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Author Topic: Are these the 8 reasons why people from the future have not come back in time?  (Read 6010 times)

Offline Thebox

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1. No, I am defining a moment as precisely ''how fast the brain works'', consciousness ''moving on''

Can you be more precise? 

Are you saying all brains work at the same speed, or that a moment is purely subjective?


I do not know if all brains work at the same speed, I know sight works at the same speed as light.  I presume Neurons ''fire'' at the same speed and maybe all  brain wavelengths are the same.


Time is subjective to an individual, if there was no us  or life with a brain, time would simply ''vanish'' and be immaterial , the universe does  not need time to exist, we do not need time to exist to exist, time is subjective invention in the aim of immortality. Time is no more than a measuring aid.

There can be no future to come back from, and personally i think the ancient Egyptians and their search for Elixirs of life are testament to the invention of ''why'' time.


Consider that space is timeless, you could re-arrange all the matter in the visual universe and this would not effect the dimension of space.

A '' 1 year '' orbit clockwise would still be ''1 year'' if it was anti clockwise.

If the Universe was a ''cluster'' and not ''expanding''  , ''50 billion years'' would still be ''50 billion years''.


The expansion has no purposeful meaning to time. Simply the big bang and the distance of expansion is meaningless to ''time''.


The Universe is based on the scale of the earth relative to other bodies, but nobody on Earth could actually factually say how big the Earth is, it could be a microbe size relative to an observer.

The earth is ''big'' relative to us, the Earth is ''massive'' relative to an Ant, the Earth is an Universe relative to ''bacteria'', but all of this could be on a swab/in a box, relative to an observer. 




This is logically expands for infinity.


Now if I wanted to view something small, that was to small to observe, I would either have to shrink myself or make the smaller thing ''bigger'',  I am concerned that we , us , may be a creation of type nano-bots, and we are here trying to work out some complex problem for ''somebody else'' on a microbe scale. (really small).


We think , thats all we seem to do, well most of us.


p.s Bio-logical Neuro-bots?

« Last Edit: 06/01/2016 10:17:04 by Thebox »
 

Offline Space Flow

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I am concerned that we , us , may be a creation of type nano-bots, and we are here trying to work out some complex problem for ''somebody else'' on a microbe scale. (really small).
Douglas Adam:
It was the mice that made us. And we are not looking for an answer, that is 42.
We are looking for the question.... :)
 

Offline Bill S

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Quote from: Thebox
I do not know if all brains work at the same speed, I know sight works at the same speed as light.  I presume Neurons ''fire'' at the same speed and maybe all  brain wavelengths are the same.

Unless you knew that your presumption in the second sentence was correct, the statement: “I know sight works at the same speed as light” is meaningless.

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Time is subjective to an individual, if there was no us  or life with a brain, time would simply ''vanish'' and be immaterial , the universe does  not need time to exist, we do not need time to exist to exist, time is subjective invention in the aim of immortality. Time is no more than a measuring aid.

Time is a measure of change.  Surely you cannot be saying that there was no change in the Universe before there was consciousness to be aware of it.

 
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There can be no future to come back from, and personally i think the ancient Egyptians and their search for Elixirs of life are testament to the invention of ''why'' time.

What is “why” time?

Beyond this point in your post I am at a loss to find any relevance to the question of time travel.
 

Offline Thebox

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Time is a measure of change.  Surely you cannot be saying that there was no change in the Universe before there was consciousness to be aware of it.


What is “why” time?

Beyond this point in your post I am at a loss to find any relevance to the question of time travel.

''Time is a measure of change.''  - the change happens even if it is not measured, time is irrelevant to the change.

''Surely you cannot be saying that there was no change in the Universe before there was consciousness to be aware of it.''-  Change does not happen of the past, change is happening right now, for every word I write, is a different now, the words that proceed the words you are reading now, is history of the now. By time you read this, it is different moment to now 3pm precisely, change is the now leaving a past,



''What is “why” time?''  science often does not care about the why, why time? for what purpose was it created/invented? 

We don't need time  and the universe does not need time, events happen whether it is timed or not timed, we time, time itself is not anything,

 

Offline Bill S

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Quote from: Thebox
We don't need time  and the universe does not need time, events happen whether it is timed or not timed, we time, time itself is not anything

I think you are confusing "time" with "our concept of time".

"Time is nature's way to keep everything from happening all at once."
                                                                                       John Wheeler. 
 
 

Offline Thebox

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Quote from: Thebox
We don't need time  and the universe does not need time, events happen whether it is timed or not timed, we time, time itself is not anything

I think you are confusing "time" with "our concept of time".

"Time is nature's way to keep everything from happening all at once."
                                                                                       John Wheeler.

'timing'' is natures way of stopping all things happening at once when talking process, but all things happen in the same moment leaving a history.  My view of science is very simple, if it physically exists or has physical presence , it is a real thing, things like time are border line God theory.

« Last Edit: 07/01/2016 09:43:31 by Thebox »
 

Offline Bill S

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Quote from: Thebox
if it physically exists or has physical presence , it is a real thing

What do you mean by "physically exists"; for example, does intelligence physically exist?  Does mathematics physically exist?
 

Offline Thebox

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Quote from: Thebox
if it physically exists or has physical presence , it is a real thing

What do you mean by "physically exists"; for example, does intelligence physically exist?  Does mathematics physically exist?
''does intelligence physically exist?''  a great question Bill,, intelligence exists in us, of us, and we physically exist, but as a thing with distinct and independent existence, I do not think so.   Maths does not physically exist, maths represents things and process of physical existence.


Physically exists to me means something that can be held in the hand as such and things  including gases air, where physical presence to me means like photons, energy, magnetic forces,gravity
 

Offline Bill S

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Using your reasoning, every intelligent being experiences what we all refer to as the passage of/through time. It's what allows us to make sense of life.  Probably every mathematician works with the concept of time.  We, including mathematicians, are physical beings, and the concept of time exists in us.
 

Offline Thebox

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Using your reasoning, every intelligent being experiences what we all refer to as the passage of/through time. It's what allows us to make sense of life.  Probably every mathematician works with the concept of time.  We, including mathematicians, are physical beings, and the concept of time exists in us.

Yes the concept of time exists in us and we travel an increment of time, there is nothing to say that the experience we have is not being written has we experience it and the future does not exist based on that once we as an individual stop our experience memories and die, relative to us time stops and the future is not there.
There is no possible way to know that in ten minutes time, for the entire ten minutes from now, there is anything there because it is being written as we experience the time at the moment, moments from now might not exist, moments are an experience of now that writes the past, future is not even plausible by any logic in my opinion.



''like''  a computer simulation program that continues to write new frames that have not been written.


4 dimensions of xyz and time being us and our experience, the 5th dimension is something we do not experience, N-dimensional space.
 

Offline puppypower

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If you go back into time, this will take energy to run the machines needed for the transport. Machines can never be 100% efficient, which means that the second law will be in affect. The second law states that the entropy of the universe has to increase. The result of machine inefficiency on is to add entropy to yourself and the past, which will alter the future.

Time and entropy are uniquely similar in that both spontaneously flow in one direction. The entropy of the universe has to increase, while time has to move to the future, Since change of state are the means by which we gauge time, time has an intimate connection to entropy. Entropy constantly makes  change; increases, for a constant flow of time.

Entropy is a state function, which means any given state of matter defines a specific entropy level. The entropy of water at 1 atmosphere and 25C has a specific entropy value, that is the same no matter which lab measures it. That being said, the past defines a very specific universal state and therefore level of entropy.

In this state called the past, there was less time for the entropy of the universe to increase; it defines lower entropy. One will need tools to reverse the 2nd law to get there. Since entropy is a state variable, this is theoretically possible, since all we need is energy and clever machines to form the other state. But as we add energy and tools to work the past landscape, since nothing is 100% efficient, we will add entropy and alter the past.

Also since entropy is lowering to the past, this will catalyze an exothermic energy pulse that release the energy in the entropy of the present. Now you need to develop containment for yourself, so this energy does not add entropy to you; you become atomized. Although, sci-fi often uses this atomization entropy and then reassembles in the past.
 
Say you wish to go from the past, back to the future, to share the data, this change of state requires a huge entropy increase, proportional to the amount of landscape we had altered. This will take a huge amount of energy, to define the entropy increase. Where does this huge source of energy come from in the past, where such technology is not available? Now we need to transport the entire lab, which sort of stands out like a sore thumb, thereby altering the past.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Physically exists to me means something that can be held in the hand as such and things  including gases air, where physical presence to me means like photons, energy, magnetic forces,gravity

If I write down a mathematical equation I can then hold it, via the piece of paper, in my hand. Therefore proving that mathematics has a physical existence.
 

Offline Thebox

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Physically exists to me means something that can be held in the hand as such and things  including gases air, where physical presence to me means like photons, energy, magnetic forces,gravity

If I write down a mathematical equation I can then hold it, via the piece of paper, in my hand. Therefore proving that mathematics has a physical existence.
Lol nice try, the paper exists, the ink from the pen or carbon from the pencil exists, the equation you write is simply a formation of the carbon/ink onto the paper.
 

Offline evan_au

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Continuing the thought experiments with absolutely no evidence on which to base our guesses...
Quote from: theBox
I am defining a moment as precisely ''how fast the brain works''
Experiments have shown that the brain takes about 100ms to process images.
(I exclude the reported 13ms to recognize images, since this is more of a pipelining rate, rather than an elapsed time).

Quote from: TheBox
I presume Neurons ''fire'' at the same speed
There appears to be some effect due to the myelin (insulation on axons), which determines how fast nerve pulses travel.

Quote from: Puppypower
If you go back into time, this will take energy to run the machines needed for the transport. ...The result of machine inefficiency on is to add entropy to yourself and the past, which will alter the future.
I don't think that the entropy of energy would strictly forbid time travel.

If it takes (say) 10 GigaJoules to transport someone back in time, that energy must come from somewhere: perhaps Solar power, burning coal, or nuclear fusion. But that is all energy (entropy) generated at the "future" end of the trip. It does not require that this energy be drawn from the "past" end of the trip.

So I suggest that if time travel is possible, it will certainly affect the entropy past the "future" end of the trip, but need not necessarily affect entropy immediately past the "past" end of the trip.

This energy pales into insignificance if you consider the energy equivalent of an Arnold Schwarznegger (even without clothes). But what if you swapped the same mass from the past into the future, to balance the mass/energy of the universe?

The entropy of information is another thing entirely. Taking back a book of football statistics does transfer information into the past.
 

Offline puppypower

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Material entropy and information entropy are different. In the chemistry of materials, entropy is a state function, which means a given state of matter will define a given value of entropy. An entropy increase will result in a new state. If water goes from 25C to 26C we have a new state with a new entropy value, that all labs will measure as being the same.

With digital information, this information is not a state function, but rather increases in entropy will create noise and loss and not a unique new state. If we ran an experiment over and over with computer memory, the same amount of entropy will always lead to a different loss or noise.

The brain's function is based on the interaction of chemicals and chemical structures in water, therefore its information is based on material states. The result is an entropy increase is not necessary noise or loss, but can result into change into a new chemical state of information.

The reason this is so is our brain evolved from basic chemicals which are define by states. These built up into higher and higher states that are connected and integrated. Unlike digital information which humans have assigned priority through convention and logic, the brain assigns information priority via chemical states. This allows for collective human propensity; things that are the same for all. It also allows entropy to add up to useful change. In evolution, the entropy in mutations and natural selection, allows entropy to become useful.

In digital storage media, we have a uniform semi-conductor material on which are many binary switches. Since all these switches are the same, changes in entropy among all the chemical switches; new chemical state, does not necessarily equate to the information priority. The switch on the far left does not define the placement of very specific information, so these state changes can add up to something useful. Rather the information comes first and can be placed anywhere.

If we flip the binary switches with some type of chemical state order, but without any logical connection between the chemicals and the binary information, we get loss and noise. With the brain, chemical states are how the hierarchy of memory is laid out. This allows life to benefit by entropy and use it for useful change. There is no waste, since even noise is something that the brain can learn from; new state.

Future digital media might benefit by watching how blank media changes with entropy, and then use this for information placement. For example, put all the switches on; higher energy, and then watch as they randomly flip back to lower energy. This will tell us the new states of higher entropy. Next, information hierarchy will be designed to roll with these punches, so the new state is a new state of information. This is easier said than done.
 

Offline Thebox

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Material entropy and information entropy are different. In the chemistry of materials, entropy is a state function, which means a given state of matter will define a given value of entropy. An entropy increase will result in a new state. If water goes from 25C to 26C we have a new state with a new entropy value, that all labs will measure as being the same.



Not quite in my opinion, entropy is the volume/amount of a system,the total amount of energy a system can contain, systems have an equilibrium entropy like a ''capacitor''/battery.    A system releases energy equal to gain, but if the system is exposed to a higher magnitude of energy, the system can't release the energy fast enough so the system alters, becomes an unstable state .

Imagine a finite space, that was contained in a imaginary boundary, like a ''balloon'', the more + energy you add to the volume of space contained, the more the space expands, positive repelling positive, remove the energy increase and the space then contracts, - attracted to -.


Makes sense to me if nobody else.
 

Offline Noah Håkansson

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The fact that you can only travel forwards in time and not backwards.
 

Offline Bill S

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Hi Noah, thanks for bringing the thread down to earth, and, perhaps, back on topic.

At this point, I think it would be good to hear from Memoryerase1, just to see if his/her original question has been addressed. 
 

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