shadows of my own thoughts from has far back as 2009.

It was I who suggested space is attracted to space, it was I who recognises that when an object is displaced, space fills the ''space'' where the object was.   You are welcome to all the ideas, why are you talking copy rights?    science is free for all to share , there is no copy rights in science when considering space.

added - after watching further I hear more rubbish, something accounts for motion that we have not touched, incorrect, energy accounts for work. the unification of everything is EWUe.
I have to admit, I'm having a hard time understanding your comment or the attached video.  It doesn't sound like you're making a direct response to what I said in my vid.

#### MattFaw

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #60 on: 02/01/2016 18:11:08 »
Dark matter, dark energy and spacetime are the same thing. We will never view dark matter because it is spin energy in motion of c. Spin energy of c moves the electrons. This is why in GR light and the electron always measure distance of light travel the same in every frame. It is the dilation of energy affecting space distance for light and electron movement.

You have it exactly backwards because you are not following logic. What is dilation? It is expansion. c of space move the electrons and this causes space energy to expand. Dark Mass is the micro particles and dark energy is the spin of dark matter. Two different aspects of the same thing. The spin is what makes it fluid like. We are a part of that measurement so we can never measure c spin. We would need something faster than light speed to do that. Finding dark mass energy is an exercise in futility

Mass expands space to a less dense energy per volume of space. This is what causes attraction of mass. Mass is attracted to a larger volume of space with less dense energy.

Yes mass carries its dilated space with it and has a threshold to the more dense energy of massless space. But the accumulated dilation is evident in galaxies spinning as a disk of dilated energy. Dilation is the cause of light bending around macro mass (electrons, protons and Neutrons). Space energy density increase would contract the photon path not expand it. Relativity is correct. Its just not accepted for what it really describes.

Both voyagers appeared to slow down when they reached the edge of the solar system. Why? Because the density of energy increased at the edge causing the signal time to shorten. We incorrectly judged that to be the slowing of the voyagers. In reality it was just another observation of Relativity.

Relativity rules the universe by energy c and energy density differences by GR flow of the electrons in total mass. What causes electron flow? Something!!!! and not nothing! Fundamental energy is not the electron but what moves the electrons.

Gravity is simply mass being attracted to dilated space. Potential kinetic energy is a mass energy to a more dilated micro energy. Kinetic energy is the transfer of micro space energy between macro mass objects.

All mass creates an aura around it. The universe, a galaxy, a black hole (special aura), solar system, a sun, a planet, a person and the atom. That aura is the dilation of space energy. I believe this to be just an extension of Relativity different fro the main stream interpretation.
Hi GoC.  I agree with you that relativity is probably incomplete, but not broken.

I also agree that my metaphors (e.g. spacetime clinging to mass, spacetime being denser around mass) are imperfect, because they describe 4D phenomena with words that are usually only meaningful in 3D.

I am curious why you think that space dilates near mass (other than the Voyagers example).  It's possible that's a better way of describing spacetime's behavior, but I don't yet understand your metaphor's appeal.  Maybe you can give some other examples which support this interpretation?

best,

matt faw

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #61 on: 03/01/2016 10:42:50 »

Hi GoC.  I agree with you that relativity is probably incomplete, but not broken.

I also agree that my metaphors (e.g. spacetime clinging to mass, spacetime being denser around mass) are imperfect, because they describe 4D phenomena with words that are usually only meaningful in 3D.

I am curious why you think that space dilates near mass (other than the Voyagers example).  It's possible that's a better way of describing spacetime's behavior, but I don't yet understand your metaphor's appeal.  Maybe you can give some other examples which support this interpretation?

best,

matt faw

Matt, do not get wrapped up into space time, space time only exists has a concept, it only exists between two points of mass, it is a virtual navigation system to represent journeys that have not been taken.

XYZ only exists of matter and time only exists of matter, space time is a n-dimensional  5th dimension solution to a problem, no more no less.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #62 on: 03/01/2016 10:46:34 »
Dark matter, dark energy and spacetime are the same thing.

No they are not,

#### GoC

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #63 on: 03/01/2016 16:01:00 »
Maybe you can give some other examples which support this interpretation?

Logic is the best option for understanding. Dilation in Relativity is just that dilation of space time. I say space time because I suspect time is of space and not mass. Why do you and many others suspect space as fluid? Motion of course. What is the motion of space? c of course is the motion of space. The electron is measured to be slower than a photon. How can something slower create a constant speed faster? So logically energy is of space and not mass. What moves the electrons? We measure time with electrons. Electrons from the same atoms tick at the same rate at sea level. Both mechanical and light clocks measure time equally at sea level. They are synchronized in the same frame but no longer synchronized when one changes frame. There is a constant that is adjusted by frames in both GR and SR. With GR it is dilation of space that changes the tick rate by increasing distance both the electron and photon has to travel. Dilation is strongest in the center of mass. Clocks tick slowest in the center of mass. So we have space time as energy of c to move electrons and photons. Dilation of space energy (necessary for flow) is the cause of time being measured differently between frames. Frames are both a SR and GR issue. Attraction is only a GR issue of mass being attracted to the most dilated position. Magnetism is the spin alignment of energy. Two separate issues of the same energy of what we refer to as time.

#### Phractality

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #64 on: 03/01/2016 17:31:34 »
Matt, do not get wrapped up into space time, space time only exists has a concept, it only exists between two points of mass, it is a virtual navigation system to represent journeys that have not been taken. XYZ only exists of matter and time only exists of matter, space time is a n-dimensional  5th dimension solution to a problem, no more no less.

X, Y, Z & T are names that we give to dimensions of the space and time that exist in our imaginations. We can carve those names into physical objects, like graph paper, in the real space-time that hosts the atoms we're made of; or we may type the names of coordinate axes into a computer program, where they control how data are stored in a microprocessor's transistors, as well as how the data are presented on a screen or in a VR helmet.

Now, if you had a VR helmet and a haptic feedback suit, you could make a pretty good match between the virtual space-time in the computer and the real space-time in which your body exists. You could even take that to the extreme and be absorbed into the Matrix. But the two space-times would still not be identical.

So we have this virtual space-time programmed into a computer, complete with Einstein's relativity, occupied by low-res digital imitations of whatever galaxies SDSS has mapped in 3D. We can zoom out to view our virtual observable universe as seen by a hypothetical viewer anywhere in the mapped region (bearing in mind that our view of distant galaxies may be a few billion years old, and an observer there would be seeing our galaxy as it was billions of years ago). We look thru our virtual Hubble space-telescope into our virtual universe; then we compare what we see there to what the real HST sees in the real universe . If we see discrepancies, we can tweak our virtual universe.

We can also zoom in on a virtual atomic nucleus in our virtual universe. But the picture in there is a blur because we can't resolve time or space that closely in the real universe. We are free to invent models which can be resolved arbitrarily small in both space and time. But we can only predict real world outcomes statistically. If the model predicts probable outcomes which are not a good statistical match to what the LHC detects, the model needs to be tweaked.

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#### Space Flow

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #65 on: 03/01/2016 22:39:53 »
Dilation is strongest in the center of mass. Clocks tick slowest in the center of mass.
GoC, Without reference to the rest of your dilation theory which in some ways sounds right and in others I am not quite following yet, I want to point out something about this comment.
When something is at the precise centre of a compact mass, it is not feeling an attraction towards anything. Because the amount of mass on all sides is exactly the same. In your description ST is dilated yes. In mine similarly, there would exist at this point the lowest ST pressure possible. But clocks are not believed to run slower there. In fact it is believed that clocks would have their max run rate in that situation, just the same as if they are situated as far away from mass as possible in the middle of the biggest void in the Universe. Well that is the popular consensus and I must admit it seems to make sense.
« Last Edit: 03/01/2016 22:42:47 by Space Flow »

#### MattFaw

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #66 on: 04/01/2016 00:41:11 »
Maybe you can give some other examples which support this interpretation?
Logic is the best option for understanding. Dilation in Relativity is just that dilation of space time. I say space time because I suspect time is of space and not mass. Why do you and many others suspect space as fluid? Motion of course. What is the motion of space? c of course is the motion of space. The electron is measured to be slower than a photon. How can something slower create a constant speed faster? So logically energy is of space and not mass. What moves the electrons? We measure time with electrons. Electrons from the same atoms tick at the same rate at sea level. Both mechanical and light clocks measure time equally at sea level. They are synchronized in the same frame but no longer synchronized when one changes frame. There is a constant that is adjusted by frames in both GR and SR. With GR it is dilation of space that changes the tick rate by increasing distance both the electron and photon has to travel. Dilation is strongest in the center of mass. Clocks tick slowest in the center of mass. So we have space time as energy of c to move electrons and photons. Dilation of space energy (necessary for flow) is the cause of time being measured differently between frames. Frames are both a SR and GR issue. Attraction is only a GR issue of mass being attracted to the most dilated position. Magnetism is the spin alignment of energy. Two separate issues of the same energy of what we refer to as time.
Hi GoC, thanks for your response.

I have to go back and look at Special Relativity again.  I know that clocks tick slower on fast objects than slow ones.  And space contracts at high speed, so measuring rods seem shorter (as viewed from a slower frame).

I don't see why clocks would tick faster at the center of a mass, because there is where the speed is the least.  Gravity should be at its weakest in the center, because it cancels itself out from all directions.   (oh, now I see that Space Flow has given the same critique).

I would not say that "energy is of space and not mass".  I would say rather that energy (as in Einstein's E) is equivalent to mass, and space is the path upon which both energy (e.g. photons) or mass (e.g. electrons) can travel.  Spacetime, as I understand it, is basically potential.  It's just potential that can also be shaped and influenced by the mass within it.

I understand that c and spacetime are intimately linked, but I don't think that the movement of spacetime itself is related to c.  If, as Kip Thorne says, the earth is dragging spacetime along with it, and as Brian Greene says, the supermassive black hole is dragging even more spacetime with it, and also movement within clusters is facilitated by even larger flows of spacetime, then it seems like speed is a factor of the density of spacetime, how it fits into inertial frames that surround it, and how the adjacent spacetime is moving.  I think fluid dynamics, combined with GR, will ultimately be a good way of describing the movement of spacetime.

As for your mentions of electrons, I can't comment, because AFAIK, spacetime on massive scales doesn't easily translate to the behavior of it on small scales.  That's the basis of my video, that spacetime behaves differently, on different scales.  I would be hard-pressed to extrapolate from my view of spacetime as fluid, and come up with a prediction for particle physics.

best,

matt faw

#### takso

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #67 on: 04/01/2016 01:37:43 »
Spacetime is actually an endless evolving frequency cum becoming process in the cosmos.  We could liken the frequency to space and the becoming process to time because time is actually a dimension (indicator) for the becoming process and space is merely an expression for energy in play as per frequency (i.e. the number of occurrences or observations within a given time period or statistical category).

Frankly speaking, everything does exist at the same time under present-dynamism only.  The projectile movement of time as often experienced by our mind consciousness is purely due to relativity as well as the varying vibrational frequencies in play.  As a result, we tend to perceive things a little bit linearly, thus creating the delusion of past, present and future movement of time.  The conventional time that we involve ourselves with every day is a subjective and a relative time.  This means the time orientation is dependent on the observer (i.e. the subject’s mind) to provide the valuation on the other side of the object or matter.  As a consequence, the time conclusion varies among different observers or minds.

Present-dynamism  =  frequency x becoming (space x time)

In the twinkling of an eye, all events or phenomena as observed by our mind consciousness would fluctuate and renew simultaneously and continuously.  Just like the gravity effects on earth for all different masses are the same (acceleration value, g = 9.80 m/s2) even though the rock strikes the ground before the feather per se.  However, the common pace of spacetime or present-dynamism is unconjecturable and it is mainly due its nature of beginning-less and end-less.  For example, despite the vast differences in the cultural development, the time zone and the locality, a Bushman in Africa and a modern businessman in America are both living concurrently in the 21st century under a common pace of spacetime or present-dynamism.  Literally, we could not discriminate or differentiate them by saying that the Bushman is from the past time and the modern businessman is a person living in the future time.  The distinguishing factor among them and their respective surroundings is merely their variable vibrational frequencies.

In fact, the circumstances of duality or multiplicity as observed by our mind consciousness would be an obvious indication of all fluctuating vibrational frequencies arising in the cosmos.  This is because everything in the material Universe is made up of energy.  Atoms and molecules are made up of energy.  Our bodies, our clothes, our cars, our houses are all made up of energy but what makes them different is their vibration.  Energy is always vibrating at a different frequency under the influence of conditional phenomena.  Everything has its own vibrational frequency – our thoughts, our feelings, the rock, the table, the car, the animal, the plant, the tree, etc.  Even colours are merely expressions of certain vibrational frequencies.

How does gravity work?
Visit : slideshare.net/buddhitakso/energy-web

« Last Edit: 04/01/2016 03:01:34 by takso »

#### GoC

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #68 on: 04/01/2016 04:32:34 »
MattFaw and Space Flow

I understand why you both would think acceleration has something to do with clock speed. This is incorrect acceleration just increases speed. It is the speed of mass that slows you clock right up to the speed of light where if it were possible to obtain that speed the electron flow would not move from its position in its shell. There is an equivalence between SR and GR. On the Earth surface we accelerate toward the center of Earth. The center of Earth is like an inertial ship at a constant speed So if there were a room in the center of lets say, the moon so we do not get trapped with molten rock issues, that is where the speed is the greatest, the clocks are the slowest and there is no longer any acceleration. The gravitational center represents the greatest inertial speed in equivalence with SR.

Deceleration and acceleration is indistinguishable in space but clocks tick faster towards deceleration and slower towards acceleration. As you can now determine acceleration is not the cause of clocks slowing there tick rate.

Lets take an old well for an example. Using a standard wave length like a sodium lamp. Light produced in the bottom of the well will be red shifted when detected at the top of the well because it was produced in a more dilated position of space. The experiment that proves this should remain constant to the center of mass.

This I why I suggest mass is attracted to the most dilated position of space and mass dilates space. Dilation is a reduction of energy density that mass occupies. Mass expands its electron distance traveled by the same amount light has to travel extra. This is why mechanical and light clocks tick off the same time in the same frame.

#### Space Flow

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #69 on: 04/01/2016 06:23:11 »
MattFaw and Space Flow

I understand why you both would think acceleration has something to do with clock speed. This is incorrect acceleration just increases speed. It is the speed of mass that slows you clock right up to the speed of light where if it were possible to obtain that speed the electron flow would not move from its position in its shell. There is an equivalence between SR and GR. On the Earth surface we accelerate toward the center of Earth. The center of Earth is like an inertial ship at a constant speed So if there were a room in the center of lets say, the moon so we do not get trapped with molten rock issues, that is where the speed is the greatest, the clocks are the slowest and there is no longer any acceleration. The gravitational center represents the greatest inertial speed in equivalence with SR.

Deceleration and acceleration is indistinguishable in space but clocks tick faster towards deceleration and slower towards acceleration. As you can now determine acceleration is not the cause of clocks slowing there tick rate.
GoC. somehow you have misunderstood me. I have never claimed that acceleration has something to do with clock speed. Clock speed or the rate of time is always relative speed dependent. Acceleration on the other hand is a change rate in Geodesic.
Now there are different ways to effect the change rate of Geodesic and only one of them ends up with an increase of speed to a distant observer. You can do it by standing on the surface of a planet and allowing the spacetime to accelerate past you. This will not change your speed or your clock rate even though you are in accelerated frame.
Or you can stick a huge rocket under your feet and accelerate past your geodesic at a certain rate and that will change your speed and clock rate. To a distant observer of course.
The only other thing I find I have to point out is that standing on the Earth's surface we are not accelerating towards the centre of the Earth but in exactly the opposite direction. But to a distant observer we are not changing our speed so we are not changing our clock rate.
When you say clocks tick faster towards deceleration and slower towards acceleration. By who's frame of reference? Every change rate of Geodesic that results in a change of relative speed can be seen as an acceleration or a deceleration, depending on your frame of reference.
I'm afraid that without specifying a frame of reference none of that makes any sort of sense.
Time, space and speed are relative. Only the observed speed of light remains constant.
« Last Edit: 04/01/2016 06:31:32 by Space Flow »

#### MattFaw

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #70 on: 04/01/2016 07:47:47 »
GoC, Space Flow makes an important point.  Our usual frame of reference (in the gravitational well of the earth) is one of acceleration.  That is what we experience as normal.  Gravity = acceleration, and so that is what we know as reality.  And that's a big part of why it's so hard to intuit no-gravity motion, and why it's so useful to check out the NASA videos showing experiments on the ISS.  It is only when we start to understand no-acceleration, which is roughly speaking, the nature of most objects in space, that we can start to have a sense of what motion means in space.

best,

matt faw

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #71 on: 04/01/2016 08:32:33 »
Matt, do not get wrapped up into space time, space time only exists has a concept, it only exists between two points of mass, it is a virtual navigation system to represent journeys that have not been taken. XYZ only exists of matter and time only exists of matter, space time is a n-dimensional  5th dimension solution to a problem, no more no less.

X, Y, Z & T are names that we give to dimensions of the space and time that exist in our imaginations. We can carve those names into physical objects, like graph paper, in the real space-time that hosts the atoms we're made of; or we may type the names of coordinate axes into a computer program, where they control how data are stored in a microprocessor's transistors, as well as how the data are presented on a screen or in a VR helmet.

Yes you understand space-time ......unlike others

#### GoC

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #72 on: 04/01/2016 13:50:49 »
MattFaw and Space Flow

No matter what anybody thinks they understand about relativity it is based on c as the maximum energy available for motion. Inertial speed or geodesic position is just the SR and GR equivalence. The greater your inertial speed the less energy is left in c. Your flow of electron orbitals are reduced by inertial speed and clocks slow as a fraction of available c energy left as SR. GR the distance electrons orbit increases with mass increase due to increased dilation to slow your clock rate relative to the energy of c. you must understand relativity in the context of c being constant and finite. This means all that is available. E= mass x c to move electrons and c available from space energy for motion itself. There is no motion or time without c.

When you are asked relative to what it is always relative to c. Two different positions of mass is just the geometry of mass. We can never view mass were it actually physically exists using the finite speed of light because when the image reaches our eyes the physical position of an object has changed.

There is a depth of understanding of relativity that needs to be understood to make claims about observations related to relativity. Until we are all on the same page various ideas will emerge to confuse the issue of relativity sending us down a branch on the tree of knowledge.

#### MattFaw

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #73 on: 04/01/2016 16:30:54 »
MattFaw and Space Flow

No matter what anybody thinks they understand about relativity it is based on c as the maximum energy available for motion. Inertial speed or geodesic position is just the SR and GR equivalence. The greater your inertial speed the less energy is left in c. Your flow of electron orbitals are reduced by inertial speed and clocks slow as a fraction of available c energy left as SR. GR the distance electrons orbit increases with mass increase due to increased dilation to slow your clock rate relative to the energy of c. you must understand relativity in the context of c being constant and finite. This means all that is available. E= mass x c to move electrons and c available from space energy for motion itself. There is no motion or time without c.

When you are asked relative to what it is always relative to c. Two different positions of mass is just the geometry of mass. We can never view mass were it actually physically exists using the finite speed of light because when the image reaches our eyes the physical position of an object has changed.

There is a depth of understanding of relativity that needs to be understood to make claims about observations related to relativity. Until we are all on the same page various ideas will emerge to confuse the issue of relativity sending us down a branch on the tree of knowledge.
Hi GoC,

I agree that c is an integral part of spacetime, that it is fundamental.  All time and motion is relative to c, I agree.

I have never heard the suggestion that a relativistic mass increase is due to the electron orbits increasing, and I don't have any commentary on that.

I don't understand what your disagreement is.  Is there something Space Flow has written or that I said in my video, that you take exception with?

best,

matt faw

#### Space Flow

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##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #74 on: 05/01/2016 01:08:31 »
GoC, Similarly to Matt, I too agree that everything is limited by c.
The way I view it and I believe this is just another way of stating what you are saying is described best by this diagram.

Like Matt I have never thought about Electron orbits changing, but I imagine that in a relativistic way, if an outside observer was to look at a reference frame that to him was time dilated and space contracted, then that is what he would see. That is what relativity equations tell us after all.
On the various ways you have presented spacetime dilation close to massive objects certainly connects to me well enough with my theory of space-flow, as Matter, by sucking in Spacetime would create the equivalent of a lower pressure system in it's vicinity. That is of course what accounts for any matter moving without acceleration as all matter would move towards the lower pressure area just to balance Global spacetime intake.
Different approaches coming to similar conclusions to me says that we are converging on a truth.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: What is the mechanism behind Gravity?
« Reply #74 on: 05/01/2016 01:08:31 »

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