# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Defining the infinite value of nothing.  (Read 1163 times)

#### Thebox

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##### Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« on: 28/01/2016 00:58:49 »
What is nothing?   when most people think of nothing they consider nothing, no light, no mass, no time and no space.

so how can we define this in geometrical terms?

I propose we could define that nothing is a zero point of anywhere of space where space isotropically adjoins space.

However , what if we were to view nothing, as there is nothing there within a space, such like a void and emptiness?

Although we define nothing , in this example nothing still is something and has n-dimensional space.  So I propose we could define the absolute of space nothing, and propose that nothing is not only infinitesimal small but simultaneously infinite.

0 and ∞0

The concept of that before the big bang there was nothing, will hold true within the physics of this concept.

« Last Edit: 28/01/2016 01:02:00 by Thebox »

#### Alohascope

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #1 on: 28/01/2016 02:14:35 »
Nothing is impossible .. if there was nothing, there would be nothing to contemplate it.  I agree that '0' is the only infinite number .. but the '0' itself is something, so it disallows nothing.

Before the theoretical 'Big Bang' there was the theoretical tiny point of everything (the singularity.)   However, the Cosmic Background Radiation has proven to be heat from dust . . and the CMB was the 'proving factor' of Big Bang .. so .. Big Bang appears dead.
« Last Edit: 28/01/2016 02:18:15 by Alohascope »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #2 on: 28/01/2016 02:37:18 »
Nothing is impossible .. if there was nothing, there would be nothing to contemplate it.  I agree that '0' is the only infinite number .. but the '0' itself is something, so it disallows nothing.

Before the theoretical 'Big Bang' there was the theoretical tiny point of everything (the singularity.)   However, the Cosmic Background Radiation has proven to be heat from dust . . and the CMB was the 'proving factor' of Big Bang .. so .. Big Bang appears dead.

Nothing is possible 4/3 pi r³  subtract an equal 4/3 pi r³ =

Notice how I did not put an answer, because the answer is nothing rather than 0.

That is why I suggest 0 and 0 have a duality.

#### Space Flow

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #3 on: 28/01/2016 08:12:06 »
What is nothing?
That question is an oxymoron. You assign a "what" to something. You can not contemplate nothing. It is totally illogical. Even the act of thinking about it makes it something.
when most people think of nothing they consider nothing, no light, no mass, no time and no space.
No..... When most people think of nothing they think of nothing made of particles. No Matter and No Energy. The Empty space is still there. Matter and Energy can be added to it. It is something.
so how can we define this in geometrical terms?
And now you want to take an impossible concept and further define it by geometry while still insisting it is a nothing signifying the absence of everything. This is the sort of thinking my wife practices and it has absolutely nothing to do with logical thinking.
However , what if we were to view nothing, as there is nothing there within a space, such like a void and emptiness?
Cool we have now progressed to wanting to view this? Yet you still think it isn't anything? Even my wife wouldn't go that far.
So I propose we could define the absolute of space nothing, and propose that nothing is not only infinitesimal small but simultaneously infinite.
Noooo.... We can not define space as nothing. We would have to strip it of all the qualities we have proven it has. Again why would you ignore all the observational and experimental evidence that allows us to define Spacetime by it's properties. Only something can have properties that can be observed and defined.
Nothing is possible 4/3 pi r³  subtract an equal 4/3 pi r³ =

Notice how I did not put an answer, because the answer is nothing rather than 0.
You have just managed to subtract a perfectly good and very useful equation from itself and ended up with no equation. This answer ridiculous as it  sounds makes more sense than your maths.
How exactly do you propose you can take away (subtract) an otherwise empty volume from itself? Where exactly do you think you are going to put this empty volume that you have magically taken away from somewhere, thus leaving a gaping hole in the fabric of spacetime?
« Last Edit: 28/01/2016 08:15:32 by Space Flow »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #4 on: 28/01/2016 11:39:16 »
What is nothing?
That question is an oxymoron. You assign a "what" to something. You can not contemplate nothing. It is totally illogical. Even the act of thinking about it makes it something.
when most people think of nothing they consider nothing, no light, no mass, no time and no space.
No..... When most people think of nothing they think of nothing made of particles. No Matter and No Energy. The Empty space is still there. Matter and Energy can be added to it. It is something.
so how can we define this in geometrical terms?
And now you want to take an impossible concept and further define it by geometry while still insisting it is a nothing signifying the absence of everything. This is the sort of thinking my wife practices and it has absolutely nothing to do with logical thinking.
However , what if we were to view nothing, as there is nothing there within a space, such like a void and emptiness?
Cool we have now progressed to wanting to view this? Yet you still think it isn't anything? Even my wife wouldn't go that far.
So I propose we could define the absolute of space nothing, and propose that nothing is not only infinitesimal small but simultaneously infinite.
Noooo.... We can not define space as nothing. We would have to strip it of all the qualities we have proven it has. Again why would you ignore all the observational and experimental evidence that allows us to define Spacetime by it's properties. Only something can have properties that can be observed and defined.
Nothing is possible 4/3 pi r³  subtract an equal 4/3 pi r³ =

Notice how I did not put an answer, because the answer is nothing rather than 0.
You have just managed to subtract a perfectly good and very useful equation from itself and ended up with no equation. This answer ridiculous as it  sounds makes more sense than your maths.
How exactly do you propose you can take away (subtract) an otherwise empty volume from itself? Where exactly do you think you are going to put this empty volume that you have magically taken away from somewhere, thus leaving a gaping hole in the fabric of spacetime?
You clearly have no idea in that which nothing is.

'' We can not define space as nothing. We would have to strip it of all the qualities we have proven it has. ''

huh, yes exactly that, space is not that of the qualities it possesses, space is that which is behind the qualities, i.e nothing.

I am sorry but you really do not know what nothing is and certainly have no visualisation skills. If you can not see in front of your eyes the absolute zero points of adjoining space or the behind the light and matter, you have no idea what nothing is.

#### Space Flow

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #5 on: 28/01/2016 12:12:38 »
I am sorry but you really do not know what nothing is and certainly have no visualisation skills. If you can not see in front of your eyes the absolute zero points of adjoining space or the behind the light and matter, you have no idea what nothing is.
I bet in a former life you made a living out of massaging auras...

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #6 on: 28/01/2016 12:18:29 »

I bet in a former life you made a living out of massaging auras...

I have  no idea if that is an insult or a compliment, I have the ability to see the naked science of things, I take all the clothes off, strip back the skin and bones and start at the beginning which is nothing, so I am very familiar with nothing. I knew nothing of science really, but nothing can soon become something.

#### Space Flow

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #7 on: 28/01/2016 12:25:21 »
A little bit of knowledge can be a very misleading mistress. Especially with no clothes on.

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #8 on: 28/01/2016 12:38:36 »

I bet in a former life you made a living out of massaging auras...

I have  no idea if that is an insult or a compliment, I have the ability to see the naked science of things, I take all the clothes off, strip back the skin and bones and start at the beginning which is nothing, so I am very familiar with nothing. I knew nothing of science really, but nothing can soon become something.

Lol. The concept of nothing is too vague to fit as a scientific theory. I guess you should expand on the nature of the "something" rather than defining "nothing" in geometrical terms.

Quote
I propose we could define that nothing is a zero point of anywhere of space where space isotropically adjoins space.

This is practically a pseudo-profound BS, unless you can prove that history has no future.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #9 on: 28/01/2016 12:49:51 »

This is practically a pseudo-profound BS, unless you can prove that history has no future.

History and future has nothing to do with a zero point adjoining of anything.

consider a point is something , then consider a zero point, just simply remove the point , contract the point, you will visualise one of the nothings of the two nothings.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #10 on: 28/01/2016 12:51:08 »
A little bit of knowledge can be a very misleading mistress. Especially with no clothes on.

A small key can open a huge door to reveal a huge hallway, without the key the cat remains in the box.

#### puppypower

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #11 on: 28/01/2016 13:03:09 »
Let me show you a special case where a point nothing can give a false negative. If we move at the speed of light, the universe will appear contracted to a point according to SR. At the speed of light, everything in our universe would appear smaller than a point if the entire universe was a point. Therefore by the math definition of a point, galaxies, stars and planets would be considered nothing; less than a point is not possible by definition since point is as small as you can go.

But since we came from the inertial universe, we know there are many things that are smaller than the point nothing we see at the speed of light. However, we can't see them or measure them since they appear as nothing and are defined as nothing due to the definition of a point. The same is true of energy, in that at the speed of light, the point universe will not allow us to see any energy with a wavelength shorter than infinite wavelength. These wavelengths define a fraction of the nothing point.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #12 on: 28/01/2016 13:13:00 »
Let me show you a special case where a point nothing can give a false negative. If we move at the speed of light, the universe will appear contracted to a point according to SR. At the speed of light, everything in our universe would appear smaller than a point if the entire universe was a point. Therefore by the math definition of a point, galaxies, stars and planets would be considered nothing; less than a point is not possible by definition since point is as small as you can go.

But since we came from the inertial universe, we know there are many things that are smaller than the point nothing we see at the speed of light. However, we can't see them or measure them since they appear as nothing and are defined as nothing due to the definition of a point. The same is true of energy, in that at the speed of light, the point universe will not allow us to see any energy with a wavelength shorter than infinite wavelength. These wavelengths define a fraction of the nothing point.

I am not quite sure of some of what you just said, what I understand is that if we travelled at the speed of light, the Universe will instantly contract to visually nothing, the reason being we know longer receive light to our eyes relatively making it dark.
If you can imagine the inverse square law but being at the opposite end than the zero point, (the wide end) , relatively to you, you would not observe the light source and the Universe would be contracted to your lack of vision. Every vanishing point is a nothing point, beyond our boundaries of sight, the perceived background of black of space, is a virtual wall of nothing points.

added - try to understand this diagram

« Last Edit: 28/01/2016 13:16:34 by Thebox »

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #13 on: 28/01/2016 13:19:18 »
Let me show you a special case where a point nothing can give a false negative. If we move at the speed of light, the universe will appear contracted to a point according to SR. At the speed of light, everything in our universe would appear smaller than a point if the entire universe was a point. Therefore by the math definition of a point, galaxies, stars and planets would be considered nothing; less than a point is not possible by definition since point is as small as you can go.

A "zero point" seems debatable. Quantum mecanics assert the existence of zero point energy, for instance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

Quote
But since we came from the inertial universe, we know there are many things that are smaller than the point nothing we see at the speed of light. However, we can't see them or measure them since they appear as nothing and are defined as nothing due to the definition of a point. The same is true of energy, in that at the speed of light, the point universe will not allow us to see any energy with a wavelength shorter than infinite wavelength. These wavelengths define a fraction of the nothing point.

Interesting. Thank you for this post.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #14 on: 28/01/2016 13:20:23 »
Let me show you a special case where a point nothing can give a false negative. If we move at the speed of light, the universe will appear contracted to a point according to SR. At the speed of light, everything in our universe would appear smaller than a point if the entire universe was a point. Therefore by the math definition of a point, galaxies, stars and planets would be considered nothing; less than a point is not possible by definition since point is as small as you can go.

A "zero point" seems debatable. Quantum mecanics assert the existence of zero point energy, for instance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

Quote
But since we came from the inertial universe, we know there are many things that are smaller than the point nothing we see at the speed of light. However, we can't see them or measure them since they appear as nothing and are defined as nothing due to the definition of a point. The same is true of energy, in that at the speed of light, the point universe will not allow us to see any energy with a wavelength shorter than infinite wavelength. These wavelengths define a fraction of the nothing point.

Interesting. Thank you for this post.

zero point energy-zero point kE

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #15 on: 28/01/2016 13:23:46 »
Let me show you a special case where a point nothing can give a false negative. If we move at the speed of light, the universe will appear contracted to a point according to SR. At the speed of light, everything in our universe would appear smaller than a point if the entire universe was a point. Therefore by the math definition of a point, galaxies, stars and planets would be considered nothing; less than a point is not possible by definition since point is as small as you can go.

But since we came from the inertial universe, we know there are many things that are smaller than the point nothing we see at the speed of light. However, we can't see them or measure them since they appear as nothing and are defined as nothing due to the definition of a point. The same is true of energy, in that at the speed of light, the point universe will not allow us to see any energy with a wavelength shorter than infinite wavelength. These wavelengths define a fraction of the nothing point.

I am not quite sure of some of what you just said, what I understand is that if we travelled at the speed of light, the Universe will instantly contract to visually nothing, the reason being we know longer receive light to our eyes relatively making it dark.
If you can imagine the inverse square law but being at the opposite end than the zero point, (the wide end) , relatively to you, you would not observe the light source and the Universe would be contracted to your lack of vision. Every vanishing point is a nothing point, beyond our boundaries of sight, the perceived background of black of space, is a virtual wall of nothing points.

added - try to understand this diagram

If I was to increase the radius of the sun in the diagram from you the black becomes white, the white expands.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #16 on: 28/01/2016 13:27:51 »

I had better explain that one, you are in a midway point between two stars, however the inverse square law has diminished the light so bad you are in the dark without being in shadow. You can do this experiment on a huge field at  night.
« Last Edit: 28/01/2016 13:34:52 by Thebox »

#### Space Flow

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #17 on: 29/01/2016 08:35:04 »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #18 on: 29/01/2016 09:29:47 »

Your use of syntactic ambiguity is very good, most impressive, to insult without insulting or to compliment without complimenting, most impressive.

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Defining the infinite value of nothing.
« Reply #18 on: 29/01/2016 09:29:47 »