# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Repulsive particles and torque  (Read 731 times)

#### LB7

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##### Repulsive particles and torque
« on: 11/01/2016 18:22:24 »
In a disk, I place N theoretical particles. These particles have the same sign, so they repulse themselves with the law 1/dē with 'd' the distance. There is no particle outside the disk. If I place in the disk an asymmetrical object in rotation in the center of the disk, why the object don't accelerate more and more in one direction and the particles accelerate in the other direction ? The object has no particle inside. For me the asymmetric shape will give a torque in one direction to the object and the particles must receive the torque in the other direction.

« Last Edit: 11/01/2016 18:24:20 by LB7 »

#### Thebox

• Neilep Level Member
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##### Re: Repulsive particles and torque
« Reply #1 on: 12/01/2016 00:24:50 »
In a disk,
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do you mean on a disk?  if not and you do mean in a disk , do you mean a flat circle formation?

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I place N theoretical particles.
I presume you mean a random number of particles?

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These particles have the same sign,

Public toilets?  This way up? or do you mean they all have equal polarity signs of positive?

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so they repulse themselves with the law 1/dē with 'd' the distance.

They  would repel themselves according to magnitude of the positive charge, I do not know where you are getting 1/dē from.

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There is no particle outside the disk.

But they may repel each other out of the disk, so they may be particles outside of the disk.

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If I place in the disk an asymmetrical object in rotation in the center of the disk, why the object don't accelerate more and more in one direction and the particles accelerate in the other direction ? The object has no particle inside. For me the asymmetric shape will give a torque in one direction to the object and the particles must receive the torque in the other direction.

I got lost here in understanding you .

#### LB7

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• Posts: 41
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##### Re: Repulsive particles and torque
« Reply #2 on: 12/01/2016 09:59:09 »
In a disk,
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do you mean on a disk?  if not and you do mean in a disk , do you mean a flat circle formation?

Yes, a flat circle (2 dimensions), it's easier than a disk. Outside the circle there is no particle. Inside the circle there are particles. Inside the object there is no particle.

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I place N theoretical particles.
I presume you mean a random number of particles?

Yes, a random number, for example I can place 1000 in a circle with a radius of 10 cm

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These particles have the same sign,

Public toilets?  This way up? or do you mean they all have equal polarity signs of positive?

Equal polarity signs (positive for example)

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so they repulse themselves with the law 1/dē with 'd' the distance.

They  would repel themselves according to magnitude of the positive charge, I do not know where you are getting 1/dē from.

I use the law of electrostatic for example 1/dē or something like k/dē

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There is no particle outside the disk.

But they may repel each other out of the disk, so they may be particles outside of the disk.

No, there is no particle outside, it's a theoretical problem

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If I place in the disk an asymmetrical object in rotation in the center of the disk, why the object don't accelerate more and more in one direction and the particles accelerate in the other direction ? The object has no particle inside. For me the asymmetric shape will give a torque in one direction to the object and the particles must receive the torque in the other direction.

I got lost here in understanding you .

If the object is asymmetrical and the friction on the walls are not the same, why the torque on the object would be at 0 ? The walls of the object don't have an electrostatic charge so a lot of particles will be in contact with the walls of the object and push the object in a lot of directions. With the friction and the shape the torque is changed so for me the object would have a net torque in one direction and the charges will have the same torque in the other direction. But maybe someone had done the calculations and prove there is no torque ?
« Last Edit: 12/01/2016 10:03:09 by LB7 »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Repulsive particles and torque
« Reply #3 on: 12/01/2016 17:59:28 »

If the object is asymmetrical and the friction on the walls are not the same, why the torque on the object would be at 0 ? The walls of the object don't have an electrostatic charge so a lot of particles will be in contact with the walls of the object and push the object in a lot of directions. With the friction and the shape the torque is changed so for me the object would have a net torque in one direction and the charges will have the same torque in the other direction. But maybe someone had done the calculations and prove there is no torque ?

I am trying to understand you but sorry your wording is not helping,

I think you are saying , imagine a vacuum packed full of positive ion's, the positive ion's repel positive ions's in the ''chamber''.  In the centre of this chamber is an odd shape that is negative and the particles apply a torque on the odd shape making it move?

If that is the case, what do you suggest a negative only mass is?   surely the negative mass absorbs the energy of the positive ion,s creating equilibrium of the entirety of the volume?

Positive ion's repelling positive ion's causes expansion not centripetal acceleration/rotation. Where is your rotational velocity coming from?

« Last Edit: 12/01/2016 18:04:11 by Thebox »

#### Space Flow

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##### Re: Repulsive particles and torque
« Reply #4 on: 12/01/2016 23:22:12 »
I think the problem here is that you are setting up a thought experiment with parameters that can not exist in any natural system and attempting to apply the laws of nature to it.
What you are describing can not exist in this Universe so can not be analyzed by this Universe's laws of nature.
Either that or you have to explain it better.

#### LB7

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##### Re: Repulsive particles and torque
« Reply #5 on: 13/01/2016 11:13:18 »
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I am trying to understand you but sorry your wording is not helping,

sorry, I'm not fluently in english

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I think you are saying , imagine a vacuum packed full of positive ion's, the positive ion's repel positive ions's in the ''chamber''.  In the centre of this chamber is an odd shape that is negative and the particles apply a torque on the odd shape making it move?

The object inside the circle has no charge, not negative nor positive, the particles push the object because the object has walls but I imagine the wall without a charge. Inside the object there is no charge and no particle.

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If that is the case, what do you suggest a negative only mass is?   surely the negative mass absorbs the energy of the positive ion,s creating equilibrium of the entirety of the volume?

I don't understand the problem with mass but I try to imagine a theoretical problem : 1000 positive particles in a circle of 10 cm of radius with an asymmetrical shape inside that can rotate around the center of the circle. The asymmetrical shape has no charge inside or on the walls.

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Positive ion's repelling positive ion's causes expansion not centripetal acceleration/rotation. Where is your rotational velocity coming from?

For me, due to the asymmetrical shape and the difference of friction on the walls the sum of each small torque from each particle is not at 0, sure it's only my intuition...

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I think the problem here is that you are setting up a thought experiment with parameters that can not exist in any natural system and attempting to apply the laws of nature to it.
What you are describing can not exist in this Universe so can not be analyzed by this Universe's laws of nature.
Either that or you have to explain it better.

This case don't exist in this Universe, but why it's not possible to imagine it and do calculations to find something new ? I use the law of k/dē but it's possible to use any formula. For me, it's very strange that the torque on the object could be at 0 and like the recipient (the circle) is symmetric if the torque on the object is not 0, it is not 0 all the time.

Maybe it's possible to imagine a macroscopic device, N electrostatic positive balls, a disk and the asymmetrical shape but with a macroscopic device it's more difficult to calculate or simulate because each object has a volume, with a particle it's possible to calculate each particle like a point.
« Last Edit: 13/01/2016 11:16:25 by LB7 »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Repulsive particles and torque
« Reply #6 on: 13/01/2016 13:05:07 »

problem 1 - there will be no rotation of the particles inside the circle.

problem 2 - positive ions repel positive ions and expand, the particles which would have to be charged particles will cause expansion and a pressure that centripetally forces the centre object object to be pressured to the centre and make the object remain stationary.
Also the outer wall of the circle containment will be pressured.

I suggest moving on with something else, this idea is a none starter.

#### LB7

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##### Re: Repulsive particles and torque
« Reply #7 on: 22/01/2016 12:29:04 »
Without calculations it's difficult to affirm "yes" or "no". It's not possible to apply the Noether's theorem. I don't know how to calculate a device like that. I could do some simulations but a simulation is not a mathematical calculation. The asymmetric friction on the wall of the object change the torque I think:

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http://s24.postimg.org/oxbrmgjs5/df1.png [nofollow]

Note the wall with the friction 'y': the force from friction could give a torque on the red object, in the contrary, the wall with the friction 'x': the force from friction can't give a torque on the red object.

Like I drawn the inner circle is empty but if the inner circle (2D) is full with repulsive particles (with the same sign than the others particles) the density of inner particles will be higher near the empty object. Like that the inner particle turn in one direction, the outer particles turn in the other direction and with the good friction and the good shape for the empty object it's possible to have the same direction of rotation than the inner particles.
« Last Edit: 23/01/2016 12:22:37 by LB7 »

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Repulsive particles and torque
« Reply #7 on: 22/01/2016 12:29:04 »