The Naked Scientists

The Naked Scientists Forum

Author Topic: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)  (Read 6444417 times)

Offline urano75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17900 on: 12/03/2013 10:08:06 »
Folks, let me share what's going on with my niacin experiments.
I'm still using a batch of few-months-old 500mg full-flush niacin (Nicotinic Acid), while I'm waiting to receive fresh 100mg caspules.
It's been a couple of times that I wake-up early morning and, being sure this way that I've had enough fasting hours and I'm far from any other supplements, I take 500mg of that niacin and wait in bed for the flush to happen. Well, something very weak happens 30 mins after, but eventually I fall deeply asleep again. Then I wake up (later than usual) in the morning 2-3 hours after, and a small flush happens again as I take my supplements or eat something. In other words, I never get a full-blown flush this way, especially on empty stomach when it's supposed to happen.

500mg are quite a bit, and I'm using this big amount because it's not so fresh, the flush doesn't occur right away nonetheless.
Also, the fact that a small flush occurs few hours after when I eat something means that some of that niacin is still around, waiting to be fully metabolized, is my assumption wrong? As if niacin metabolization is somehow slowed down. Or is it normal this way?
Finally, I slept in and didn't wake-up very refreshed. Not so unusual for me, but something to be considered anyway.

I'll wait for the fresh batch and test with smaller doses, but does this all say anything to any of you?
Thanks,
Andrea
 

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17901 on: 13/03/2013 14:02:09 »
Interesting slideshow on excitotoxins, methylation, glutathione and glutamate.
http://dramyyasko.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/17-A1-Excitotoxins.pdf
Yasko seems to believe that glutamate imbalances cause seizures in autistic kids.
While I'm a bit skeptical about some of these claims, there are some useful papers referenced and I do think there's something to the idea that methylation problems (and related like Vit D deficiency) lead to systemic diseases by preventing the body from balancing levels of amino acids (such as glutamic acid) and minerals (e.g. calcium)

She says that she's seen symptoms such as vision problems, migraines and tension, bladder problems and irritable bowel which reminds me of POIS as many sufferers have talked about similar symptoms.
 

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17902 on: 13/03/2013 16:52:41 »
Quote
Carnosine attenuates mast cell degranulation and histamine release induced by oxygen-glucose deprivation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18064721
 

Offline urano75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17903 on: 13/03/2013 17:26:18 »
Interesting slideshow on excitotoxins, methylation, glutathione and glutamate.
http://dramyyasko.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/17-A1-Excitotoxins.pdf
Yasko seems to believe that glutamate imbalances cause seizures in autistic kids.
While I'm a bit skeptical about some of these claims, there are some useful papers referenced and I do think there's something to the idea that methylation problems (and related like Vit D deficiency) lead to systemic diseases by preventing the body from balancing levels of amino acids (such as glutamic acid) and minerals (e.g. calcium)

She says that she's seen symptoms such as vision problems, migraines and tension, bladder problems and irritable bowel which reminds me of POIS as many sufferers have talked about similar symptoms.

I don't fully understand few points, but it's possibly because of my poor knowledge. Why proteins like whey are among the excitotoxins? Why L-Cystein can be an issue, and not NAC, and in what sense sulphur-containing aminos (thus including methionine) can cause glutammate excess, if I understand well? If limiting calcium will help limit inflammation, would vit D which improves calcium absorption and decreases calcium excretion be an issue? Is glutammine intake an issue, what decides if it will be to Glutammate or to GABA? Is supplementing magnesium and zinc always beneficial in this sense?
In few words, I don't fully get what the strategy for balancing glutamate/GABA would be, apart from obviously ingesting directly too much glutammate.
 

Offline fidalgo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17904 on: 13/03/2013 17:33:04 »
Folks, let me share what's going on with my niacin experiments.
I'm still using a batch of few-months-old 500mg full-flush niacin (Nicotinic Acid), while I'm waiting to receive fresh 100mg caspules.
It's been a couple of times that I wake-up early morning and, being sure this way that I've had enough fasting hours and I'm far from any other supplements, I take 500mg of that niacin and wait in bed for the flush to happen. Well, something very weak happens 30 mins after, but eventually I fall deeply asleep again. Then I wake up (later than usual) in the morning 2-3 hours after, and a small flush happens again as I take my supplements or eat something. In other words, I never get a full-blown flush this way, especially on empty stomach when it's supposed to happen.

500mg are quite a bit, and I'm using this big amount because it's not so fresh, the flush doesn't occur right away nonetheless.
Also, the fact that a small flush occurs few hours after when I eat something means that some of that niacin is still around, waiting to be fully metabolized, is my assumption wrong? As if niacin metabolization is somehow slowed down. Or is it normal this way?
Finally, I slept in and didn't wake-up very refreshed. Not so unusual for me, but something to be considered anyway.

I'll wait for the fresh batch and test with smaller doses, but does this all say anything to any of you?
Thanks,
Andrea

This happens with me to. For me is easiest get a flush if I take niacin and eat after this. It's normal to me have flush if I not eat after.

But niacin doesn't improve my symtoms, so I'm not a good example.
 

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17905 on: 13/03/2013 19:36:54 »
Interesting slideshow on excitotoxins, methylation, glutathione and glutamate.
http://dramyyasko.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/17-A1-Excitotoxins.pdf
Yasko seems to believe that glutamate imbalances cause seizures in autistic kids.
While I'm a bit skeptical about some of these claims, there are some useful papers referenced and I do think there's something to the idea that methylation problems (and related like Vit D deficiency) lead to systemic diseases by preventing the body from balancing levels of amino acids (such as glutamic acid) and minerals (e.g. calcium)

She says that she's seen symptoms such as vision problems, migraines and tension, bladder problems and irritable bowel which reminds me of POIS as many sufferers have talked about similar symptoms.

I don't fully understand few points, but it's possibly because of my poor knowledge. Why proteins like whey are among the excitotoxins? Why L-Cystein can be an issue, and not NAC, and in what sense sulphur-containing aminos (thus including methionine) can cause glutammate excess, if I understand well? If limiting calcium will help limit inflammation, would vit D which improves calcium absorption and decreases calcium excretion be an issue? Is glutammine intake an issue, what decides if it will be to Glutammate or to GABA? Is supplementing magnesium and zinc always beneficial in this sense?
In few words, I don't fully get what the strategy for balancing glutamate/GABA would be, apart from obviously ingesting directly too much glutammate.
Whey protein contains a lot of glutamine so I guess that's what she's getting at there.
N-Acetyl Cysteine has been shown to reduce the symptoms of both schizophrenia and bipolar disorder possibly by
Quote
modulation of NMDA glutamate receptors or by increasing glutathione
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetylcysteine#cite_note-26
However, she doesn't explain herself well here. NAC can increase levels of homocysteine. I would think that in anyone with MTHFR or MTRR mutations it should really be taken only with methylfolate and methylcobalamin. (which I do).
Vit D is required for testosterone and dopamine synthesis. Too much vitamin D combined with too much calcium will cause headaches. It may contribute to the excitotoxic effect of glutamine.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamic_acid
Quote
Glutamate transporters[11] are found in neuronal and glial membranes. They rapidly remove glutamate from the extracellular space. In brain injury or disease, they can work in reverse, and excess glutamate can accumulate outside cells. This process causes calcium ions to enter cells via NMDA receptor channels, leading to neuronal damage and eventual cell death, and is called excitotoxicity. The mechanisms of cell death include
Damage to mitochondria from excessively high intracellular Ca2+[12]
Glu/Ca2+-mediated promotion of transcription factors for pro-apoptotic genes, or downregulation of transcription factors for anti-apoptotic genes

On the other hand, too little may lead to other health and psychological problems. Testosterone helps manage inflammation. Every supplement has pros and cons. In terms of balancing glutamate then some practical steps may involve reducing consumption of foods with the MSG additive and foods high in glutamic acid. Whey protein which contains both calcium and glutamic acid may be a bad idea for someone experiencing migraines, tension headaches and eye control problems (such as strabismus).

It would seem safer to limit glutamate and glutamic acid intake (by not supplementing it or taking foods which are high in either) than limiting calcium. However, Nathan123's doctor suggested an alternative to limiting intake of calcium which was to take a selective calcium channel inhibitor (flunarazine) which he said himself, greatly reduced his POIS.

Glutamate Decarboxylase is the enzyme which produces GABA and CO2 from glutamate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamate_decarboxylase
Insufficient GAD production has been linked to several illnesses including bipolar disorder. GAD deficiency is treated by B6 as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyridoxal-phosphate is used as a co-factor (remember "active b6" is pyroxidal 5 phosphate or P5P).  I think those who benefit from b6 are benefiting from increased GAD activity, reducing glutamate. They're also lucky in that they don't have a CBS upregulation which is increased by b6, producing too much ammonia.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that zinc+b6 and methylfolate+mb12 are possibly all related treatments for a similar problem. The same problem that Nathan took flunarazine for.
 

Offline urano75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17906 on: 14/03/2013 19:47:17 »
Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that zinc+b6 and methylfolate+mb12 are possibly all related treatments for a similar problem. The same problem that Nathan took flunarazine for.

To keep it simple, maybe reguarly supplementing magnesium and Vit K2 would help with calcium excess related issues?
 

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17907 on: 14/03/2013 21:33:10 »
Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that zinc+b6 and methylfolate+mb12 are possibly all related treatments for a similar problem. The same problem that Nathan took flunarazine for.

To keep it simple, maybe reguarly supplementing magnesium and Vit K2 would help with calcium excess related issues?
Yes. Or using a multi without copper but with zinc and magnesium :) You can get K2 from eggs and I eat an egg a day.
 

Offline urano75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17908 on: 14/03/2013 22:01:22 »
Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that zinc+b6 and methylfolate+mb12 are possibly all related treatments for a similar problem. The same problem that Nathan took flunarazine for.

To keep it simple, maybe reguarly supplementing magnesium and Vit K2 would help with calcium excess related issues?
Yes. Or using a multi without copper but with zinc and magnesium :) You can get K2 from eggs and I eat an egg a day.

I eat 2 raw egg yolks everyday, but I supplement K2 anyway especially since I discovered elevated serum calcium. Possibly caused by D supplementation (to be determined).
 

Offline acronym

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17909 on: 15/03/2013 05:11:01 »
urano75
No I did not suffer from flu like symptoms all the time after an O like you do. That would be really bad, but there is a immunological effect going on for me. Whenever there were cold/flus going around (family, friends coworkers, passengers on the train, etc), I would be fine until I had an O, then I would always get the cold/flu the next day. With all the theories being discussed we need to remember that there seems to something wrong that is unique to the male biology. Why would being an under-methylator or weak adrenals not also cause women to have the POIS.
 

Offline urano75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17910 on: 15/03/2013 09:10:21 »
urano75
No I did not suffer from flu like symptoms all the time after an O like you do. That would be really bad, but there is a immunological effect going on for me. Whenever there were cold/flus going around (family, friends coworkers, passengers on the train, etc), I would be fine until I had an O, then I would always get the cold/flu the next day. With all the theories being discussed we need to remember that there seems to something wrong that is unique to the male biology. Why would being an under-methylator or weak adrenals not also cause women to have the POIS.

Male orgasm/ejaculation are demanding to the body. It's possible that they just reveal underlying issues.
In my case, recurring viral infections point to a weak immune system. I've been told I have a Citomegalovirus infection (which at least half of the people has). CMV is one of those herpes-like viruses which stay in the body for the life, but manifest themselves when the immune system is weakened for any reasons. It will eventually give flu-like symptoms. Another is the EBV (mononucleosis virus). Recurring viral infections are sometimes considered a cofactor in CFS (Cronic-Fatigue).
Another likely problem I was told I have is with dopamine production. Either insufficient tyrosine absorption or conversion. O temporarily depletes dopamine, and probably that's not recreated quick enough.
My point is that O is a stressor which the healthy body can easily manage, but the weakened body (whatever the cause) can not temporarily cope with. The weak link can be the immune system, the HPA, the enzymatic activity, whatever. People with these conditions will likely get POIS symptoms even after different stressors, if strong enough: overexercise, excessive sun exposure, sleep deprivation, strong emotional stress. At least this is my case.
 

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17911 on: 15/03/2013 11:04:01 »
Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that zinc+b6 and methylfolate+mb12 are possibly all related treatments for a similar problem. The same problem that Nathan took flunarazine for.

To keep it simple, maybe reguarly supplementing magnesium and Vit K2 would help with calcium excess related issues?
Yes. Or using a multi without copper but with zinc and magnesium :) You can get K2 from eggs and I eat an egg a day.

I eat 2 raw egg yolks everyday, but I supplement K2 anyway especially since I discovered elevated serum calcium. Possibly caused by D supplementation (to be determined).
Unless you have very high serum levels of vitamin D then it's overreaching to believe that you're taking too much vitamin D. You may simply be taking in too much calcium?
What's your diet like?
 

Offline urano75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17912 on: 15/03/2013 13:08:33 »
Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that zinc+b6 and methylfolate+mb12 are possibly all related treatments for a similar problem. The same problem that Nathan took flunarazine for.

To keep it simple, maybe reguarly supplementing magnesium and Vit K2 would help with calcium excess related issues?
Yes. Or using a multi without copper but with zinc and magnesium :) You can get K2 from eggs and I eat an egg a day.

I eat 2 raw egg yolks everyday, but I supplement K2 anyway especially since I discovered elevated serum calcium. Possibly caused by D supplementation (to be determined).
Unless you have very high serum levels of vitamin D then it's overreaching to believe that you're taking too much vitamin D. You may simply be taking in too much calcium?
What's your diet like?

It's not much about calcium dietary intake in my case. Serum calcium didn't change with or without 1-2g calcium supplementation.
When I had low D (25, I didn't absorb that brand) my serum calcium was normal (9.6).
Since I have "normal" D (80-85) my serum calcium is too high (10.80).
My diet hasn't changed in the meantime.
Not everyone agrees that D<100 is always OK.
Some believe that 45-50 is optimal. Not necessarily the more, the better.

http://drcarolyndean.com/2013/03/too-much-vitamin-d/?utm_source=0305-1&utm_medium=Email
http://chriskresser.com/beyond-paleo-5?inf_contact_key=d5a7e6d5b3d49ecbc3175db6ba0a6b9b64934cf564f390e39d82018e4aae6b8a

So I've cut down my D supplementation a bit, will shoot for 45-50 next labs, and let's see if serum calcium will eventually get back to normal.

Another interesting thing is that there is no way for me to bring D>35, even in the sunny italian summer. Either there is a problem in synthesizing it, or my body autoregulates not to bring serum calcium too high.

I'll never take anything for granted anymore when supplementing D, and will regularly take D and calcium labs.

The other option I've got to rule out, is that T3 therapy is somehow affecting my calcium metabolism.
 

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17913 on: 15/03/2013 15:59:16 »
T3 therapy? That's interesting. One of the main causes of elevated serum calcium is hyperparathyroidism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperparathyroidism
You could have this but have low vitamin D which masks it. See http://www.acssurgerynews.com/fileadmin/content_pdf/fpn/archive_pdf/vol37iss4/70214_main.pdf

I take around 5000-6000IU of vitamin D / day. How much were you taking?
 

Offline urano75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17914 on: 15/03/2013 16:29:20 »
T3 therapy? That's interesting. One of the main causes of elevated serum calcium is hyperparathyroidism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperparathyroidism
You could have this but have low vitamin D which masks it. See http://www.acssurgerynews.com/fileadmin/content_pdf/fpn/archive_pdf/vol37iss4/70214_main.pdf

I take around 5000-6000IU of vitamin D / day. How much were you taking?

I don't think I have hyperparathyroidism - hyperparathyroid adenoma. My PTH (Parathormone) is now on the floor, where it is supposed to be due to excess calcium:

Parathormone 3,3pg/ml *[12-72]
Calcium 10,80 *[8.6-10.7]
Phosphorus 4.70 [2.5-5.0]
Vit D3 85 [50-100]

When I had a lower D level (and before starting T3), it was:

Parathormone 15,4pg/ml [12-72]
Calcium 9,60 [8.6-10.7]
Phosphorus 4.30 [2.5-5.0]
Vit D 23 [50-100]

Don't you agree this would rule out a PT issue?

The elevated calcium has happened twice in a row in latest labs, even if T3 doses where very different and I stopped calcium supplementation in the meantime.
Too much T3 (hypethyroidism) can lead to elevated calcium and bone loss, but I don't feel hypethyroid and thyroid labs are not very indicative when on T3.
I don't get the link between T3 and hyperparathyroidism instead. I am going to have a DEXA scan anyway to check if osteopenia is an issue.

To say it all, I've had a (giant cell) bone tumor last year at right elbow and eventually a surgery for it. So PTH level is one of the things I checked to rule out a PT adenoma. As you see life can be complex (at least mine).

If you have other ideas on this tricky situation feel free to tell me, if it becomes too specific and a bit off topic you can message me.

I think in fact I told you the story of my D dosing in a pvt message. I experimented many ways to D dosing.
I've seen the paradox of low serum D levels after 10000/20000UI daily (couldn't absorb that brand/batch).
I've also tried megadoses of 100000UI every 20 days (equivalent to 5000UI) and it worked, but I was perplexed by the possible spikes and valleys.
Then, before the last lab, I preferred a steady 5000UI daily (and I could absorb that).
Now if I've cut it it down to 5000UI every 2 days (equivalent to 2500UI daily), which I'll possibly suspend for awhile before next labs (I will survive)
I want D to decrease on purpose to see if calcium will eventually get normal. Or it is T3 that's messing up things (unlikely, but to be proved).

If you are taking 5000/6000UI that might be perfect for you, I just suggest you check your D levels and possibly serum calcium regularly and don't rely just on suggested dosage, you never know how much you absorb, how much you produce from sunshine etc...  Taking magnesium, zinc and K2 can be a good idea anyway.




 

Offline nathan123

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 106
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17915 on: 16/03/2013 14:43:57 »
Hi everyone,

I took zinc and vit B 6 tab as suggested by herman only for 3 days.  During that day, my blood pressure was gone to 160 and doctors told that it shows your zinc and Vit B6 are normal and there is no need to take supplements and he confirmed that it is not related to my POIS.

Later, I consulted, the another doctor, (new) explained all the symtoms and he told he knows how to cure this problem.  He give me scientific reason for the POIS He suggested me the tablet for one month.  I started taking it,  For first one week, I found slight relief, from second week onwards, POIS started diminishing and at the end of second week, my entire POIS cured.  Presently I am in end of one month and there is no POIS symtoms at all.  Yesterday I had three o's and today three. nothing happens.  It seems I am cured. 

But in last several occassions, i cured for first one week by medicine and POIS used to bounce back.  But this time that does not happen and it is already 15 days, I am out of POIS.  Now, I am enjoying normal mental health in last 7 years.  For last 7 years, I was in continuos POIS except some break for a week.  I wanted to wait another 15 days and confirm that there is no POIS bounce back on me, then I will post the treatments taken by me, with scientific reason.  I will be back on March 1st with happy news. 

Friends cure for POIS is very very simple basic thing, but all of us here we forget, finally form that doctor, i came to know about this as he had experience of some patients some patients facing POIS due to that proble.


 

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17916 on: 16/03/2013 14:57:16 »
Yes that would appear to rule out hyperparathyroidism. All I know about T3 and hyperparathyroidism is that the latter doesn't appear to lead to significant changes in serum levels of the former (i.e. T3). Whether exogenous T3 which raises T3 levels has any effect on the release of Calcitonin by the thyroid, I don't know. Remember that the parathyroid is in charge of raising serum calcium levels via parathyroid hormone which does a range of things including increasing vitamin D aborption.
Good explanation here http://www.patient.co.uk/health/the-thyroid-and-parathyroid-glands

I don't know if the T3 rate limiting feedback loop affects calcitonin. These are difficult questions and it's tough to find publications that explore this.

I know some endocrinologists don't give T3 at all. They just prescribe synthroid / T4.

I don't understand the next bit. You say that "Too much T3 (hypethyroidism) can lead to elevated calcium and bone loss" but you say that you don't feel hyperthyroid. What does feeling hyperthyroid mean? I know 2 people with graves disease and everyone else felt they were behaving manically but they thought they were fine.
I found your PM about Vitamin D dosing. I must admit, I don't remember every PM I get :)

I may not absorb vit D very effectively due to mutations affecting VDR. Perhaps you do. I've never tried the kinds of megadoses you did. Perhaps this is Off Topic :) but it's interesting all the same.
 

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17917 on: 16/03/2013 15:02:32 »
Interesting article on N Acetylcysteine and its action on glutamate receptors.
The paper is called
N-acetylcysteine in psychiatry: current therapeutic evidence and potential mechanisms of action

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3044191/
One of the key quotations is in the Glutamate section:
Quote
Cysteine assists in the regulation of neuronal intra- and extracellular exchange of glutamate through the cystine–glutamate antiporter. Whereas this antiporter is ubiquitous throughout all cell types, in the brain it is preferentially located on glial cells.25 The dimer, cystine, is taken up by astrocytes and exchanged for glutamate, which is released into the extracellular space. This free glutamate appears to stimulate inhibitory metabotropic glutamate receptors on glutamatergic nerve terminals and thereby reduce the synaptic release of glutamate.26 Given that relation, the amount of cysteine in the system as well as the feedback via GSH production by neurons may directly regulate the amount of glutamate present in the extracellular space
GSH = Glutathione.
So what this is saying is that NAC may actually reduce the excitotoxic effects of glutatamate. Might be why the B's and NAC are working for me.
 

Offline urano75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17918 on: 16/03/2013 15:59:42 »
Kurtosis,
it's OK for me to speak about any subject in public, I'm new here and don't know what the rules are about this :-)

I don't need T4, my thyroid gland makes enough of it. I have a reverse T3 (rT3) overconversion problem: too much T4 goes into the inactive form of rT3 rather than into T3 where it should. Excessive rT3 uses up cellular T3 receptors and eventually not enough thyroid hormone can be used at cellular levels.
My thyroid works right now (but I had low thyroid hormones 2 years ago being adrenals in bad shape and probably iodine deficient), it produces enough T4 (actually top limit) but it ends up "wasted" for this conversion problem.
There are several reasons for that: one is cortisol imbalances (low, high, mix of high and low), which is typical of adrenal fatigue and dysfunction. Another can be low iron (which I had at a certain point, but not anymore now). Other possibilities of thyroid hormones resistance at tissues level are unclear. Regardless, the way to provide cells the thyroid hormones they need in cases like this is either to correct the cortisol/iron issues or to take straight T3 (not T4 or NDT in my case).

It's a bit complex and controversial (as most of these subjects I dare add), here are some resources to get more information:

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/
http://thyroid-rt3.com/

I've been on T3 for 4 months now, specifically on CT3M (Cyrcadian T3 Method), to try recovering a proper adrenal function and to clear out excess rT3.
This is the book that describes CT3M: http://recoveringwitht3.com/

If I take too much T3 and become hyperthyroid, the following happens: high heart rate (>100), high temperatures (>37.2C), feeling wired, sleep problems, weight loss, heat intolerance. If I take too little temperatures become low and unstable and I feel more fatigued.

T4 (Synthroid) works only for people with low T4 output (e.g. due to Hashimoto's), no T4-->T3 conversion problems, and no T3 resistance at cellular levels. That's why sometimes T4 therapy miserably fails, even though blood levels of TSH, FT4 and FT3 are "perfect". Most endos cure the values and not the symptoms, and the patient keeps feeling hypo. But numbers are perfect and so it must be in their brains. Doesn't make a lot of sense to lots of patients who have felt a lot better with NDT (Natural Desiccated Thyroid), T4/T3 mix or T3 alone. On the other side T3 is a powerful and difficult hormone to work with, requires lots of dedication and patience to find the right number, time and size of doses.

I've never checked calcitonin along with PTH and it will be a good idea to do so in next labs.

D megadoses were easy to be used (1 every 20 days), a doctor of mine said me they were OK because D is fat soluble hence the excess would be stored in fat tissue and eventually released later on as needed. But when I saw high serum calcium I tried to make it as simple as possible and return to steady daily doses. It actually didn't make a difference in labs, but I don't know what it happens day by day between one dose and the other...
 

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17919 on: 16/03/2013 16:06:03 »
Yes, I understand now. That  rT3 theory is controversial but then again, this is the POIS forum. There are rules but I'm sure we all cross them at times possibly without even knowing it.
So long as people don't recommend treatments which are dangerous, assume the position of someone's doctor, speak abusively to other posters or seek to promote an organisation they're affiliated with (particularly without acknowledging the latter) then most other stuff is fine :)
 

Offline kurtosis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17920 on: 16/03/2013 16:06:52 »
It's St Patrick's day tomorrow and I'm Irish so a preemptive happy "Paddy's Day" to you all.
 

Offline urano75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17921 on: 16/03/2013 16:44:31 »
Yes, I understand now. That  rT3 theory is controversial but then again, this is the POIS forum. T

I can say that T3 has helped me feel somewhat  better up to a certain point. Clearly not completely well (I wouldn't be here).
 

Offline B_Daniel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 288
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17922 on: 16/03/2013 20:14:25 »
Urano, thanks for the Thyroid explanation.  As I've discussed with you offline, I seem to have thyroid readings similar to you, with RT3 levels above range.  Consequently my Free T3 : RT3 ratio is super low.  As you touched upon, the medical community disagrees about the role RT3 plays in our bodies and many doctors don't think that high levels indicate a problem.  That said, the fact that supplemental T3 helps you suggests otherwise.  I wish more POISers had their RT3 levels tested, as it would be helpful to know whether high RT3 is a trend among us.  I'm not quite ready to try supplemental T3 as that seems like a big step to me, but maybe one day.
 

Offline B_Daniel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 288
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17923 on: 16/03/2013 20:27:19 »
....... It seems I am cured. 

But in last several occassions, i cured for first one week by medicine and POIS used to bounce back.  But this time that does not happen and it is already 15 days, I am out of POIS.  Now, I am enjoying normal mental health in last 7 years.  For last 7 years, I was in continuos POIS except some break for a week.  I wanted to wait another 15 days and confirm that there is no POIS bounce back on me, then I will post the treatments taken by me, with scientific reason.  I will be back on March 1st with happy news. 



While you've been temporarily "cured" from 2-3 different things over the last 6 months, I will say that A.) You totally respect the 2 week rule, and B.) You always let us know as soon as one of your announced cures has stopped working.  And for that I'll always trust your recommendations.  I'm looking forward to your next update.  My fingers are crossed that your treatment is sustainable!
« Last Edit: 16/03/2013 20:36:36 by B_Daniel »
 

Offline urano75

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17924 on: 16/03/2013 21:01:35 »
Urano, thanks for the Thyroid explanation.  As I've discussed with you offline, I seem to have thyroid readings similar to you, with RT3 levels above range.  Consequently my Free T3 : RT3 ratio is super low.  As you touched upon, the medical community disagrees about the role RT3 plays in our bodies and many doctors don't think that high levels indicate a problem.  That said, the fact that supplemental T3 helps you suggests otherwise.  I wish more POISers had their RT3 levels tested, as it would be helpful to know whether high RT3 is a trend among us.  I'm not quite ready to try supplemental T3 as that seems like a big step to me, but maybe one day.

Daniel, let me emphasize that I'm now trying to use T3 via CT3M to recover proper adrenal function, but before doing so I've spent 1.5 years trying many different kinds of adrenal support (adaptogenics, licorice root, isocort, cortex glandulars, phosphatidilserine, DHEA, pregnenolone...). T3 has been the last resort as it looked like I was somewhat compensating for, but not recovering missing adrenal function. This is also a controversial field, some say that using isocort and glandulars finally leads to partial adrenal suppression, others that it temporarily help supporting adrenals to fully recover. Using T3 when adrenal function is at its peak seems stimulating adrenals to produce more hormones themselves. However it's a young method, and it's unclear what happens when T3 is finally weaned off, and for how long one is supposed to use it.
Underactive thyroid issues are said to often come from dysfunctional adrenals, and also untreated hypothyroidism is a cause of adrenal dysfunction in the long term, that's why there often considered together.
Even in case of pure hypothyroidism (hashimoto's, iodine deficiency,...) T3 is not the first choice treatment, it's logical that one starts with T4, better NDT, and eventually turns to T3 or a combination of the above for resistant cases. Dosing T3 is a lot of work and could be not well tolerated by some individuals, especially if they have cortisol, iron, B12, blood sugar issues... so it generally requires these underlying issues are addressed before, or at least in parallel.
As you say yes, it would be interesting to see how many in this community have some degree of adrenals/thryoid dysfunction; even though I feel there are more factors in play, they can certainly contribute to chronic fatigue related issues. All is very complex and interrelated and individual.
 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #17924 on: 16/03/2013 21:01:35 »

 

SMF 2.0.10 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
 
Login
Login with username, password and session length