The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: What is the rate of future time?  (Read 5112 times)

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3164
  • Thanked: 47 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #25 on: 24/01/2016 23:52:14 »

You don't see the future, but you can see where you are going. That allows you to predict where and when you will be in the future and avoid bumping into things.


Your not predicting anything, you observe the distant future.  Relative to a stationary observer they are in the now and can see into there own future if they was to travel a linearity clear path over distance.

Consider Newtons Laws, a body in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by external forces, so now consider that a journey into the ''future'', your path is destined unless external acting force acts on your journey.

So a body in motion following a linear path the body w ill remain synchronised to its future fate.  To say the future is quite ''clear''(constant-'constant), explains space and velocity and prediction.


constant-'constant is the key to the unification of the Universe, it may be obvious but it has obviously been overlooked because of its simplicity, however it is everything that makes relativity.



« Last Edit: 24/01/2016 23:57:34 by Thebox »
 

Offline Space Flow

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
  • Thanked: 31 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #26 on: 24/01/2016 23:58:29 »
Why do I keep getting trapped in these ridiculous non logical posts?
I would have assumed that being a member of the supposedly clever monkeys, I would learn from experience and just stay away.

Is there any way to stop getting notifications about a post once you have made a comment?
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3164
  • Thanked: 47 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #27 on: 25/01/2016 00:03:56 »
Why do I keep getting trapped in these ridiculous non logical posts?
I would have assumed that being a member of the supposedly clever monkeys, I would learn from experience and just stay away.

Is there any way to stop getting notifications about a post once you have made a comment?

Where do you get your none logical from?  it is axiom things, not even logic, self evidently true.


Can you or can you not see distant objects?

If you was to travel to the object that would take time to get there and be in your future when you arrived at the object?

So therefore simple axioms show us that we see the distance object in the now and also in a future relative to velocity.





 

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
  • Thanked: 125 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #28 on: 25/01/2016 00:13:04 »
Why do I keep getting trapped in these ridiculous non logical posts?
I would have assumed that being a member of the supposedly clever monkeys, I would learn from experience and just stay away.

Is there any way to stop getting notifications about a post once you have made a comment?
Yes, go to the button where you enabled notify you will see it now says unnotify (or some such)

Why do we get hooked, that's a whole new thread or two :)
Maybe it's hope?
 

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
  • Thanked: 125 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #29 on: 25/01/2016 00:20:06 »

Can you or can you not see distant objects?
I refuse to answer on the grounds you may try to incriminate me.

If you was to travel to the object that would take time to get there and be in your future when you arrived at the object?
When you arrived it would be your present, and the travelling would be in your past.
Unless you are Dr Who of course!
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3164
  • Thanked: 47 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #30 on: 25/01/2016 00:32:04 »


When you arrived it would be your present, and the travelling would be in your past.
Unless you are Dr Who of course!

Yes exactly, when the now of you moves closer to the object, the now of the object moves closer to you, eventually the now's merge when the destination is reached.


The Journey space behind you is the past but if you was making a round trip, the past behind you is now the future trip again.


 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3164
  • Thanked: 47 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #31 on: 25/01/2016 03:47:37 »
Huh?  if you are travelling a journey, let us say you are going to the moon, it takes an amount of ''time'' to get there, you can see the moon, technically you can see your future ahead of you.
You don't see the future, but you can see where you are going. That allows you to predict where and when you will be in the future and avoid bumping into things.


Let us imagine an absolute stationary reference frame and an object (A) in this frame, now let us define that the now/ time, only moves forward relative to this object, we shall set a rate of 1 second of increment of time for a time reference point of the history.
 
 
With our measurement increment  rate we record 24 hours of history 86400 seconds.
 
Distance travelled 0 mile
 
time observed 24 hours
 
 
Now let us imagine an identical reference frame {b} that was divided from (A) by space (d)
 
Let us set the rate of time identical to (A)
 
We can imply t(A)∥ t(b} and is synchronous
 
 
Now let us imagine that  (d) =299792458m between (A) and (b}
 
Let us define that c (the speed of light) is an invariant and a constant speed over (d) 
 
Let us define that (c1) takes 1 second to travel from (A) to (b}
 
Let is define that (c2) takes 1 second to travel from (b} to (A)
 
We can imply that c1∥ c2 and is synchronous.
 
so we can imply  t(A)∥ t(b}∥ c1∥ c2
 
Now let us consider motion, let us leave reference frame (A) stationary, let us rotate reference point (b} 360 degrees around reference point (A) several times keeping radius =299792458 m
 
Let us define a new rate of time for reference point (b] , let us call it 1 second but it was a shorter increment than the original 1 second of time, A slower time rate than {A}
 
let us now define that (a) ≠ {b] and is no longer synchronous
 
However the synchronous of space-time remains true,
 
 
c1∥ c2 and remains synchronous regardless of b's variant showing no time dilation.





added- I got it, your clock is out of synch because the earth is not a perfect sphere,

the distance changes meaning more or less time to the ground for the light.
« Last Edit: 25/01/2016 04:08:47 by Thebox »
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4726
  • Thanked: 155 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #32 on: 25/01/2016 06:46:12 »
"1 second" cannot be a rate. The dimension of rate is T-1. One second is a measurement in dimension T.

You are strongly advised not to take flight until you have started the engine. Learn the fundamentals before inviting passegers on a journey into the unknown.
 

Offline alysdexia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 121
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #33 on: 25/01/2016 07:01:16 »
effects -> affects
travel -> go

The object could change at any time.
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3164
  • Thanked: 47 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #34 on: 25/01/2016 07:32:26 »
"1 second" cannot be a rate. The dimension of rate is T-1. One second is a measurement in dimension T.

You are strongly advised not to take flight until you have started the engine. Learn the fundamentals before inviting passegers on a journey into the unknown.

huuh?


''noun
1.
a measure, quantity, or frequency, typically one measured against another quantity or measure.''

verb
1.
assign a standard or value to (something) according to a particular scale.''


You use a rate of the caesium atom to define 1 second, d/t is a rate
« Last Edit: 25/01/2016 07:45:07 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
  • Thanked: 125 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #35 on: 25/01/2016 07:59:17 »
You use a rate of the caesium atom to define 1 second, d/t is a rate
That doesn't make the second a rate.
One second is the time that elapses while the 9,192,631,770 cycles are counted, they are just a very accurate timer.
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3164
  • Thanked: 47 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #36 on: 25/01/2016 08:07:22 »
You use a rate of the caesium atom to define 1 second, d/t is a rate
That doesn't make the second a rate.
One second is the time that elapses while the 9,192,631,770 cycles are counted, they are just a very accurate timer.

No it is not,

''Prior to 1964 the international standard second had been based upon the orbital period of the Earth, but the cesium clock period was found to be much more stable than the Earth's orbit! The SI unit of time, the second, is now defined by this transition in cesium.''

And is the amount of cycles per second measured originally by 1 second on a clock.


'


look at this way


 9,192,631,770 cycles in 1 second

 8,192,631,770 cycles in 1 second

so how can the cycle rate affect a 1 second period?

1 second is one second and can not change,

1 second is equal to 0.277 mile at 1035 mph, anything else is a scaling from this.

Time is a continuous constant rate, to measure time it has to be measured by using a constant rate.


Any clock is independent from time.  Time does not even care if the clock stops ticking
« Last Edit: 25/01/2016 08:38:53 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
  • Thanked: 125 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #37 on: 25/01/2016 08:45:45 »
so how can the cycle rate affect a 1 second period?
It doesn't.
This is very, very basic maths. You should have stuck with Pete's course then you would understand.
I will try one last time.

Cycles per second is a measure of frequency. The frequency of your radio station (millions of cycles every second) is different from the frequency of mains electricity (50 cycles every second in UK).
If you want to measure one second using the mains, you would have to count 50 cycles to get 1second.
If you are using Cesium you have to count a lot more, but because they are closer together they still take up 1second.
Think of counting cars going by. In rush hour there will be far more cars going by every hour (and they are closer together) than there are at 2 in the morning (when they are further apart), eg 1000/hr against 2/hr, but the length of one hour is still the same.
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3164
  • Thanked: 47 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #38 on: 25/01/2016 08:51:05 »
so how can the cycle rate affect a 1 second period?
It doesn't.
This is very, very basic maths. You should have stuck with Pete's course then you would understand.
I will try one last time.

Cycles per second is a measure of frequency. The frequency of your radio station (millions of cycles every second) is different from the frequency of mains electricity (50 cycles every second in UK).
If you want to measure one second using the mains, you would have to count 50 cycles to get 1second.
If you are using Cesium you have to count a lot more, but because they are closer together they still take up 1second.
Think of counting cars going by. In rush hour there will be far more cars going by every hour (and they are closer together) than there are at 2 in the morning (when they are further apart), eg 1000/hr against 2/hr, but the length of one hour is still the same.

I know what a frequency is.   You are missing the point, science defines time has an emittance rate.  An emittance rate is not time.

It does not matter that the emittance rate slows down, this does not and can not affect time. A lag in emittance rate is not a lag in time, time is not emitted , time just is, and just is does not change.
 

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
  • Thanked: 125 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #39 on: 25/01/2016 08:58:52 »

I know what a frequency is.   
Apparently not.

time just is, and just is does not change.
I never said it changed.
Reread what I wrote and try to understand, this is fundamental to understanding frequency, wavelength and time.
This is my last attempt
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3164
  • Thanked: 47 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #40 on: 25/01/2016 09:06:41 »

Reread what I wrote and try to understand, this is fundamental to understanding frequency, wavelength and time.
This is my last attempt

I know what a frequency and a wave length and what time is. 

frequency = the amount of repeat occurrences


wave length - distance between peaks

time- the measurable event of change.

Why not try to read what I wrote again Colin, the post a few posts ago where I use light to measure time between point A and point B and use a circle to keep the radius distance always the same.

You are not understanding that any clock including atomic clocks is not time, they are devices, so please tell me how any device can change the rate of time? 

It simply can't

''but the length of one hour is still the same.''

yes that is what I am saying , so you agree with me then ?

The length of one second does not change, the frequency may change but that does not affect the 1 second length.

« Last Edit: 25/01/2016 09:13:25 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
  • Thanked: 125 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #41 on: 25/01/2016 15:06:28 »
OK, just back from the gym and feeling generous. I am oozing generosity.
Getting this right is so important to your understanding of time that I'll try again.

frequency = the amount of repeat occurrences
No.
Frequency is the number of repeat occurances in a given time, usually 1 second.
I'm going to labour this because it is important we get it right.

When you are resting your heart rate is probably around 60 = 60 beats every minute = a frequency of 1 beat/s.
If you run upstairs it might go up to 100 = 100 beats every minute. It is the same minute, but you are cramming more beats into it.
If your heart rate was really regular at 60 beats/min you could use it to time 1 min by counting beats.
The cesium clock is similar, we can count the cycles (beats) until we get to  9,192,631,770 and we know 1s has passed.
This doesn't mean time has an emittance rate as you call it, it is the clock that has a tick, and we are counting the ticks.

Why not try to read what I wrote again Colin, the post a few posts ago where I use light to measure time between point A and point B and use a circle to keep the radius distance always the same.
No point until we resolve this problem. It isn't one we can agree to disagree on, because it is too fundamental.

You are not understanding that any clock including atomic clocks is not time, they are devices, so please tell me how any device can change the rate of time? 

It simply can't
You are right it can't (as far as we know).
This doesn't mean I agree with all you are saying so hear me out.
If you are at rest relative to a clock the time it shows will be consistent with other clocks at rest, and will not change.
If you move the clock as described in special relativity, then you will observe that the clock shows a diferent time to one that is at rest beside you.

''but the length of one hour is still the same.''

yes that is what I am saying , so you agree with me then ?
Yes, but subject to what I have just said.


The length of one second does not change, the frequency may change but that does not affect the 1 second length.
Yes, but again subject to what I have just said. So don't say I agree with all your theory.

You also need to go back and understand what Alan was saying about the rate of time, because time passes at 1 second every second, past future and present (we think). But it makes no sense to talk of the rate of time.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4726
  • Thanked: 155 times
  • life is too short to drink instant coffee
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #42 on: 25/01/2016 16:54:06 »
Quote
science defines time has an emittance rate.

No!!! (for the  umpteenth time)

Time is the separation between sequential events, just as distance is the separation between geometric points.

We measure time with a cesium clock (we used to measure it with a klepsydra, but this forum is about science, not history) and we measure distance by the time it takes for light to travel between the points (we used to use Edward II's arm).

Definition of a dimension (e.g. time, length, mass) is not the same as the definition of a unit within that dimenson.
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3164
  • Thanked: 47 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #43 on: 25/01/2016 23:23:52 »


frequency = the amount of repeat occurrences
''No.
Frequency is the number of repeat occurances in a given time, usually 1 second.
I'm going to labour this because it is important we get it right.''

I said the same thing , that is a bit nit picking just because I missed time off, and after reading the rest of the post,and Alans post,  frequency is the amount of repeat occurrences in a set amount of distance that we use to measure a rate of time.



The length of one second does not change, the frequency may change but that does not affect the 1 second length.
''Yes, but again subject to what I have just said. So don't say I agree with all your theory.''

I won't say a word on it Colin, you know what you agree with.



 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3164
  • Thanked: 47 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #44 on: 25/01/2016 23:51:24 »
Let us imagine a journey, let us imagine that we are the Earth and are travelling through a space that contained no other mass but the Earth. Let us time ourselves, relative to space we can not time our journey, there is no other bodies to define points of measurement,


Lets us look back into our journey, we see nothing but blank space, let us look ahead into our journey , we see nothing but blank space, we only see now in this space. There is no history of our journey and no future of our journey.


P.s only just noticed, congrats on being a mod Colin.

« Last Edit: 25/01/2016 23:56:46 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
  • Thanked: 125 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #45 on: 26/01/2016 00:04:17 »
I said the same thing , that is a bit nit picking just because I missed time off
No, what is missed off is important. If we don't get it 100% right we will always be misunderstanding each other.
If you were owed 100 and were given 10 would you be ok with that? Hey, they only left 0 off so you're being picky.

  frequency is the amount of repeat occurrences in a set amount of distance that we use to measure a rate of time.
No not rate of time. You could say passage of time and be correct. Don't know why you added that because frequency isn't always used to measure time.
If by distance you mean ft, meters etc then no, it has to a unit of time - usually 1 second.
Better would be "frequency is the number of repeat occurrences in a set amount of time"

Edit: my post crossed in time with yours.
Thanks for congrats, but not sure, lots to learn about how to keep spam out etc.
Have a good night, sleep tight etc
« Last Edit: 26/01/2016 00:08:03 by Colin2B »
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3164
  • Thanked: 47 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #46 on: 26/01/2016 00:22:28 »
I said the same thing , that is a bit nit picking just because I missed time off
No, what is missed off is important. If we don't get it 100% right we will always be misunderstanding each other.
If you were owed 100 and were given 10 would you be ok with that? Hey, they only left 0 off so you're being picky.

  frequency is the amount of repeat occurrences in a set amount of distance that we use to measure a rate of time.
No not rate of time. You could say passage of time and be correct. Don't know why you added that because frequency isn't always used to measure time.
If by distance you mean ft, meters etc then no, it has to a unit of time - usually 1 second.
Better would be "frequency is the number of repeat occurrences in a set amount of time"

Edit: my post crossed in time with yours.
Thanks for congrats, but not sure, lots to learn about how to keep spam out etc.
Have a good night, sleep tight etc

OK, I agree with your points and should not presume the reader automatically knows what I mean, especially if I miss parts out using short versions as such and presuming the reader does not need explanation in their own knowing.

''If by distance you mean ft, meters etc then no, it has to a unit of time - usually 1 second.''

Anything after 0 is a ''distance''


01


How can you measure 1 second without having something relative distance wise to measure a ''distance''?

A clock second finger on a mechanical clock does work ,

A Caesium frequency does work.

A sundial even has movement over a distance of degree.


According to my maths 1 second is equal to 0.277 mile based on the origin of time and relative to the suns and earth's motion?

Presently the speed of time is 1035 mph?

This 1 second length then used to measure the cycles of the Caesium, so we could then use the cycles to represent 1 second because of the said stability of the constant of the Caesium which turns out to be a ''broken clock'' that has a variance,


Thank you good night.







« Last Edit: 26/01/2016 00:24:30 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
  • Thanked: 125 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #47 on: 26/01/2016 10:58:27 »

According to my maths 1 second is equal to 0.277 mile based on the origin of time and relative to the suns and earth's motion?

Presently the speed of time is 1035 mph?
Did you use the circumference at the equator?
The second came into use with the development of mechanical clocks in Europe which lies latitude 40-50. At this latitude the circumference of a small circle is less than that of the equator, so the speed of light will be slower.
As you go north the small circles of latitude get smaller still, so as you approach the North Pole the speed of light will -> 0. So you have shown that the speed of light is not a constant, bet Einstein wishes he'd known that it would have saved a lot of thinking.
The current measurement of light speed is 671 million miles/hr compared to your 1035mph. This means that the circumference of the earth was a lot, lot bigger when it was measured in the 1800s.
We seem to have lost a lot of earth somewhere, any ideas?
 

Offline Thebox

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3164
  • Thanked: 47 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #48 on: 26/01/2016 11:18:46 »

According to my maths 1 second is equal to 0.277 mile based on the origin of time and relative to the suns and earth's motion?

Presently the speed of time is 1035 mph?
Did you use the circumference at the equator?
The second came into use with the development of mechanical clocks in Europe which lies latitude 40-50. At this latitude the circumference of a small circle is less than that of the equator, so the speed of light will be slower.
As you go north the small circles of latitude get smaller still, so as you approach the North Pole the speed of light will -> 0. So you have shown that the speed of light is not a constant, bet Einstein wishes he'd known that it would have saved a lot of thinking.
The current measurement of light speed is 671 million miles/hr compared to your 1035mph. This means that the circumference of the earth was a lot, lot bigger when it was measured in the 1800s.
We seem to have lost a lot of earth somewhere, any ideas?


Yes I used the equator and was referring before mechanical clocks, reference ancient Egypt and sundials. A mechanical clock had a reference of 1 second from somewhere.   

I am unsure how 1035 mph of the Earth's spin has anything to do with the speed of light?  and how exactly have i proved the speed of light is a variant? (caesium clocks?) or zero speed because of the cancelling out?


How does something get smaller? relatively it moves away.

Am I causing trouble in science  , if so I will leave on your request?

or you are being sarcastic or I am misunderstanding or you are misunderstanding.


hope I haven't broke anything for real..

added - I am worried now, should I be?

« Last Edit: 26/01/2016 11:56:30 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

  • Global Moderator
  • Neilep Level Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1921
  • Thanked: 125 times
    • View Profile
Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #49 on: 26/01/2016 13:10:26 »
Yes I used the equator .....
I am unsure how 1035 mph of the Earth's spin has anything to do with the speed of light? 
Sorry, my misunderstanding of what 'speed of time' meant. This is why it ismportant to get understanding clear.
The 'speed of time' ie the rate at which time passes will affect the measurement of the speed of light, especially if it changes.

and how exactly have i proved the speed of light is a variant?
If you have calculated the 'speed of time' dependant on a specific circumference, that speed will change with circumference.
At Latitude 50 the distance travelled in a day, by a point on the surface, is less than that at the equator (unless you believe in a flat earth). So at that latitude the speed of time will be faster as it has a shorter distance to travel each day. Because of that the speed of light will change with latitude.

How does something get smaller? relatively it moves away.
The distance travelled around the earth on lines of latitude decreases the further north you go - look at a globe.

Am I causing trouble in science  , if so I will leave on your request?
You won't cause science any problems I assure you  ;)
No one wants you to leave, just learn.

or you are being sarcastic or I am misunderstanding or you are misunderstanding.
Although I misunderstood the 'speed of time', I was not being sarcastic but just working out the consequences of using the equator as your distance. The effects I described still take place, and the 'speed of time' and the speed of light would vary between equator and the poles.

hope I haven't broke anything for real..

added - I am worried now, should I be?
Don't worry, I doubt if your theory will bring the end of the world much further forward  :)
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: What is the rate of future time?
« Reply #49 on: 26/01/2016 13:10:26 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums