# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Is distance an absolute invariant?  (Read 16350 times)

#### Ethos_

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #150 on: 08/02/2016 00:18:26 »

Is distance an 'absolute' invariant?

Is: As set out by established physics.  No!

If you ask me 'why' now, I'm going to scream!!!
Simple and concise answer my man, Mr. Box should appreciate that a great deal even though this has been the umpteenth time that question has been answered.

If Mr. Box wants an answer to why we know this, let it suffice to say: "Because that result is what relativistic math and experiment reveal."

Now as to the singular question "why"; Maybe a similar answer as to; "why does a dog circle itself twice before setting down?"

Only the dog knows for sure!
« Last Edit: 08/02/2016 00:21:03 by Ethos_ »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #151 on: 08/02/2016 10:19:17 »

Is distance an 'absolute' invariant?

Is: As set out by established physics.  No!

If you ask me 'why' now, I'm going to scream!!!
Simple and concise answer my man, Mr. Box should appreciate that a great deal even though this has been the umpteenth time that question has been answered.

If Mr. Box wants an answer to why we know this, let it suffice to say: "Because that result is what relativistic math and experiment reveal."

Now as to the singular question "why"; Maybe a similar answer as to; "why does a dog circle itself twice before setting down?"

Only the dog knows for sure!

What experiment shows a length contraction, I do not believe this experiment exists?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #152 on: 08/02/2016 10:22:22 »
If anyone needs a definitive answer to a scientific question then Alan, Evan_au, ChiralSPO, Colin2B and others I may have forgotten will provide it. They are all prepared to stand corrected by others when they are shown to be wrong in their understanding. To effectively challenge mainstream ideas requires an understanding that you can't get from pop science books. Also adopting a user name based on a pet theory should sound alarm bells.

An understanding of the universe cannot be attained by a school education either, no matter how much your parents paid, and paid for or not, a school education is no guarantee of a persons personal intellect.

A full understanding of the universe is yet to exist.

P.S.  I hadn't realised Thebox... had a theory called Thebox...  I'll have to do a search, aye :D

I have not got a theory called the box.

Aww, how cute is that?

Tbh, box, I did in fact already know this.  Try thinking it through a little bit further... :)

Well I did think further and google the box theory to find a facebook page, green box, red box, yellow box, nothing I have not said in the past in a different way.

#### timey

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #153 on: 08/02/2016 14:46:38 »
If anyone needs a definitive answer to a scientific question then Alan, Evan_au, ChiralSPO, Colin2B and others I may have forgotten will provide it. They are all prepared to stand corrected by others when they are shown to be wrong in their understanding. To effectively challenge mainstream ideas requires an understanding that you can't get from pop science books. Also adopting a user name based on a pet theory should sound alarm bells.

An understanding of the universe cannot be attained by a school education either, no matter how much your parents paid, and paid for or not, a school education is no guarantee of a persons personal intellect.

A full understanding of the universe is yet to exist.

P.S.  I hadn't realised Thebox... had a theory called Thebox...  I'll have to do a search, aye :D

I have not got a theory called the box.

Aww, how cute is that?

Tbh, box, I did in fact already know this.  Try thinking it through a little bit further... :)

Well I did think further and google the box theory to find a facebook page, green box, red box, yellow box, nothing I have not said in the past in a different way.

Box, :). I am the one with the time theory and the user name timey, OK?

#### timey

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #154 on: 08/02/2016 14:48:06 »
Meanwhile...  in a much long forgotten relics room, at an as yet to be disclosed museum somewhere... geologists have been called in to conduct carbon dating of the stratum of dust layers obscuring the contours of an artefact that scientists, and historians alike, are now convinced might just be Occam's Razor...

#### Ethos_

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #155 on: 08/02/2016 15:13:02 »

What experiment shows a length contraction, I do not believe this experiment exists?
There have been several experiments that suggest verification for length contraction at near light speed. One such experiment using heavy ions has shown that the increase in nucleon density do to length contraction is the most logical conclusion. Heavy ions are spherical at rest but assume a flattened or pancake like shape at near light speeds. This experiment has been observed and verified at cyclotrons, commonly referred to as atom smashers.

Maybe you should start looking up the material for yourself, the web or a good physics weekly would be a good start.
« Last Edit: 08/02/2016 15:15:41 by Ethos_ »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #156 on: 08/02/2016 15:15:39 »

Box, :). I am the one with the time theory and the user name timey, OK?

Sorry you lost me, what time theory?

are you the time cube guy?

« Last Edit: 08/02/2016 15:19:48 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #157 on: 08/02/2016 15:19:17 »

What experiment shows a length contraction, I do not believe this experiment exists?
There have been several experiments that suggest verification for length contraction at near light speed. One such experiment using heavy ions has shown that the increase in nucleon density do to length contraction is the most logical conclusion. Heavy ions are spherical at rest but assume a flattened or pancake like shape at near light speeds. This experiment has been observed and verified at cyclotrons, commonly referred to as atom smashers.

Maybe you should start looking up the material for yourself, the web or a good physics weekly would be a good start.

huh?  I have no idea what you just said, what on Earth is an heavy ion suppose to be?

I looked it up, how does charged particles grouping while travelling through  collider prove contraction of a stick?

« Last Edit: 08/02/2016 15:24:18 by Thebox »

#### Ethos_

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #158 on: 08/02/2016 15:39:33 »

huh?  I have no idea what you just said, what on Earth is an heavy ion suppose to be?
Look it up, you have shown no interest in what any of us have offered you freely to date. Unless you're willing to learn from reputable sources like most of the members here at TNS frequent, how can you honestly expect to learn or form accurate views about current scientific information?

How are you ever going to learn anything Mr. Box if you won't trust the professionals that have the equipment and knowledge to preform these experiments? I'm sure you don't have a cyclotron at your residence and neither do any of us. We get our information from the facilities that do.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #159 on: 08/02/2016 15:50:46 »

huh?  I have no idea what you just said, what on Earth is an heavy ion suppose to be?
Look it up, you have shown no interest in what any of us have offered you freely to date. Unless you're willing to learn from reputable sources like most of the members here at TNS frequent, how can you honestly expect to learn or form accurate views about current scientific information?

How are you ever going to learn anything Mr. Box if you won't trust the professionals that have the equipment and knowledge to preform these experiments? I'm sure you don't have a cyclotron at your residence and neither do any of us. We get our information from the facilities that do.

I do not know the exact details of the experiment, therefore I hold judgement, I have not observed the experimental procedure and method to discourse and look for human error or observer effect.

It is not that I don't ''trust'', I do not take things at face value.   The title of a book tells what the story is about, only if you read the full book doe's one know the full story.

In my question I do not ask about any of your book, I ask about something that I observe. I observe space itself without radiation or mass is an empty void, I observe there is no concrete existence such as an ether, I observe that for something to stretch, bend, contract, expand, it has to me made of something and have elastic or flexible properties. I do not observe objects of solidity in motion contracting in length. I do observe objects in rotation contacting in height and expanding in length.

The Earth and empty space of  a vacuum testament to the statement above's truthfulness.

How could the Earth's circumference at the equator ever contract when the expansion is caused by rotation velocity?

If the rotation slowed down there would be a diameter length contraction or circumference contraction if you like, but how can relative velocity of orbit contract a length?

How can the nothing of space contract ?

« Last Edit: 08/02/2016 16:02:37 by Thebox »

#### timey

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #160 on: 08/02/2016 16:42:06 »

Box, :). I am the one with the time theory and the user name timey, OK?

Sorry you lost me, what time theory?

are you the time cube guy?

G,grief!  Ok, look...Jeff said, amongst other implications, that a user who's basis of theory is reflected in a pet user name should sound alarm bells... I illustrated that it was not you he is side swiping with that comment, as you do not have a box theory!  Reason why I illustrated this fact is because it was me who he was having a sideways dig at.  Do you get it now?

No... I'm not the time cube guy, I'm the inverted time theory woman.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #161 on: 08/02/2016 16:50:06 »

Box, :). I am the one with the time theory and the user name timey, OK?

Sorry you lost me, what time theory?

are you the time cube guy?

G,grief!  Ok, look...Jeff said, amongst other implications, that a user who's basis of theory is reflected in a pet user name should sound alarm bells... I illustrated that it was not you he is side swiping with that comment, as you do not have a box theory!  Reason why I illustrated this fact is because it was me who he was having a sideways dig at.  Do you get it now?

No... I'm not the time cube guy, I'm the inverted time theory woman.

Arghh yes I get it now , my mistake sorry. Pleased to meet you inverted time theory lady.  Are you the same person who has made a new time theory but have not quite published the article yet?

A theory something to do with mirrored time running backwards in a parallel universe?

arrows of time ?

added - I found your thread , that must of been time consuming, how exactly does 0 invert?

« Last Edit: 08/02/2016 17:31:05 by Thebox »

#### Ethos_

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #162 on: 08/02/2016 17:57:06 »

I do not know the exact details of the experiment, therefore I hold judgement, I have not observed the experimental procedure and method to discourse and look for human error or observer effect.
Evidently then, you have only one recourse Mr. Box, purchase your own collider and preform the experiment yourself. Then, which I totally doubt, you'll be able to argue with the professionals at places like CERN. You somehow think you're arguing with us here at TNS when in reality, it is those accomplished scientists at places like CERN that you have your disagreement with. Now really, why should we trust you instead of them when you don't even know what a heavy ion is?

Believe what you wish sir, I'm done offering you examples in an effort to help you grow.

« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 15:54:39 by Ethos_ »

#### timey

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #163 on: 08/02/2016 18:52:58 »
added - I found your thread , that must of been time consuming, how exactly does 0 invert?

Well, what-da-ya-know!!!  Look at that will ya!!!

Cuts straight to the chase or what?

Truth is box, that's about the only one tiny part of my whole theory that I cannot quite get a visual on.  In my defence, the theory does take the universe all the way back to zero, no other theory does this, but I cannot get a precise mechanism for inverting nothing into something...  Not even the tinsiest, tiniest of somethings...  Not yet anyway!

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #164 on: 08/02/2016 19:46:16 »
added - I found your thread , that must of been time consuming, how exactly does 0 invert?

Well, what-da-ya-know!!!  Look at that will ya!!!

Cuts straight to the chase or what?

Truth is box, that's about the only one tiny part of my whole theory that I cannot quite get a visual on.  In my defence, the theory does take the universe all the way back to zero, no other theory does this, but I cannot get a precise mechanism for inverting nothing into something...  Not even the tinsiest, tiniest of somethings...  Not yet anyway!

Your theory needs to take the Universe back to 0 but also it needs to take the universe forward to 0∞.

Applicable from any reference point.

#### timey

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #165 on: 08/02/2016 19:55:08 »
Well box, the implications of a cyclic universe that increases in size each cycle does indeed extend to infinity, and does describe the universe from any reference point...  I know...I know... It's a bloody long read ;)

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #166 on: 08/02/2016 20:01:02 »
Well box, the implications of a cyclic universe that increases in size each cycle does indeed extend to infinity, and does describe the universe from any reference point...  I know...I know... It's a bloody long read ;)

Don't fall into trap of thinking shapes or cycle's just think infinite in any direction from any point, and not think space is expanding or has shape, red-shift is light reflecting from matter, space does not reflect light.

#### timey

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #167 on: 08/02/2016 20:17:11 »
LOL!  Got to hand it to ya!  Indeed... space does not reflect light!

So, you're all sorted then?  Questions answered to satisfaction?  Time dilation does exist, and both lengths and distances subsequently distort?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #168 on: 08/02/2016 20:27:56 »
LOL!  Got to hand it to ya!  Indeed... space does not reflect light!

So, you're all sorted then?  Questions answered to satisfaction?  Time dilation does exist, and both lengths and distances subsequently distort?

No time dilation exists but does not exist, lengths of space do not contract but objects and energies  might contract.

#### timey

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #169 on: 08/02/2016 20:53:25 »
I daresay the answer must lie within, grasshopper... :)

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #170 on: 08/02/2016 22:32:40 »
I do not know the exact details of the experiment, therefore I hold judgement, I have not observed the experimental procedure and method to discourse and look for human error or observer effect.
Then why don't you take the trouble to find and read the details.
I agree with Ethos, little point in discussing things with you if you can't be bothered to make the effort.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #171 on: 09/02/2016 00:22:49 »
I do not know the exact details of the experiment, therefore I hold judgement, I have not observed the experimental procedure and method to discourse and look for human error or observer effect.
Then why don't you take the trouble to find and read the details.
I agree with Ethos, little point in discussing things with you if you can't be bothered to make the effort.
I have spent time looking to find nothing , I found a few things on testing light but nothing to with testing lengths.   Also I now have some thoughts on distance contraction,  does a telescope contract distance visually?

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #172 on: 09/02/2016 06:47:50 »

No, I said

Quote
If you define b as being a fixed distance from a, then obviously [distance is invariant]. If you define b as being the other end of a stick, relativistic contraction will apply if the stick moves relative to an observer.

Thebox please read Alan's answer above through as many times as necessary. It tells you ALL you need to know. You can even come back and ask questions if it is not exactly clear. There is a subtle distinction in what Alan has said that you might miss.

Yes I have read that too, several times now, it sounds like Alan is saying space is an invariant but a stick if it moves shrinks in length.

If I had meant that , I would have said it. I meant exactly what I said, nothing more, nothing less.

Quote
Let us use a surfer on a surfboard surfing in space, and parallel to the surfer is another surfer travelling the same speed and direction.

s1→→→→→

s2→→→→→

So what am I looking at in this scenario that contracts?

a. the length of the surf board?

b. the distance?

Since they are not moving relative to each other, each sees the other's board as the same length as his own. Which is exactly what I wrote in the first place: contraction is only observed if the stick moves relative to the observer.

Nature is too dumb to cheat: physics only gets complicated if you add unnecessary complications and pointless preconceptions.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 06:56:16 by alancalverd »

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #173 on: 09/02/2016 07:11:20 »
I have spent time looking to find nothing , I found a few things on testing light but nothing to with testing lengths.
Ethos found it, you didn't look hard enough. Sounds like you are forming your own religion and ignoring contrary evidence.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #174 on: 09/02/2016 10:13:55 »
I have spent time looking to find nothing , I found a few things on testing light but nothing to with testing lengths.
Ethos found it, you didn't look hard enough. Sounds like you are forming your own religion and ignoring contrary evidence.

How am I ignoring when I am searching for it?

I can't find it, I can find plenty of stuff that says length contraction can not be tested and has never been tested.

Looks like another parlour trick to me using light.

And I have seen some  demo's using plus and neg, the distance does not change just the pattern in these type examples.

« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 10:26:23 by Thebox »

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Is distance an absolute invariant?
« Reply #174 on: 09/02/2016 10:13:55 »