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Author Topic: Every moment in time is the same moment!  (Read 3377 times)

Offline Thebox

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #25 on: 20/01/2016 14:11:56 »


Also, your idea that anything more than zero is history is correct, but so evidently correct to be uninteresting beyond belief. That may be why nobody really cares. Just my 2 cents.

Nobody cares , exactly, not uninteresting, it changes a lot of things and gives a complete new view, but there is no interest like you say, why no  interest?  there is a fine line between logic and paranoia, hence the end of the world thread in main. 


It is illogical to ignore, so if something is illogical then there must be another logic hampering the logic and making the avoidance.

I do not think science own's science, I think religion owns science, religion won the wars of religion, then it all went quiet.    So surely the victors are still in-charge of everything if they were never overthrown.



« Last Edit: 20/01/2016 14:15:16 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #26 on: 20/01/2016 15:16:16 »
The point Sam7 is making is that this is so obvious that it is taken as given and really doesn't make any difference to science.
Science measures the time between events and uses this info in the same way distance is used. This is a very useful process. We can use history to predict the future - if an object has been falling for 10s, if nothing changes its fall we can predict where it will be in another 10s. Time like distance has a consistency at low relative speeds.

People may just have got tired of entering into another pointless discussion full of misunderstandings about basic science.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #27 on: 20/01/2016 15:27:39 »
The point Sam7 is making is that this is so obvious that it is taken as given and really doesn't make any difference to science.
Science measures the time between events and uses this info in the same way distance is used. This is a very useful process. We can use history to predict the future - if an object has been falling for 10s, if nothing changes its fall we can predict where it will be in another 10s. Time like distance has a consistency at low relative speeds.

People may just have got tired of entering into another pointless discussion full of misunderstandings about basic science.

I have no misunderstanding, all of you who have replied have agreed I am correct, you say it is irrelevant, when it clearly is a strict definition and an axiom .

Science says that time dilates, science is clearly lying by your own admittances. Einstein's things are based on time, so you are telling me that science uses imaginary to make up imaginary and that is in anyway good science?

I am afraid most of your science, is Psuedo-science, based on none strict definitions.

It is so obvious yet science defends the Caesium atom dilation has a fact of a change in time, time travel and all sorts based on this lie.


May I suggest science needs to sort its fairy tales out....concentrate their budget on worthy things rather than fairy tales.







« Last Edit: 20/01/2016 15:32:18 by Thebox »
 

Offline Alohascope

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #28 on: 20/01/2016 23:12:34 »
The past is now. 
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #29 on: 22/01/2016 04:54:32 »
The past is now.
It takes 1000's of light years to travel a straight line, but the mind see's the end point  in the instant of now.
 

Offline Alohascope

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #30 on: 23/01/2016 02:08:07 »

energy variance at a guess , just like light and most things have a variance.

I think this is where I get off Mr. Box. The speed of light has been accepted by every physicist the world over as the one thing that is invariant. It remains the same in all frames of reference whether in varied degrees of motion or in varied degrees of gravitational influence. I therefore leave it to someone else to sort out the errors you evidently don't yet understand.

Not true .. and Einstein never said it was invariant .. he said, 'For this purpose we shall assume it does not vary ...'  I can't find the quote, but he was fond of saying, "For this purpose ..."  Examples shown on
http://www.bing.com/search?q=Einstein%3A%20for%20this%20purpose%20we%20shall%20assume%20the%20speed%20of%20light&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=einstein%3A%20for%20this%20purpose%20we%20shall%20assume%20the%20speed%20of%20light&sc=0-42&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=A848E85DA2F84E01A47442EB4A4C823F.

Also .. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/speed-light-not-so-constant-after-all .
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #31 on: 23/01/2016 03:32:28 »


Not true .. and Einstein never said it was invariant ..

In the proper vacuum of space, c is most certainly invariant. And as I was addressing Mr. Box about his flawed view of time and space, the wise member should have recognized the context to which I was responding. I think most of the individuals involved in this thread quite understood why I made the statement about the invariance of c. Welcome to my ignore list..............Mr. Aloha........
« Last Edit: 23/01/2016 03:44:29 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #32 on: 23/01/2016 19:00:07 »


Not true .. and Einstein never said it was invariant ..

In the proper vacuum of space, c is most certainly invariant. And as I was addressing Mr. Box about his flawed view of time and space, the wise member should have recognized the context to which I was responding. I think most of the individuals involved in this thread quite understood why I made the statement about the invariance of c. Welcome to my ignore list..............Mr. Aloha........


My ideas revolve around the fact that the speed of light is constant and invariant in a vacuum, without this I would of never considered the clarity of space was also an invariant while light is present.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #33 on: 23/01/2016 22:09:22 »



My ideas revolve around the fact that the speed of light is constant and invariant in a vacuum, without this I would of never considered the clarity of space was also an invariant while light is present.
In this case, I must confess to misunderstanding your position on these issues. Could you try to explain yourself a little better and start with my first question:

Are you saying that not only is the past and future irrelevant, but that they don't physically exist?

Let's take this slow Mr.Box, I want to give you every chance to really explain yourself. Try to answer my questions as briefly as possible and be as direct to the point as possible. When you've answered, I'll do my best to absorb the points your making and give them the scrutiny they deserve. If you're not willing to answer these questions and try to skirt around them with half answers and diversions, I'll exit this thread promptly and I promise I won't be back.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #34 on: 24/01/2016 07:07:35 »




Are you saying that not only is the past and future irrelevant, but that they don't physically exist?


Thank you for your time, I now know you are genuine and will give it my 100% effort in answering your questions

''Are you saying that not only is the past and future irrelevant, but that they don't physically exist?''

I can not say if the past or the future is irrelevant or relevant , because it would be an impossibility to know if they really physically exist. 
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #35 on: 24/01/2016 14:30:57 »


I can not say if the past or the future is irrelevant or relevant , because it would be an impossibility to know if they really physically exist. 
Let's establish one important fact about the search for truth. Proving anything is something science rarely achieves. In my estimation, the only thing science can effectively prove is that change occurs in nature. In quantum mechanics, we've learned not to predict exact outcomes, we call that scientific philosophy: The science of probabilities."

I'm not asking you for proof my friend. The truth is, none of us can prove anything to another if they are unwilling to first believe the evidence. That being said, what I believe or what you believe is based upon the mental picture of how probable our speculations line up with our observations. Even Einstein began his work on Relativity using mental pictures and the calculations came later.

Unless you can identify what you believe about this question, whether you can prove it or not, our combined scrutiny will get us nowhere. So, I'll ask you one more time, "does the past and future exist in our physical reality?"





« Last Edit: 24/01/2016 14:37:39 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #36 on: 24/01/2016 15:02:40 »


I can not say if the past or the future is irrelevant or relevant , because it would be an impossibility to know if they really physically exist. 
Let's establish one important fact about the search for truth. Proving anything is something science rarely achieves. In my estimation, the only thing science can effectively prove is that change occurs in nature. In quantum mechanics, we've learned not to predict exact outcomes, we call that scientific philosophy: The science of probabilities."

I'm not asking you for proof my friend. The truth is, none of us can prove anything to another if they are unwilling to first believe the evidence. That being said, what I believe or what you believe is based upon the mental picture of how probable our speculations line up with our observations. Even Einstein began his work on Relativity using mental pictures and the calculations came later.

Unless you can identify what you believe about this question, whether you can prove it or not, our combined scrutiny will get us nowhere. So, I'll ask you one more time, "does the past and future exist in our physical reality?"


Relatively the past and future exists simultaneously in the now is my answer.

Would you like me to explain more relatively why this is relativity?

« Last Edit: 24/01/2016 15:06:46 by Thebox »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #37 on: 24/01/2016 15:26:42 »



Relatively the past and future exists simultaneously in the now is my answer.

Would you like me to explain more relatively why this is relativity?
Not so fast my friend, as I said before let's proceed slowly so we both have a chance to absorb these thoughts.

Another question: If the past and future exist simultaneously, how do you explain "change"? For change to occur, things are different now from what they were. If the past and future exist instantly together, "simultaneously", it seems to me nothing would ever change.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #38 on: 24/01/2016 15:41:21 »



Relatively the past and future exists simultaneously in the now is my answer.

Would you like me to explain more relatively why this is relativity?
Not so fast my friend, as I said before let's proceed slowly so we both have a chance to absorb these thoughts.

Another question: If the past and future exist simultaneously, how do you explain "change"? For change to occur, things are different now from what they were. If the past and future exist instantly together, "simultaneously", it seems to me nothing would ever change.

,'' things are different now from what they were''

what they were is a memory of now of  what they were. 


Consider this , you are travelling vector X . behind you is the past of the journey, in front of you is the future of your journey, but in front of you or behind you , you can observe the now through the constant-'constant.




« Last Edit: 24/01/2016 16:04:42 by Thebox »
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #39 on: 25/01/2016 01:31:25 »

,'' things are different now from what they were''

what they were is a memory of now of  what they were. 

You'll have to forgive me Mr. Box, something tells me we're not speaking the same language because that last sentence makes absolutely no sense to me.

Nevertheless, I do have a couple things to say about time that you may find interesting. Let's preform a thought experiment................

An astronaut is on a space craft traveling at c, I realize that's impossible but please just bare with me. He starts his trip just after the big bang and travels along with the expanding universe to some point in the far future where some theories suggests that a heat death has just finished it's epoch end. For the traveler in the ship, he realizes no passage of time, one moment the big bang has taken place and the next, everything has come to a very cold end. For him, there has been no passage of time. His past, present, and future are all rolled up into a very brief instant. This is a result of his velocity and the time dilation that's involved with that frame of reference. Within this same universe, we provide a fictional character that was born at the moment the big bang commenced and has lived until that same hypothetical heat death also occurs. We now arrange to have both men meet and ask them to tell us of their experiences. The astronaut will exclaim; "I just got here, I have no story to tell." On the other hand, our very long lived fictional man will exclaim; "Boy!! you sure have missed at lot of things."

Time dilation is a fact my friend, if you continue to seek to eliminate it from your scientific model, you're going to experience a great deal of grief when discussing this phenomenon with other members of this forum. Take my advice and consider that when everyone else understands things a little different than you do, it is very likely that you may be in error.

Whether you're in error or not, it has become very clear to me that no one here has yet been able to understand precisely what you're trying to explain and that includes myself as well.

I gave it a try Mr. Box but I think we're spinning our wheels here. Sorry,... but I'm ready to move on. Please don't take offense my friend, let's just agree to disagree...........................
« Last Edit: 25/01/2016 01:45:49 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #40 on: 25/01/2016 02:57:58 »

,'' things are different now from what they were''

what they were is a memory of now of  what they were. 

You'll have to forgive me Mr. Box, something tells me we're not speaking the same language because that last sentence makes absolutely no sense to me.

Nevertheless, I do have a couple things to say about time that you may find interesting. Let's preform a thought experiment................

An astronaut is on a space craft traveling at c, I realize that's impossible but please just bare with me. He starts his trip just after the big bang and travels along with the expanding universe to some point in the far future where some theories suggests that a heat death has just finished it's epoch end. For the traveler in the ship, he realizes no passage of time, one moment the big bang has taken place and the next, everything has come to a very cold end. For him, there has been no passage of time. His past, present, and future are all rolled up into a very brief instant. This is a result of his velocity and the time dilation that's involved with that frame of reference. Within this same universe, we provide a fictional character that was born at the moment the big bang commenced and has lived until that same hypothetical heat death also occurs. We now arrange to have both men meet and ask them to tell us of their experiences. The astronaut will exclaim; "I just got here, I have no story to tell." On the other hand, our very long lived fictional man will exclaim; "Boy!! you sure have missed at lot of things."

Time dilation is a fact my friend, if you continue to seek to eliminate it from your scientific model, you're going to experience a great deal of grief when discussing this phenomenon with other members of this forum. Take my advice and consider that when everyone else understands things a little different than you do, it is very likely that you may be in error.

Whether you're in error or not, it has become very clear to me that no one here has yet been able to understand precisely what you're trying to explain and that includes myself as well.

I gave it a try Mr. Box but I think we're spinning our wheels here. Sorry,... but I'm ready to move on. Please don't take offense my friend, let's just agree to disagree...........................

Yes there is no problem in agreeing to disagree, I am not here to dictate to anyone, I really appreciate the conversation. 

I also am certain that people here like everywhere are failing to understand.  My close and personal friends understand my ideas which is strange.


But yes if you wish to move on, no problem.
 

Offline sam7

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #41 on: 25/01/2016 08:27:37 »
Like minds attract. Nothing strange about that.
 

Offline Ethos_

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #42 on: 25/01/2016 23:15:23 »
Like minds attract. Nothing strange about that.
Was that a lame attempt at insult or a failed effort to impress us?
« Last Edit: 26/01/2016 00:09:43 by Ethos_ »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #43 on: 25/01/2016 23:29:52 »
Like minds attract. Nothing strange about that.
Was that a lame attempt at insult or a worthless effort to impress us?
A  lame attempt at an insult, I have friends in all walks of life, some friends would be considered clever, such as my younger Nephew who is at University studying and doing computer programming/writing software.


 

Offline Alohascope

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #44 on: 26/01/2016 02:42:42 »
Google:  Is the speed of light in a vacuum invariant?  You will see several choices but the top choice 'Is The Speed of Light Everywhere the Same? - Ucr'  is interesting. 
Now .. enter Does a photon have mass?  Choose 'What is the mass of a photon? - Ucr'
Iff a photon has mass, which it is said to have, it will be affected by gravity, however slightly .. so it's speed will vary in a vacuum.
 

Offline sam7

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #45 on: 26/01/2016 07:47:31 »
Like minds attract. Nothing strange about that.
Was that a lame attempt at insult or a failed effort to impress us?

Well I certainly wasn't trying to impress anybody.

What I was saying is that TheBox seems to enjoy spewing ridiculous sentences with garbled terminology that 'sounds good' in order to come across to the layman as an expert in the field. He is not a genius or an expert. If what he says was logical and made sense, I would not have a problem with him. However, he spams these Cambridge-based forums like nobody's business and always has an opinion no matter how incorrect or self-serving towards his own ideas. I remember a while ago he said he was going to make his last post, but here he is so clearly that was just a bid for attention/validation.

No matter how many times we tell him he is barking up the wrong tree with something he insists that he is right and everybody else is wrong. It's clearly some kind of superiority/ inability to to adapt to new ideas. Everything that a scientist should not be.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #46 on: 26/01/2016 08:55:26 »
Like minds attract. Nothing strange about that.
Was that a lame attempt at insult or a failed effort to impress us?

Well I certainly wasn't trying to impress anybody.

What I was saying is that TheBox seems to enjoy spewing ridiculous sentences with garbled terminology that 'sounds good' in order to come across to the layman as an expert in the field. He is not a genius or an expert. If what he says was logical and made sense, I would not have a problem with him. However, he spams these Cambridge-based forums like nobody's business and always has an opinion no matter how incorrect or self-serving towards his own ideas. I remember a while ago he said he was going to make his last post, but here he is so clearly that was just a bid for attention/validation.

No matter how many times we tell him he is barking up the wrong tree with something he insists that he is right and everybody else is wrong. It's clearly some kind of superiority/ inability to to adapt to new ideas. Everything that a scientist should not be.

Clearly a flamer trying to disrupt a very nice conversation myself and other members are discussing.
Trying to sound clever?   not at all, trying to convey ideas in the language terminology of science which is not easy at times.   

Spamming the forum?  my ideas have no limit my mind is limitless, I like to talk and you have no right to criticise of what I like doing with my time.


''spewing ridiculous sentences ''  you are spewing an entire post with none science related flaming.

Clearly one of the bully type members from another forum who has crossed over to here, this is a good forum, they will not tolerate you if you come here like this, try joining in the discussion, let us hear your wisdom?
People like myself feel protected here from people like you.


'' I remember a while ago he said he was going to make his last post, but here he is so clearly that was just a bid for attention/validation.''

That is called turmoil , is it worth me persisting I ask myself, the answer , yes because I am determined and persistent.

« Last Edit: 26/01/2016 09:11:49 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #47 on: 26/01/2016 13:49:47 »
Google:  Is the speed of light in a vacuum invariant?  You will see several choices but the top choice 'Is The Speed of Light Everywhere the Same? - Ucr'  is interesting. 
Now .. enter Does a photon have mass?  Choose 'What is the mass of a photon? - Ucr'
Iff a photon has mass, which it is said to have, it will be affected by gravity, however slightly .. so it's speed will vary in a vacuum.
As I understand it a photon is considered to have 0 rest mass. However, it does have momentum (p=mv) and anything with momentum will be affected by gravity.
The complication is that no matter what gravity field you are in you will measure the speed of light to be the same, but someone else in a different gravity field will measure the speed of light at your location to be different. One way of looking at this is that gravity distorts spacetime and so the coordinates you are using for measurement are not the same as those used by the other person.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #48 on: 26/01/2016 13:55:39 »
Google:  Is the speed of light in a vacuum invariant?  You will see several choices but the top choice 'Is The Speed of Light Everywhere the Same? - Ucr'  is interesting. 
Now .. enter Does a photon have mass?  Choose 'What is the mass of a photon? - Ucr'
Iff a photon has mass, which it is said to have, it will be affected by gravity, however slightly .. so it's speed will vary in a vacuum.
As I understand it a photon is considered to have 0 rest mass. However, it does have momentum (p=mv) and anything with momentum will be affected by gravity.
The complication is that no matter what gravity field you are in you will measure the speed of light to be the same, but someone else in a different gravity field will measure the speed of light at your location to be different. One way of looking at this is that gravity distorts spacetime and so the coordinates you are using for measurement are not the same as those used by the other person.

gravity distorts spacetime or space-time distorts gravity?





 

Offline sam7

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
« Reply #49 on: 26/01/2016 14:06:04 »
I would like to apologize for my previous comments. They were mean and unnecessary.

 

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Re: Every moment in time is the same moment!
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