[Quasar]

Quasar, very interesting!

Thanks demografx! I've updated the above Reply some minutes ago with more info!

[FinalPanic]

Could POIS be a severe form of migraine? Next time I may try the anti-sickness tablets for Migraine and see if helps with the awful nausea feelings I get. After four days my POIS has lifted - it is like entering the eye of a storm - all calm and clear, but a bit battered around the edges. It is amazing how it just fades out.

[daveman]

So, it may be that it is OK to take niacin regularly--that is, even if you build up tolerance so that it no longer causes a flush, it might still be able to prevent POIS because it is still 'using up' the histamine.

I don't think POIS is about histamine though.  Have antihistamines worked for anyone? 

Though perhaps it is also depleting other things involved in immune reactions..

I was prescribed antihistamines (Allegra 180mg/day and Cyproheptadine 4 mg/day) and not only didn't they work, but I suffered from suicidal thoughts during POIS.  I am convinced that the serotonin/dopamine levels are significantly suppressed causing the depression/brain fog/anxiety/anti-social symptoms we experience.

About the serotonin/dopamine levels, did anyone get it tested in blood? I think so. It would be interesting to know  serotonin and dopamine blood levels before an O., and after an O.

And also, very important, to have a brain SPECT showing serotonin and dopamine levels. This is crucial. But it is difficult to justify to a doctor such an expensive technique...

The following is almost common knowledge now!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12161024

Depressive-like behavior is the most profound manifestation of autoimmunity-associated behavioral syndrome in lupus-prone MRL-lpr mice. This led to the hypothesis that chronic autoimmunity and inflammation alter the activity of central serotonergic and dopaminergic systems.

........

These results are consistent with the hypothesis that imbalanced neurotransmitter regulation of the hypothalamus-pituitary axis plays an important role in the etiology of behavioral dysfunction induced by systemic autoimmune disease.

[Quasar]

Following the previous argumentation, Niacin seems to work as an "acute" antimigraine medication, in the sense that  because it acts at the peripheral serotonin level, it has a short term effect.

So, Niacin could be included under the family of triptans or NSAIDs. However, triptains are not prophylactic, while NSAIDs and Niacin can be considered prophylactic. I believe Niacin is more effective, at least to us, because it really raises peripheral serotonin levels, while not raising brain serotonin.

So, we should find similar alternatives to Niacin, that is, drugs or supplements that raise the peripheral serotonin level without raising brain serotonin. However, the bad news is that, they also may behave as Niacin in the sense that the effects will be only short-term. But maybe we find some kind of sustained-release forms.

On the other hand, above we have discussed about "acute" antimigraine medications. What can we find similar to Niacin in the "preventive" family of antimigraine medications?

I have found that some beta-blockers, and some serotonin antagonists, have potential to have a similar effect to Niacin:

Some beta-blockers:
The action of migraine preventive drugs is uncertain, but it is believed to result from the inhibition of β1- mediated mechanism. β- blockade results in inhibition of 5-HT release from the monoaminergic nuclei (raphe nuclei) and of the NE from the locus coeruleus to prevent disturbances in vascular control systems. In conclusion, only pure β- blockers (antagonists) will have a prophylactic migraine effect such as propranolol, metoprolol, and Nadolol. The orally given doses of metoprolol for example start with 100 mg 1x a day and can be gradually increased to 2x 100 mg a day.

So, this confirms my theory from yesterday that metoprolol and nebivolol, among others, can be interesting to us.

Some Serotonin Antagonists:
Prophylaxis migraine such as methysergide (Sansert®), methylergonovine (methergine®), cyproheptadine (Periactin®), pizotifen (Pizo- A®), and mianserin (Mianeurin®) are all potent serotonergic antagonists. They are effectively acting on 5-HT2A/B and 5-HT2C receptors. Methysergide and methylergonovine belong to ergot alkaloids family, which will be discussed extensively in section.  Cyproheptadine, pizotifen, and mianserin contain a tricyclic system; two aromatic rings with 7- membered ring in between that has different tethers (figure 18). Serotonin antagonists seem to have the same effect on the raphe nuclei and locus coeruleus as that of the β- blockers.


Has anyone tried some of these Serotonin Antagonists? I find them very interesting (maybe they are even more powerful than beta-blockers) because they act directly on serotonin receptors responsible of migraine in the brain.

Hope this helps!!

I've used this source, among others: www.science.uva.nl/onderwijs/thesis/centraal/files/f446898714124130.doc -------->It's a really interesting article about migraines!

[Guthrie]

The welcome message contains important information that might be seen for the very first time, and may result in something great!
IMHO, there's no reason to shorten the welcome message.

I suppose I now agree with Demo for the reason that members familiar with the welcome message can simply scroll past it when they see it. It doesn't waste any time since it's not like you have to read the entire message each time you see it. Just takes maybe a second to scroll past it. But more importantly it provides new visitors all the info they need to know about the forum at a glance.

The welcome message is an absolutely fantastic part of the community that has built up here. I speak as someone who spends most of my life in a mental fog in which I find navigating this thread completely overwhelming. The welcome post is a great summary and place to start for people who are like me -- and it should stay that way.

On the other hand, it would be better if it were shorter, for the mere reason that it's pretty overwhelming as it is! Fewer links, for example to the Pyropeach PDF would make it easier to comprehend immediately (the PDF already has loads of other links and info). Try reading it from the perspective of someone who loses track of long sentences, paragraphs beyond 3 lines and skips beyond the post if he gets frustrated   (it took me years to realise that this was happening to me)

With regard to the debate over the length of the welcome post, it's probably important to remember that even if the welcome post were shorter, the Naked Scientist thread would still feel pretty 'cluttered' and hard to follow -- simply because it is just one single thread, and lots of different topics get thrown around.  No matter what the welcome message looks like (and we all might have different opinions about how it should look), this will still basically be the case.

So, in terms of the specific issue of things being easier to follow, perhaps the focus should be on the nice, new, organized POIS Forum with lots of lovely divisions between different topics! 

And where is that nice, new, organized forum?  Oh yes, right here: http://www.poiscenter.com/forums/index.php

[apostate801]

The welcome message contains important information that might be seen for the very first time, and may result in something great!
IMHO, there's no reason to shorten the welcome message.

I suppose I now agree with Demo for the reason that members familiar with the welcome message can simply scroll past it when they see it. It doesn't waste any time since it's not like you have to read the entire message each time you see it. Just takes maybe a second to scroll past it. But more importantly it provides new visitors all the info they need to know about the forum at a glance.

The welcome message is an absolutely fantastic part of the community that has built up here. I speak as someone who spends most of my life in a mental fog in which I find navigating this thread completely overwhelming. The welcome post is a great summary and place to start for people who are like me -- and it should stay that way.

On the other hand, it would be better if it were shorter, for the mere reason that it's pretty overwhelming as it is! Fewer links, for example to the Pyropeach PDF would make it easier to comprehend immediately (the PDF already has loads of other links and info). Try reading it from the perspective of someone who loses track of long sentences, paragraphs beyond 3 lines and skips beyond the post if he gets frustrated   (it took me years to realise that this was happening to me)

With regard to the debate over the length of the welcome post, it's probably important to remember that even if the welcome post were shorter, the Naked Scientist thread would still feel pretty 'cluttered' and hard to follow -- simply because it is just one single thread, and lots of different topics get thrown around.  No matter what the welcome message looks like (and we all might have different opinions about how it should look), this will still basically be the case.

So, in terms of the specific issue of things being easier to follow, perhaps the focus should be on the nice, new, organized POIS Forum with lots of lovely divisions between different topics! 

And where is that nice, new, organized forum?  Oh yes, right here: http://www.poiscenter.com/forums/index.php [nofollow]

And that forum seems cluttered too.  Too many categories to look at when there's not enough users/traffic to fill it. 


Not sure how Niacin is helping me, been taking 300 to 400mg of the nicotonic acid kind and can't seem to get the flush (darker skin)?  Get a slight headache like feeling that i usually get when recovering from POIS.  I guess it helps a little bit the lows aren't as low. 

[valtak2610]

I've been taking Niacin 200mg 2 times a day and it does help
against the type IV headache disorders - "migraine headaches" that would start 1-2 days after.
It is too early to review it's full impact - I hope it does not loose it's potency with time.

This is the non-time release variety. Tried the Time-Release
500mg - and those did not work.

The other thing that helped for me is Indomethacin 25mg - which postpones the
onset of the headache disorders.

On the triptan note, I have tried Frova 2.5 mg and they alleviate the headache, once a full bout
of head symptoms has commenced, but purely temporarily.

[Habibou]

I also tried Niacin 500 mg but it did not work for me, and I did not get the "flush" everybody is talking about... So I guess I had the "slow release version"! I will try to get the faster one, will update.

[Counterpoints]

And that forum seems cluttered too.  Too many categories to look at when there's not enough users/traffic to fill it. 

Yes, that's what I thought too.

[rob58]

Hi guys. Checking in after a long absence.  Have not had anything to contribute for along while, esp. since my medical knowledge is limited, but I have been reading the posts religiously. Very impressed with the ideas that have come up and with the overall quality of the discussions. Would like to bring up two issues. I have been one of longest sufferers on this forum.  I am now 53 years old and have suffered from pois since I was 14.  What I want to share with you can be good news or bad depending on your expectations, but over my almost 40 years of dealing with POIS it has gotten neither better nor worse, both in terms of intensity and duration. Brain fog, lethargy, aches, etc. all peaking at days two and three, just like they did in 1972.  Second issue is support for the NORD fund. I am committing to donating $50 for every $1000 in the fund until we hit our initial target of around 34K (so far donated $100 ...).  Seems to me that it takes only 20 of us to make a similar commitment, and we are there!  Demo et al., thanks for the support and work in support of the good cause.
Rob

[daveman]

And that forum seems cluttered too.  Too many categories to look at when there's not enough users/traffic to fill it. 

Yes, that's what I thought too.

For those of you who like the free flow, one thread feel, use: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=unread

This gives you a list of the latest posted items. You can read them just like they were on THIS forum. It's best for POISers who have trouble adapting to change.

Remember please, the idea at the other forum is to try to have the items more organized into categories for outside researchers and investigators.

[demografx]

For those of you who like the free flow, one thread feel, use: http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?action=unread

Thank you, daveman!

I was also concerned about this issue but now I see that the new forum can be viewed quickly.

On behalf of those who think similarly, I really appreciate your strenuous efforts to take our input into account and especially to raise our amateurish  one-thread forum to a very professional alternate discussion venue!

[demografx]

Hi guys. Checking in after a long absence.  Have not had anything to contribute for along while, esp. since my medical knowledge is limited, but I have been reading the posts religiously. Very impressed with the ideas that have come up and with the overall quality of the discussions. Would like to bring up two issues. I have been one of longest sufferers on this forum.  I am now 53 years old and have suffered from pois since I was 14.  What I want to share with you can be good news or bad depending on your expectations, but over my almost 40 years of dealing with POIS it has gotten neither better nor worse, both in terms of intensity and duration. Brain fog, lethargy, aches, etc. all peaking at days two and three, just like they did in 1972.  Second issue is support for the NORD fund. I am committing to donating $50 for every $1000 in the fund until we hit our initial target of around 34K (so far donated $100 ...).  Seems to me that it takes only 20 of us to make a similar commitment, and we are there!  Demo et al., thanks for the support and work in support of the good cause.

Rob

Rob, I am speechless!!! Thank you so very much for brightening this lonely path of ours. You certainly made MY weekend!! [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] []

[demografx]

Some of you may not know of one of the links to this forum.

This link brings you back to the very last POIS post here at Naked Science Forum:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.new#new

Please bookmark it.

[Habibou]

I don't know if it was said but there are 4 types of Niacin : (french website/translation)
-nicotinamide
-hexaniacinate the inositol (also called inositol hexanicotinate or inositol   nicotinate)
-immediate-release niacin = the one we need creates 95% of the time a flush (often simply called niacin or fast-release niacin)
-niacin extended-release (or slow)

I guess I used (Nicobion) = nicotinamide which helped for 30% but no more, going to purchase the faster one definitively !

[demografx]

I don't know if it was said but there are 4 types of Niacin : (french website/translation)
-nicotinamide
-hexaniacinate the inositol (also called inositol hexanicotinate or inositol   nicotinate)
-immediate-release niacin = the one we need creates 95% of the time a flush (often simply called niacin or fast-release niacin)
-niacin extended-release (or slow)

I guess I used (Nicobion) = nicotinamide which helped for 30% but no more, going to purchase the faster one definitively !

Habibou, do you know about Niaspan? (Extended release niacin).

I take 500mg daily for cholesterol.

[Itsthatskater]

Hey Guys Just checking back in with some more of my symptons hopefully to help you and myself!

Ill give you my symptons on a scale of 1 being the least bad to 5 being the worst

Sinus problems-3
Physical Weakness-4
Mental Weakness-5
Brain Fog- (Sometimes in school i felt i could concentrate better but last time I had POIS I had terrible Brain Fog and couldnt remember the day as well as normally when i had it) 4
Lack Of Motivation-5

Those are the worst effects I get on my body with Lack of Motivation and Physical and Mental Weaknesses being the worst.

I am considering asking my doctor about Testosterone Replacement therapy as well.

If anyone has any leads on how to fix any of my problems please let me know. It really feels unfair I cant live my life with a Sex life in it normally.

Let me also say i feel alot more Cardiac Conguestion too

[demografx]

I am considering asking my doctor about Testosterone Replacement therapy [TRT] as well.

Just in case you don't know my story, TRT has given me 80% POIS relief, after 35 years of POIS torture.

[demografx]

For all our new visitors and friends!


Our new POIS Forum - architectural genius: "daveman" - for detailed subject-by-subject discussion!
http://www.POISCenter.com/forums/index.php


Our 4-year-old POIS thread here at Naked Science Forum will also always remain open for newcomers, for general unstructured discussion, and historical research of the 10,000+ postings here since 2007.


We started a POIS Research Fund to boost our attack on The POIS Monster! Explained here:
http://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=125.0


We raised $2,150 in just the first 2 weeks, with much more pledged!


And your POIS fund donation is most welcome here:
http://rarediseases.org/about/support/research-donations

[demografx]

Could POIS be a severe form of migraine? Next time I may try the anti-sickness tablets for Migraine and see if helps with the awful nausea feelings I get. After four days my POIS has lifted - it is like entering the eye of a storm - all calm and clear, but a bit battered around the edges. It is amazing how it just fades out.

I agree with your perception of that strange POIS feeling of "fading out amazingly".