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Author Topic: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)  (Read 6457352 times)

Offline John21

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1050 on: 17/08/2008 12:12:48 »
Girlwind/ Guthrie, nice work.  Bizzy, I like the Wikipedia idea.

Sparx, anxiety was of course present in the POIS state. Outside of it I was always somewhat of an anxious person, but this is not uncommon.  I developed what might be a generalized anxiety from “fighting” the problem for so long with no results.

Concerning my results…

At times throughout my life I have had back trouble. Often once or twice a year I will throw my back out. I haven’t listed this as a symptom, but at times this has definitely happened P.O.

This previous week I had another NE, while continuing my clove a day garlic diet. Again, I had no mental symptoms, and remember for me the mental trouble has always been the main symptom. I did notice that my neck glands were slightly swollen, as if I had a minor cold. Unexpectedly one morning I woke with a sore neck, which is very odd for me. Then a couple of days later my back went out.  Whether the back/neck problems are POIS related I have no clue. 

I believe that the garlic is definitely doing something. Is it killing an organism? Is it moving mercury around? I really don’t have any idea, but it is my new drug… I am now a garliholic.  I am also still eating some raw onions, although my money is on the garlic.  I am also still consuming some flax oil,  it seems to help with energy especially when insomnia is sapping me.

Thinking back to when I believed a dairy free diet was helping me, this could very well have been around the time that I began adding cooked garlic to my diet.

 
 

Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1051 on: 17/08/2008 15:12:21 »
Terrific! And I'm glad you said placebo effect. I was fooled by testosterone shot. It "worked" beautifully the first time, then pfffttt.
Placebo effect is good, though, it shows how badly the body/mind wants to recover!

I think the first shot of testosterone really does work and makes you feel so much better. But I too found that it quickly stops working, within 10 days. I think this is because it initially suppresses stress hormones such as cortisol and CRF, but the stress hormone circuit recovers back.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Did your doctors monitor your Estradiol levels during your Testosterone replacement therapy ? The first shot, E2 levels might have risen slighty but after that E2 may have risen considerably.


If T shots are given once or twice a week it will shoot up your E2 levels since the liver cant handle this amount of T and thus aromtases too estrogen. Modern approach is T shots E2D or E3D to keep T levels more consistent, less rollercoaster effects and too keep E2 in check.



demografx, what was your T levels before your doctor started you on T ? Also did your Dr test for E2, LH, FSH, Free T3, 4x Cortisol, Dhea, Prolactin, Shbg too see what was the cause?



I have just paid out my pocket for a full neurotransmitters test which cost $200+.
This test should us what neuros are depleted after orgasm.

We know that prolactin surges after orgasm and that furthur depletes dopamine and
possibly giving us POIS suffers a massive Dopamine-adrenaline-epinephrine conversion which could possibly explain the anxiety some POIS sufferers experience after
orgasm and the increased Bp.


I will post the results on the board once there here as well as my 
 4 cortisol tests(cost $150) post orgasm.

I have a feeling our inability
too handle stress and also the exhaustion/fatigue the days after orgasm is linked too the adrenals so hopefully the cort test will confirm this.

I already know I have low dhea so that is one half of the equation confirmed for adrenal fatigue/burn out.


Neuros tested :


Serotonin
Dopamine
Norepinephrine
Epinephrine
GABA
PEA
Histamine
Glutamate
Creatinine

Results here in 2 weeks hopefully.

« Last Edit: 17/08/2008 15:15:16 by Michael8028 »
 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1052 on: 17/08/2008 17:06:12 »

I have just paid out my pocket for a full neurotransmitters test which cost $200+.
This test should us what neuros are depleted after orgasm.



Hey Michael8028--what lab will you be using for the neurotransmitter tests?
 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1053 on: 17/08/2008 17:19:45 »

Dear all,

Just imagine, I am having a wonderful day
Due to a new formula:


Congratulations Coreman!

I've been having results with my formula too.
50 mg. 7 Keto DHEA 2X/day
1 tsp Maca 3X/per day
2 caps Siberian Ginseng 3X/day
1 gram Pantothenic acid 3-5X/day
B-100 caps 2X/day
2 Omega 3 Fish oil caps 1X/day
Magnesium chloride (transdermal oil) 2X/day
100 mg L-tryptophan before bed
Carbo restricted diet
and Garlic--as much as I can stand per day (thanks to John21)

Also, my CFS symptoms have been better lately, so my POIS is better as a result.
In my case, they are very interconnected.


 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1054 on: 17/08/2008 17:28:35 »
hi everyone,

I've been attempting to get an idea of how prevalent anxiety problems are amoung POIS sufferers by reading back through initial posts.

Anxiety is mentioned fairly often in association with POIS but it isn't clear whether anxiety is common before and/or after a POIS episode.

I've definitely had anxiety, due to CFS and related symptoms. The worse my energy is, the more restless and anxious I can be.
Usually the answer has been rest and adrenal restoration. Once my energy goes up, I don't have much in the way of anxiety,
unless there is some major stress or upset in my life. Because POIS seems to drain my adrenals, I will have anxiety with a POIS
episode. Though I am having some results and a lessening of POIS symptoms, due to the formula I mention above.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1055 on: 17/08/2008 18:26:13 »

demografx, what was your T levels before your doctor started you on T ? Also did your Dr test for E2, LH, FSH, Free T3, 4x Cortisol, Dhea, Prolactin, Shbg too see what was the cause?

I have just paid out my pocket for a full neurotransmitters test which cost $200+.
This test should us what neuros are depleted after orgasm.


Wow, Michael, this is fascinating! I didn't know neurotransmitters could be measured like that.

My T level was normal. I asked the docs to put me on TRT strictly for POIS (they argued with me but finally relented). Sorry I don't have any more data on my TRT "cure" - which didn't work after the first shot...so I stopped. I must say my libido went over the top; now my libido is comparatively on par with a 100-year old eunuch ;D
« Last Edit: 21/08/2008 03:24:25 by demografx »
 

Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1056 on: 17/08/2008 19:04:22 »

demografx, what was your T levels before your doctor started you on T ? Also did your Dr test for E2, LH, FSH, Free T3, 4x Cortisol, Dhea, Prolactin, Shbg too see what was the cause?

I have just paid out my pocket for a full neurotransmitters test which cost $200+.
This test should us what neuros are depleted after orgasm.


Wow, Martin, this is fascinating! I didn't know neurotransmitters could be measured like that.

My T level was normal. I asked the docs to put me on TRT strictly for POIS (they argued with me but finally relented). Sorry I don't have any more data on my TRT "cure" - which didn't work after the first shot...so I stopped. I must say my libido went over the top; now my libido is comparatively on par with a 100-year old eunuch ;D

demografx, do you have the T number and ranges ?

Just about all doctors will say your hormones are normal if the hormones are within range.Back then, they had me believing my hormone levels were fine for a 22 yr old but after furthur research, my t level was normal for a 60-70 yr old.

Your E2 levels may have been low before starting T and after the first T shot it may have raised your E2 level too a healthy optimal level giving you the increased libido. After that it may have raised E2 way too high since I dont think your doc prescribed you any AI(Aromatse inhibitor) to control the E2 sides from T shots.

 A good way too judge healthy E2 levels is morning erections.If your getting daily morning erections then E2 levels are perfect, if not i would check E2(Estradiol).

Its good you didnt stay on Trt for long as you could of shut down your natural T production and then you would have to be on T shots for life
but that is, if your T levels were ok to begin with.


Why not ask your doc to be refered to an Endo and check the hormones above as well as the neuros ....this would take out alot of the guess work
 

Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1057 on: 17/08/2008 19:26:15 »

I have just paid out my pocket for a full neurotransmitters test which cost $200+.
This test should show us what neuros are depleted after orgasm.



Hey Michael8028--what lab will you be using for the neurotransmitter tests?


Hi girlwind,(Nice video btw)

I ordered the neuro test from here :

http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/neuroscan_neurotransmitter_test.html

I see your taking Maca, pantothenic acid,B-100 caps 2X/day. These are awesome !

I take these for my adrenals too as well as vit c.

I have low dhea and low morning cortisol confirmed by saliva tests.

Have sent away my saliva kit for my afternoon, evening and late evening cortisol levels to see how bad or good my adrenals are doing the rest of the day.

BTW dhea orally 50mg a day can convert to bad estrogens messing the good to bad estrogen ratio. It depends on your liver. For no side effects from taking dhea take Dhea sublingual or rub dhea cream where the Dhea is not passed through the liver.

Although rubbing dhea cream wont work if one has Hypothyroidism as the cream wont be absorbed.


Alot of people with adrenal problems also have Hypothyroidism as the Thyroid hormone wont be received through the body when there is a lack of Cortisol which can cause anxiety etc

Im not sure if you posted your levels but what was your 4x cortisol and dhea results?

If you havent done so I would ask your Doc too check Free T3, TSH for Thyroid and Estradiol, Estrones and Progesterone too if your experiencing alot of anxiety.

If your Doc is no good, you can order these tests through ZRT labs, this is where I got mine done. You can either spit saliva through a tube or p.rick your finger for a blood spot and then all you do is send it away and they will post your results through letterbox in 2 weeks time or less.

It is expensive for most people but I think an investment too health is never too expensive.


« Last Edit: 17/08/2008 19:37:12 by Michael8028 »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1058 on: 18/08/2008 01:58:37 »

Its good you didnt stay on Trt for long as you could of shut down your natural T production and then you would have to be on T shots for life
but that is, if your T levels were ok to begin with.


Now you're scaring me. I was on TRT for some months. I was told by a top urologist that it could take 6+ months for my natural T production to come back strong. But I think there are complicating factors since I was low in libido due to depression and inactivity. I don't think numbers tell the whole story, and certainly not over the internet without a physician.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1059 on: 18/08/2008 02:04:36 »

(1) I ordered the neuro test from here :

http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/neuroscan_neurotransmitter_test.html

(2) ...order these tests through ZRT labs, this is where I got mine done...


Michael, you sound very knowledgeable; how do you know these people are good?
 

Offline questforlife

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1060 on: 18/08/2008 02:33:29 »
Hi, I cannot tell you my relief to find this forum after much scouring the web for anything that could relate to all the symptoms of what I now know of as POIS.

I believe I have been suffering from POIS since puberty (I am now 31 years old).  I had thought it was a result of excessive masturbation as a young teenager.  I feel that my addictive personality trait led me to become hooked on the sensations of orgasm. 

As a result in my mid teenage years 15 upwards did I start experiences the symptoms described in this forum.  I remember vividly feeling very numb, like my feelings had simply shut down, or perhaps my mind had beomce blank with not knowing how to identfy feelings.

This i believe was the start of a trail of symptoms that left me feeling very unusual which I could not identify.  Feelings of being detached from mind to body, constant anxiety, stomach spasms, disorientation, headaches, constantly lethargic, brain fog (that was the worst). 

Needless to say since my teenage years I have been on quest to find the solution that has left me on an antidepressants for the last ten years, deteriorated social skills, inability to form long lasting relationships (inparticular sexual relations with a girlfriend) and slowly losing all love for life. 

What I am after is consistency.  POIS i believe leaves the us in a very inconsistent state. I am sure all of us know and have experienced moments where things could not feel better and then within days feeling the complete opposite through the symptoms of POIS.

Like the rest of you I too have been on this journey of self diagnosing.  I have been to doctors, consultant, acupuncturists, hypnotherapists, homeopaths, herbalist nutritionists etc.  All have their own ideas of solutions which all seem to lead me unfixed. 

My journey has been a process of elimination.  It has been this process of elimination that has arrived me to the following conclusions about areas that are effected by the illness:
In my experience I would would say the following is very relevant:
1.POIS seems to be linked to a neurotransmitter imbalances: I know this because seroxat (SSRI) which inhibits serotonin lessens the effect of the symptoms. Also I have experimented with Mucuna Pruriens which effects dopamine levels. This at first left me feeling fantastic.  However two weeks on from this I was left empty, almost in a trance like state.
2. POIS seems to be linked to hormones : I was foolish enough to experiment with a anabolic steroid called dianobol which took my testosterone levels through the roof but reduced most symptoms of POIS.  Im not sure if this would have effected DHEA levels, but I know it effects nitrogen levels in the body which gives the user a heightened sense of well being.  Dianobol in a strange way did give me that sense of well being and thus a feeling of normality.  I would like to add that it causes huge amount of damage to the liver and negatives far out weigh the positives of taking this illegal substance. 
3. POIS seems to be linked to the adrenal levels.  I find taking Licorice root herb most beneficial.  I can be very unresponsive in terms of physical reactions and licorice root tends to give me a 'charge' like i am being plugged back in. Strangely, I am not sure how the adrenals effect the stomach, but Licorice root also helps with chronic stomach muscle spasms.  It is when my stomach is at its worse (when not on licorice root) that my responsiveness seems non existent.   In relation to muscle spasms, I also suffer from facial muscle pain and muscle spasms, both of which licorice root help which.

It seems to me that POIS leaves me chemically imbalanced, whether that is serotinin, dopamine, adrenal, cortisol.

I have had a Androbalance test on my cortisol.  The results where that I was just within the lower part of the reference range:
7:30 - Cortisol 2.2   ref 1.5-15
12:00 - Cortisol 0.50  ref 0.30-5.0
18:00 - Cortisol 0.30 ref 0.30-5.0
22:00 - Cortisol 0.30 ref 0.20-2.5

Because of my facial muscular pains I am seeing a Maxillofacial consultant next week.  Could be interesting if he has to do a MRI scan if anything else shows up. I'm not sure for the scans work, it could be a red herring.  Either way if interesting I will post my findings here.


I would like to add, that on my journey, I have found the following to help with energy levels as well as maintaining good health (even though at times we feel like were three times our age)
1. Hemp seed oil - this has been described as the worlds super food.  It contain all essential 9 amino acids as well as the perfect balance of Omega 3 and 6. As well as minerals such as magnesium and calcium to name a few.  I would recommend this as I am starting to feel the benefit only after three weeks ( you feel the full benefit after 12 weeks.  Hemp seed oil is better than fish oil or flax see because its plasma cells are the same as our plasma cells in o0ur blood, allowing the goodness to get straight to work.  Its main benefits is that is restores the myelin sheath around nerves (this is like the plastic insulation around your bodies internal wires)
2. Magnesium Taurate is the best form of magnesium I have taken.  After much research I have found this form seems to ease some of the symptoms (especially my anxiety).
3. Zinc - i have read us men lose zinc on ejaculation

All of the above are just my findings and I hope you find it useful in anyway.  I am a great believer that what works for me might not work for you and likewise, but there is only good to come out of sharing what findings we have all made to piece this frustrating puzzle together.

I am so glad I found you all on this forum.  If there is one thing that keeps me going is the saying: if it doesn't kill us it will only make us stronger.

(sorry abut the essay!)





 

Offline prosodye

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1061 on: 18/08/2008 15:38:02 »
(After writing this post and registering I noticed that the forum rules specify no sexual content. I was going to stop, but I did a search and found another post about it. I hope this type of discussion won't be deemed inappropriate.)


Hi. I would like to relate my very personal story of an unusual condition that I have been plagued with. I am close to 40 years old now, and ever since puberty I have had serious problems in the days immediately following ejaculation. My first symptom was acute back pain in the days following, at whatever age it was, perhaps around 14. After a few years it changed to an impaired cognitive condition, which I would describe as definite mental illness, in which thinking becomes very difficult, and it feels horrible in a way that can not be described. I'm sure specific neurotransmitters are depleted or something, but the cause of such a reaction is what I have never been able to understand. This has occurred following both nocturnal emissions and sexual activity. I avoid sex to keep my mind healthy, which means staying single and avoiding sexual imagery that might lead to a sexual dream and a nocturnal emission (they occur easily for me due to pronounced PE).

My biggest improvement in the condition occurred about 5 years ago when I stopped consuming milk products. I have no idea why or how this could be related, another weird piece of puzzle that I can not put together. I have searched the internet and haven't really found much to assist my understanding of this. I have found reference to reports of “post orgasmic illness syndrome” which sounds similar, but I don’t know the details of the cases involved.




John 


I can't believe somebody posted that, oh, it's wicked! Thank you John for that.
I've been using and abusing myself and with partners since a very young age, maybe 12 until a few years ago only, I'm horrified to say, being brought by very harsch parents, only child for 11 years, stuck in a bedroom for most of the time except for school, I was spending my time either reading (Telly was not allowed) or masturbating 6 or 7 times a day! Then it became nearly impossible to stop... eventually I managed to get away from that obsession completely a few years ago staying mainly celibate nearly all the time and being cautious as to not further deplete myself. My levels of energy are still really low and unintentional ejaculation at night with or without semen loss is hard to deal with.
I have hyperlordosis on the lumbar region, bad disc on the L5-S1 area with broken pars interarticularis, sacroileite with osteosclerosis, ...the whole place there in the lower back is a mess, which is not surprising after all that masturbation, and I developed slowly spondylolysthesis affecting the joints a little bit everywhere.
I stopped taking the whole load of NSAI etc maybe 4 years ago, and began meditating, sometimes as much as 10 hours a day and quit masturbation in september 2005, three years ago, which is not much.
At the same time I began changing my SAD diet. I had already stopped meat and fish and I slowly stopped gluten casein etc as well, to follow the "regime Seignalet", and my health improved dramatically.
 Writing down all the dates here gives me another awareness into my progression, it is the first time I think about how long I have been doing this or that!..
At the same time, before 2005, I was smoking loads of pot, I think it was the only thing that kept me going in spite of the extremely low energy, fuzzy brain, fear of social situations etc... and I quit smoking more or less at the same time when I quit masturbating. Geez I thought all that was so much longer ago...
I am now a raw foodist for 4 months or nearly, since the 25 April of this year, and it helps tremendously, having an alkaline system all the time... mostly thanks to green smoothies.
Still it does not resolve everything. I come involuntarily at night as soon as I go through too much cleaning, mostly from food ; if I fast, eat less, stop fruits, or stop fats, any small change now that purifies my system be it food , meditation or yoga, rapidly ends up in ongoing involuntary emissions at night, I have to be careful not to have a very pure diet! Even more so lately that I have been taking OxCgen and MMS ( the sodium chlorite turning in chlorine dioxide with the citric acid addition).  I can feel them having a very strong effect on the Candida, too strong an effect, the die-off is too severe, so I have ordered THreelac and Betain HCL, to approach it on another angle, as I am sure my years of SAD and sex have resulted in overblooming Candida, as the main problem inducing POIS, I always have itchy scalp, inner ears, anus... I have hope these will really help.
RAW chocolate with maca, suma, purple corn also help a lot. I also have a lot of raw spices from garlic to Cayenne.
There would be more to say but for a first post...
Thank you for reading, this forum is awesome.

Prosodye
« Last Edit: 18/08/2008 16:08:36 by prosodye »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1062 on: 18/08/2008 19:44:40 »
WELCOME questforlife and prosodye!

Thank you, thank you, for sharing your experiences and life history! I have had POIS for at least 30 years (I can't recall clearly before that) and I have not given up searching. I'm so glad because otherwise I wouldn't have found this POIS Forum!

Don't forget to look at (our very own) girlwind's POIS Video!!

« Last Edit: 18/08/2008 19:47:48 by demografx »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1063 on: 18/08/2008 20:02:52 »
SEVERE JET LAG (lasting DAYS and DAYS)
PERIODIC SEVERE DEPRESSION
EXTREME DIFFICULTY WITH MONDAY WORK RE-ENTRY (far beyond "Monday Blues" - can last till Thursday!)
DIFFICULTY SWITCHING ENVIRONMENTS (attach easily)
EXERCISE PRODUCES BAD EFFECT, e.g., anxiety...wired!!

Do any of these seem familiar? I wonder sometimes if the same crazy POIS mechanism is responsible or somehow associated with these symptoms.
« Last Edit: 18/08/2008 20:09:27 by demografx »
 

Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1064 on: 19/08/2008 00:40:27 »

Its good you didnt stay on Trt for long as you could of shut down your natural T production and then you would have to be on T shots for life
but that is, if your T levels were ok to begin with.


Now you're scaring me. I was on TRT for some months. I was told by a top urologist that it could take 6+ months for my natural T production to come back strong. But I think there are complicating factors since I was low in libido due to depression and inactivity. I don't think numbers tell the whole story, and certainly not over the internet without a physician.

Sorry i did not mean to scare you but I will be honest as Iam rather worried about your situation.

Urologists are generally not up to date in the hormone fields from what i have read on peoples
experiences on the Anabolicminds and mesomorphosis forums.

Anti Aging medicine practitioners are more up to date today
from the peoples experiences in the above forums for hormonal/ adrenal,sexual, general well being problems.

I had an experience with an Uro as he did not feel the need to test any of the hormones that effect
Testosterone and libido. All he did was prescribe me iboprofen for the migraines post orgasm.

I had printed out several articles on what hormones to test for but he had a read of it for
20 secs and put it down.

I had asked him to check my Estradiol levels but he scoffed at it and said " What for? It is a female hormone ".

LOL !


At that time I didnt have the knowledge to come back with the reasoning ... but now I just say to myself
why on earth did my personal Doctor refer me to an Urologist for hormone/neuro problems and
one that doesnt check all the hormones/neuros that are related to overall well being and sexual health?

Your Urologist assumed that your own natural T production was strong enough to restart T on its own without any AI or HCG* and
after months of TRT without any AI to control E2 and any Hcg to keep your balls from making any T on its own.

All the while not testing you either via blood, urine, saliva for scientific data to prove what was really
going on inside your body.

When on T replacement, the body recognises the exogenous testosterone and signals the pituitary to stop sending
signals to LH and FSH to stop making its own testosterone. Thats why people on TRT will have out of the range low
numbers of LH and FSH since the body has plenty of T from the outside source and doesnt make any on its own.

Now I think i read you were getting the T shots done once every 2 weeks ?

If it was once every 2 weeks(caveman approach) this would have caused massive spikes in your Estradiol(E2) levels
furthur shutting down your own T production as your body sees the high amount of Estrogen
and that itself shuts down T. Also giving you the effects of high E2 which can cause emotional issues and plenty of others.


What iam really concerned about is, that why on earth did your Urologist not check your levels of at least:

Total Testosterone
Bioavailable Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Estradiol
DHT
PSA (for more senior patients)
Prolactin

During t shots and 1 month after the Trt ?

There is no other way to know how your body is doing exactly without these tests.

You may be the lucky one and your E2 levels may have dropped to an optimal range and your LH and FSH
increased on its own without hcg/hmg and then your T production would be back up to the previous range before Trt
but we are just guessing with scientific data to prove.

My advice is to definetly get these hormones checked as it will tell you how your overall T production is doing
after your TRT without any Hcg or Ai to restart its own T production.

There will be an analysis done by a physician from ZRT on the test sheet provided as well as some
advice if your numbers are bad. Heres some of them :

http://www.zrtlab.com/Page.aspx?nid=401


I will upload a TRT article written by a Dr John Crissler who is a leading Anti Aging expert to back up
what Ive said above.

*HCG

Benefits of HCG supplementation:
1. Aesthetic maintenance of testicular size
2. Maintaining activity of testicular Leydig cells - promoting natural testosterone production - preventing primary hypogonadism
3. Improving sex drive greatly (perhaps more so than just with testosterone replacement

Written by a Physician, Psychiatrist, Behavioral Neuroendocrinology, Immunology, and Nutrition = Psychiatry in Dr Romeo B. Mariano.

I use the labs mentioned as it has been recommened by either Dr Mariano, Dr Shippen or Dr Crissler
on the Anabolicminds and mesomorphosis forums. They are regarded pretty highly in the Anti Aging field
and I do my best to read all of their posts to try pick up some knowledge from them.

Also many of the reputable posters on those forums recommended these labs and there is a few more to
pick from.

That took me over a hour as had orgasm today and was feeling the effects of POIS , got it done though.

Depression. I will look up on Dr Mariano & Dr Shippen & Dr Crisslers posts for what hormones,
neuros, lifestyles, diets etc that effects depression. I too suffered from this due to POIS.

My memory is bad today from POIS as Ive read up alot on this  but will re gather and post.



 

Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1065 on: 19/08/2008 00:52:06 »


TRT -A RECIPE FOR SUCCESS-


       by --John Crisler, DO

File to large so here is a link for you demografx :

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/men-s-health-forum/trt-a-recipe-success-19856.html
 

Offline questforlife

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1066 on: 19/08/2008 01:07:14 »
Welcome Questforlife. Thnaks your for your very very good post.
About your cortisol test :
Did you made it days following after ejaculation ?
I think the flu-like state can be a sign of cortisol depletion.
My current diet help me to reduce symptoms.
Michael talked about a very interesting supplment : cortitrol.

I think we should test only one supplement at time if possible.

Scientific study on cortitrol :
http://www.nsekmall.com/images/datacenter/train/FORM23_1.pdf [nofollow]

Anxiety, panic attacks and hormones:
http://www.gjpsy.uni-goettingen.de/gjp-article-howard.pdf [nofollow]

DHEA can be converted to cortisol



I did not do the tests within days of ejaculation.  I am thinking about having the tests done again as it has been almost 1 year since these results.  It would most definitely be interesting to see the difference especially if the tests are taken after ejaculation to see if cortisol levels are effected. Of course I will post my results for all who are interested to see. 

As from today I have started taking garlic supplement based on comment made on earlier posts in this thread (plus the fact it seems to have many other health benefits)

I will post my findings with any noticeable effects.
 

Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1067 on: 19/08/2008 01:58:41 »
A good post about what hormones/neuros causes depression  by Dr Mariano :


Originally Posted by chip douglas


Q.

Dr. John told me that depression in and of itself increases pro inflammatory cytokines inhibiting both GH and Testosterone.

So this would mean Dysthymia can be a cause for low TT in the 400 range ?

Why then if depression can bring on low T, that we see so many men on TRT ?

My point among those men (if my above correlation is not wrong) with low T, part may originate from depression, while others from overt low T.

Marianco, would you be so kind as to shed some light on this, so I better understand which comes first ?

Thankfully

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A.

It is not really useful to determine which came first. It is more useful to determine what is deficient or in excess to indicate what treatment would be best.

Depression can have multiple contributing factors. There may be a genetic tendency for having low serotonin levels, for example. There may be problems involving other neurotransmitters, hormones, and immune system cytokines such as dopamine, norepinephrine, GABA, glutamate, PEA, thyroid hormone, estrogens, testosterone, progesterone, DHEA, etc., etc. Only one of these contributing factors is testosterone. Depression can reduce GH and testosterone production. However, depression is often the endpoint of multiple system problems occurring at the same time.

Testosterone decreases with age, generally past the age of 30 in men. Depression does not always occur. A low testosterone may not be due to depression so much as genetic fators and age and other hormone imbalances, etc.. Testosterone deficiency can thus be also a multiple system problem, aside from age-related decline.

In many patients, a multiple system treatment would best address their problems. It would be nice if adding testosterone will solve everything. But this obviously is not the case with many patients. They still have problems even with high testosterone levels.
 

Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1068 on: 19/08/2008 02:04:41 »
Another precise and clear informative post by Dr Mariano on how and what
neuros/hormones causes depression :

Originally Posted by chip douglas

Q.
Hi Marianco,

In his last book titled : ''Younger you'', Dr. Eric Braverman http://www.pathmed.com/ writes that Serotonin deficiency will often lead to depression and and as a result lead to other health issues such as :

Accelerated calcification
Lower sex drive, triggering andropause and menopause
Lowering of Testosterone leading to andropause
Lower estrogen, progesterone
Weaken the immune system
Accelerate skin aging

A. By Dr Mariano

This is one of several possible pathways. But it is too vague - the links are not clearly made. The problem is that there is no explanation as to why this all occurs - for example, what pathways are involved.

Looking at things from my point of view - that the mind is a fluid circuit involving multiple chemical messengers and multiple possible metabolic cascades/pathways:

If one specifically kills off serotonin-producing neurons - for example, by using Ecstasy or Fenfluramine (part of the FenPhen tablet that is now off the market) - then one can envison one possible cascade (out of many):

1. A serotonin deficit leads to a reduction in thyroid hormone production (which depends on serotonin, one of many cofactors).
2. A serotonin deficit also leads to loss of control over norepinephrine production (since serotonin neurons help reduce norepinephrine production from norepinephrine neurons) - leading to an increase in norepinephrine production.
3. The reduction in thyroid hormone production leads to a reduction in steroid hormone production from the testes - particularly a reduction in testosterone production, then estrogen production.
4. The increase in norepinephrine production leads to an increase in ACTH production, which leads to an increase in adrenal cortex hormone production.
5. Over time the chronic increase in norepinephrine production leads to adrenal fatigue, and reduced adrenal cortex hormone production.
6. Adrenal fatigue leads to a reduction in progesterone, DHEA, Cortisol, Pregnenolone, Aldosterone, testosterone, estrogen production.
7. Adrenal fatigue, lower thyroid hormone levels, lower testosterone levels leads to even higher norepinephrine production.
8. Lower thyroid and adrenal hormone production leads to an increase in inflammatory versus anti-inflammatory signals on the immune system, leading to an increase in inflammatory responses.
9. The increase in inflammatory responses leads to the development of atherosclerosis - and calcification - of the arteries.
10. The increase in inflammatory responses versus antiinflammatory responses leads to weakening of the immune system - inflammation, for example, in barrier cells such as the skin, allows pathogenic bacteria and viruses an easier entry into the body. Inflammation precedes infections and various diseases.
11. The reduction in thyroid, DHEA, testosterone and the general increase in inflammatory signals leads to a reduction in IGF-1 production from growth hormone in the liver.
12. The reduced production of estrogens, IGF-1, and thyroid hormone leads to an increase aging of the skin.
13. Lower thyroid hormone can lead to lower serotonin, lower dopamine, lower GABA production, and a further increase in norepinephrine production.
14. Low thyroid, testosterone, GABA, dopamine, adrenal hormone production, and higher norepinephrine production can lead to a reduction in sex drive.

I do not necessarily agree with the notion that lowering sex drive triggers andropause or menopause, or that lowering testosterone leads to andropause. These are overgeneralizations.

Andropause is an age-related phenomenon - due to age-related decline in the pituitary’s ability to make LH or due to age-related decline in the testes’ ability to produce testosterone.

Andropause is not necessarily related to a serotonin deficit - since a serotonin deficit can occur at any age, be present due to genetics (thus one is born serotonin deficient), or be induced due to drug abuse or medication adverse effects, etc. If Andropause is specifically due to a serotonin deficit, this would lead to the nonsensical scenario of a male newborn with born with a serotonin deficit being diagnosed with andropause.

Similarly, menopause is an age-related phenomenon, not necessarily related to a serotonin deficit. Rather is is related to the end of the ovaries’ ability to produce eggs. Women are born with a limited number of eggs. If the last egg is ovulated or the egg-shell surrounded the woman’s eggs become so fibrous over time that the egg cannot get out, then menopause starts.

Also, the pathway delineated above is just one of several possible scenarios. Thus any given person may take a different path with a different outcome.

For example, if a serotonin deficit occurs, then dopamine production is unleashed since serotonin production leads to a reduction in dopamine production from dopamine producing cells. Serotonin and Dopamine are joined at the hip in production.

The increase in dopamine may then lead to an increase in testosterone production, an increase in sex drive, etc. An increase in testosterone production may then increase thyroid hormone production (though it can also reduce it in some men). The end-point may then be very different or is opposite to what was previously described.

Lower serotonin may lead to depressed mood, but then it can also lead to a non-depressed mood depending on how high dopamine and it’s metabolic cascades go. Lower serotonin may then alternatively lead to violent behavior in some people (e.g. in XYY chromasome disease, the men have lower serotonin levels and tend to be more violent).

Given the possible pathways involved, it would then be up to the physician treating the patient to try to see which pathways the patient may be going through. This allows the physician to then see where the pathophysiology of illness is, then custom design a treatment to address that particular patient’s situation. One has to dance with the patient's responses. To a physician, this is like playing jazz. The ability to improvise is the mark of a good physician.
 

Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1069 on: 19/08/2008 02:09:37 »
An interesting post by Dr Mariano in how Fish oil can help depression as well
as other things :


Originally Posted by chip douglas
Q.

Is it known whether fish oils generally affect more serotonin over dopamine ? I know they can increase both, and which one will be most enhanced may vary from one individual to another, as with other supps. or drugs, but generally speaking, is what I'd like to know.

When i take fish oil, my well-being is enhanced significantly, I feel mellower, less in a hurry, my sex drive picks up, I have better concentration, and smile more. No doubt fish oil's good stuff.

Thanks

-------------------------------------------------------------------

A. By Dr Mariano

I haven't seen data one way or the other.

Fish Oil has numerous mechanisms of action. Directly increasing sertonin or dopamine is not one of them. An increase in dopamine or serotonin may be final effect in the chain of responses to the presence Fish Oil. However, I haven't seen measurements.

Fish Oil can help stabilize mood and reduce depression. Which of its numerous mechaisms of action does this is nto known to me yet.

The dose is important since Omega-3-fatty acids are in a balance with Omega-6-fatty acids when it comes to function. For example, Omega-3-fatty acids results in a reduction in inflammation, while Omega-6-fatty acid results in an increase in inflammation. Both functions need to be in a balance for wellness. Inflammation can be good or bad.

When treating bipolar disorder, for example, with fish oil, at a certain dose, it helps stabilize mood and reduce depression. At higher doses, it may destabilize mood and worsen a person's condition. Again, the watchword is balance.

---------------------------------------------------

I experience the same effects from the above poster chip douglas from taking fish oil plus it helps
tremendiously with my joints, tendons and overall inflammation.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1070 on: 19/08/2008 02:18:26 »
MICHAEL

I do recall now that my T-levels were tested before and after, and did PSA's during TRT. When T got too high, I quit the T. It just became a pain in the neck.

This was all my idea, it wasn't classic TRT. The docs agreed to my testing T against POIS. And privately, I wanted to try a boost in libido, which I got.

I'm in the same place as before, aging, low libido, ED. Too tired to try anything else at this stage.

Levitra cures 75% of my POIS, but after 30+ years of POIS I lean now toward near-celibacy. I don't even want 25% of that stupid POIS!

But I enjoy helping here. And I think there is something in "my Levitra story" that can help others.

Many thanks, Michael!  
 

Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1071 on: 19/08/2008 02:20:20 »
demografx, I made a comment earlier on how E2 effects libido and overall sexual health.
Here is a post made by Dr Mariano on how Estradiol(E2) effects sex drive:

What estradiol level is best for any individual often needs to be determined by trial and error. It is unique for each individual. Most do best around 30 pg/ml. But some do best at lower and higher levels. For example, I have a 65 y.o. patient with a total testosterone of 840 ng/dl and an estradiol of 47 pg/ml. He's having the time of his life - able to make love numerous times each night - after more than a decade of having no sex. The estradiol level works for him without side effects. Some may do better with much loser levels of estradiol - the response is highly individualistic.


 

Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1072 on: 19/08/2008 02:21:51 »
MICHAEL

I do recall now that my T-levels were tested before and after, and did PSA's during TRT. When T got too high, I quit the T. It just became a pain in the neck.

This was all my idea, it wasn't classic TRT. The docs agreed to my testing T against POIS. And privately, I wanted to try a boost in libido, which I got.

I'm in the same place as before, aging, low libido, ED. Too tired to try anything else at this stage.

Levitra cures 75% of my POIS, but after 30+ years of POIS I lean now toward near-celibacy. I don't even want 25% of that stupid POIS!

But I enjoy helping here. And I think there is something in "my Levitra story" that can help others.

Many thanks, Michael!  


You are very much welcome demografx.

Oh boy ... 30 years of suffering POIS, that is pure torture and no wonder you have those feelings now.
Congrats on your success with Levitra. I will ask Dr Mariano how Levitra may possibly alter the neuro/hormone
pathways to help the POIS symptoms.

If you dont mind us knowing, how old are you now?

« Last Edit: 19/08/2008 02:25:03 by Michael8028 »
 

Offline Michael8028

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1073 on: 19/08/2008 02:28:02 »
Terrific! And I'm glad you said placebo effect. I was fooled by testosterone shot. It "worked" beautifully the first time, then pfffttt.
Placebo effect is good, though, it shows how badly the body/mind wants to recover!

I think the first shot of testosterone really does work and makes you feel so much better. But I too found that it quickly stops working, within 10 days. I think this is because it initially suppresses stress hormones such as cortisol and CRF, but the stress hormone circuit recovers back.

I think I found the answer for this :

Post by Dr Mariano :

Conversely, when one is deprived of testosterone (and hence dopamine) for long periods of time due to hypogonadism, one can get a high during the first few weeks of testosterone treatment since the brain becomes supersensitive to dopamine when it has been deprived of it (e.g. making more dopamine receptors to pick up the weaker dopamine signals). Unfortunately, as the brain then gets use to the higher dopamine levels, it will develop some tolerance, and libido will drop off - though we often wish that hopefully a good amount remains.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1074 on: 19/08/2008 03:28:39 »

If you dont mind us knowing, how old are you now?


Michael, I'm 62 going on 18 ;D
 

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1074 on: 19/08/2008 03:28:39 »

 

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