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Author Topic: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)  (Read 6440359 times)

Offline reuniting

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1950 on: 12/11/2008 02:06:23 »
Martin88, just curious about your testosterone remarks. Last time we checked the research, the fluctuations in blood levels of testosterone after orgasm moved around, with a consistent brief spike at day seven, but over all there was no increase or decrease. Has something new come out?

What *may* account for the changes in libido/energy is the androgen receptor levels in key parts of the brain after orgasm. For example, male rats, after sexual satiety (sex to the point of disinterest), show decreased androgen receptors for sometime, and the changes correlate with their decreased libido.

Androgen receptors are the receptors on nerve cells that *respond* to testosterone. So if lots of them are missing for a while, no amount of testosterone will "register" as good feelings. This may be at work in humans, too. Another reason to think about learning to make love without orgasm.;-)
 

Offline reuniting

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1951 on: 12/11/2008 04:29:52 »
Limejuice [MessageID: 204675] Your post about fenugreek decreasing both the intensity of your orgasm and the POIS hangover was fascinating. My curious husband quickly found that fenugreek may increase prolactin (or act like prolactin). That is, it increases lactation...AND likely suppresses dopamine. (Prolactin is released after orgasm, and its function is to hold dopamine down for a while. It acts as a "sexual satiation" hormone.) Your results make perfect sense. The fenugreek would be suppressing dopamine from the start.

He said he would be concerned that depressing dopamine with an herb might be bad for someone with depression or social anxiety disorder (both tied to low dopamine).
 

Offline mellivora

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1952 on: 12/11/2008 05:16:11 »
Hi everyone,
Iím still catching up on past posts and still amazed by just how long it takes to read them all! Iím on page 67 or so but have just briefly skimmed through some of the later pages. Reading so many posts in so little time might be beneficial to help me link together the various info people have posted but I wish Iíd managed to stay more up to date. Countepoints I havenít forgotten about the questionnaire.

Girlwindís posts about thyroid function have jumped out at me and I would like to draw attention to my particular case as I first detailed on page one of this forum. My POIS symptoms only appeared after I was treated with radioactive iodine to kill off part of my overactive thyroid. As usually happens in cases of radio-iodine treatment, my thyroid then became underactive. It is since then that I have suffered POIS symptoms. Before that I didnít have what I would recognise as POIS symptoms. Orgasm for me gave no negative symptoms except after some years the following: Probably in my mid to late teens after masturbating particularly frequently (so I thought at the time) Ė once a day for a couple of weeks or so -  I noticed my semen was runnier than normal so I stopped. I canít remember how long I stopped for but later when I started masturbating again and sometimes when I just became stimulated (without a full ejaculation) I developed sharp stabbing pains in the abdominal area Ė but no POIS symptoms, zero brain fog etc.  It was only years later after radio-iodine treatment and the resulting underactive thyroid that I developed POIS symptoms (I only mentioned the stabbing pains in case it indicates some other prior weakening of my sex system. I don't have the stabbing pains now).

Since my post-radioiodine treated thyroid was diagnosed as underactive, I have taken levothyroxine daily. According to girlwindís research and as detailed in the article http://holtorfmed.reachlocal.net/article_info.php?articles_id=2 this is a T4 only supplement and may well be insufficient in making up for my lack of thyroid function. According to some of the articles girlwind has posted, a better treatment should be a combination of T4 and T3. Wow! My TSH has long been coming back as what doctors regard as Ďnormalí I think I have actually been tested for T3, T4 including (I think but am not sure)free T3 or T4 on occasion. I REALLY need to check my medical records and get the results of all my tests. I canít believe I havenít chased this up more! I guess in the periods between POIS that I am feeling well enough I have a tendency just to get on with and enjoy life when I get the chance. Anyway, Iím left wondering if there are some organs that are not getting the T3 they need and perhaps this is contributing to POIS. Iím out my home country until the end of the year so canít look into this yet, although thinking about it perhaps Iíll be able to email my doctor and at least get the results of my last few tests and see if they tested free T3 and T4. I definitely want to look into a combined T4/T3 supplement instead of T4 only and will keep you posted. I will say that I donít put on weight easily and there are other classic underactive thyroid symptoms I donít have  but Iíve always been someone among my peers that doesnít put on weight Ė maybe other factors are in play). As Girlwind has highlighted, it is possible to have low free T3 and still not be diagnosed as having an underactive thyroid. It doesn't sound from other posts like all people on the forum can be underactive but the fact that I only got POIS after my thyroid treatment seems important. It's possible the radioiodine somehow damaged parts of other organs too?

Some thoughts on garlic. As I mentioned, Iím abroad at the moment and the garlic variety I have tried here is different to the one back home, though I have today bought a variety that seems more similar to what Iím used to. Somehow the first garlic just wasnít as strong (not as strong tasting and doesnít burn as much when chewed). Also I see according to at least one article
http://postharvest.ucdavis.edu/datastorefiles/234-199.pdf


 "Intact garlic bulbs lost about 25-
40% of their pungency after 4 months storage at 0-
1įC (32-33įF) in air"

The content of alliin in garlic can vary
considerably due to garlic variety but also
production practices. Among about 30 garlic varieties we studied, there
was a >2 fold variation in alliin concentration"

I donít know whether variation in the quantities of active ingredients between varieties or age of stored garlic cloves could be a contributing factor in the hiccup John21 suffered in his otherwise promising garlic treatment? What do you think John? I guess maybe its unlikely if you've been regularly consuming it and therefore always have a regular, fresh supply? As I mentioned, garlic treatment hasnít done it for me other than some slight improvement in early testing. In my lastest POIS event it has not been effective but Iíve realised Iíve been using old cloves of this suspected less potent variety. Iíve just bought a newer variety which as I said seems more similar to what Iím used to. Its probably important to remember that if we're consuming raw plants, some natural variation in the levels of chemicals that different plants contain is inevitable

There are loads of garlic articles on the web. I have only had chance to skim a handful. These are:
 

 
http://postharvest.ucdavis.edu/datastorefiles/234-199.pdf

http://www.allicinfacts.com/allicin05a.htm

http://www.kyolic.com/html/kinfo/vol1_3.htm

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/garlic/NS_patient-garlic

As has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum, garlic cloves should apparently be sliced/crushed and consumed immediately to maximise consumption of the active ingredient though there are variations of opinion on the exact best method and just how much of it is taken up usefully by the body.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 05:24:14 by mellivora »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1953 on: 12/11/2008 07:28:16 »
...He [my husband] said he would be concerned that depressing dopamine with an herb [such as fenugreek] might be bad for someone with depression or social anxiety disorder (both tied to low dopamine).

Reuniting, thanks for the caveat. I have been suggesting caution here many times, so I appreciate the reinforcement. Relora, in particular, concerns me, because as a plant the interaction effects with other Rx meds and/or OTC drugs are unknown. But so far, it's exciting to see some positive results!
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 08:00:40 by demografx »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1954 on: 12/11/2008 07:45:37 »
...think about learning to make love without orgasm.;-)

Reuniting, great idea. I've tried for years and I conclude that it requires a minimum of sainthood plus postgraduate work ;D

After more futile years, I also succeeded with Mantak Chia's formula of "orgasm without release" (Girlwind did, too, [and not with me!] ) but no POIS relief! Sorry for the late night humor...

30+ years of POIS agony that has ruined a good chunk of my life and now Levitra works for me 50% to 75%. We also have one other positive Levitra report from another forum member. But Cialis didn't work at all (for me)! Viagra is an unknown and after my Cialis disaster I'm not interested in trying it.

I'm really hoping (for me, and others here who are looking for the same thing after years of trying everything under the sun) that some "chemical cocktail" will eventually do the trick.

I mention the 30+ years of POIS because my patience is frankly thin at this stage.

But I welcome any approach that can work. We're all different.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 07:58:07 by demografx »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1955 on: 12/11/2008 08:03:45 »
mellivora, thanks for the rapid catch up and posting!
 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1956 on: 12/11/2008 16:36:10 »
Girlwindís posts about thyroid function have jumped out at me and I would like to draw attention to my particular case as I first detailed on page one of this forum. My POIS symptoms only appeared after I was treated with radioactive iodine to kill off part of my overactive thyroid. As usually happens in cases of radio-iodine treatment, my thyroid then became underactive. It is since then that I have suffered POIS symptoms.

According to some of the articles girlwind has posted, a better treatment should be a combination of T4 and T3. Wow! My TSH has long been coming back as what doctors regard as Ďnormalí I think I have actually been tested for T3, T4 including (I think but am not sure)free T3 or T4 on occasion. I REALLY need to check my medical records and get the results of all my tests. I canít believe I havenít chased this up more! I guess in the periods between POIS that I am feeling well enough I have a tendency just to get on with and enjoy life when I get the chance. Anyway, Iím left wondering if there are some organs that are not getting the T3 they need and perhaps this is contributing to POIS. Iím out my home country until the end of the year so canít look into this yet, although thinking about it perhaps Iíll be able to email my doctor and at least get the results of my last few tests and see if they tested free T3 and T4. I definitely want to look into a combined T4/T3 supplement instead of T4 only and will keep you posted.

As Girlwind has highlighted, it is possible to have low free T3 and still not be diagnosed as having an underactive thyroid. It doesn't sound from other posts like all people on the forum can be underactive but the fact that I only got POIS after my thyroid treatment seems important. It's possible the radioiodine somehow damaged parts of other organs too?

Mellivora--Thank you for your input about your thyroid issue. As you know I've just recently discovered that I
have lived with un-diagnosed hypothyroidism for probably 30 years. Considering that I have a 30 year history of CFS,
and that according to some doctors 90% of CFS patients have hypothyroid, I was really quite pissed off to realize how
pathetically inept all the doctors I have seen (over so many years) have been in addressing my thyroid problem. It is
truly shameful  that no doctor I saw (over this 30 year period) ever bothered to look into this, to order a round of the
CORRECT THYROID TESTS (Free T3, Free 4, TSH, TPO, and Reverse T3) and to make an effort to assist me out of
the hellish exhaustion that I had to suffer through so needlessly for so long.

I have definitely seen results with both CFS and POIS since I began to address my thyroid problem. But because I
have so many health issues going on, it's hard to chart an exact level of improvement with  one particular problem. Also,
because I am not a classic hypothyroid case (my thyroxine level (T4) is actually okay, it's my T3 that is too low, which
means I have a T4 to T3 conversion problem), I am not in a hurry to take thyroid hormone. Instead I have chosen to treat
myself with natural remedies, particularly iodine rich foods (like seaweed & sea salt) and an adaptogenic Indian herb that
is traditionally used for assisting both adrenals and thyroid--Ashwaghanda. After just 2 months I can see improvement
in several of my symptoms, most noticeably I no longer have this uncomfortable squeezy feeling in my throat. It is
completely gone!

In addition to the articles I've read and posted on this site, there is an excellent book on thyroid by Mary Shomon, called
Living Well With Hypothyroidism. I HIGHLY recommend it. It covers every aspect of the issue from accurately assessing
risk factors, to conventional and alternative treatments, to the MANY controversies around thyroid diagnosis and treatment,
to the ever changing "normal range" for TSH, to the benefits of Armour Thyroid (the natural hormone used for 100 years
before the synthetic thyroid pharmaceuticals strategically pushed it to the fringes of the market place) and all the REALLY
UGLY politics of the Synthroid manufacturer's attempts to squelch thyroid research, in order to protect their profit margins
with their best selling levothyroxine drug.

I definitely can concur that there is a connection in my case between both my adrenals and my thyroid and POIS. And
I encourage anyone who might suspect that they have a throid problem to spare themselves of any further exhaustion
by getting it checked out and treated.

"a study published earlier this year concluded that 13 million Americans have undiagnosed  thyroid disease."
Source: Mercola
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 16:41:18 by girlwind »
 

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1957 on: 12/11/2008 16:49:25 »
Martin88, just curious about your testosterone remarks. Last time we checked the research, the fluctuations in blood levels of testosterone after orgasm moved around, with a consistent brief spike at day seven, but over all there was no increase or decrease. Has something new come out?

What *may* account for the changes in libido/energy is the androgen receptor levels in key parts of the brain after orgasm. For example, male rats, after sexual satiety (sex to the point of disinterest), show decreased androgen receptors for sometime, and the changes correlate with their decreased libido.

Androgen receptors are the receptors on nerve cells that *respond* to testosterone. So if lots of them are missing for a while, no amount of testosterone will "register" as good feelings. This may be at work in humans, too. Another reason to think about learning to make love without orgasm.;-)
Here are the posts and article I was talking about :
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg185405#msg185405

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg179880#msg179880

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/0222_060222_sex.html

Yes I have read this about androgen receptors on your web site. Very interesting. Maybe pois is a slight form of androgen insensivity. Dopamine and testosterone are closely linked.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 18:06:27 by martin88 »
 

Offline Limejuice

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1958 on: 12/11/2008 17:59:26 »
Limejuice,
Your experience complements mine: after consuming fenugreek I had a "small" NE. Perhaps your theory on orgasm intensity is correct, when I was young I had such an addiction as well, perhaps we somehow taught our bodies to go big. I tried another pill yesterday morning just to try it's effect on me again, and even one produced a small antidepressant-like effect, noticeable within a day of taking it. It messed up my fragile sleeping again so I will discontinue it for now.

Do you experience any side effects with fenugreek?

Like you, I sleep extremely light where any noise or light can break my sleep.  As you know, bad sleep only magnifies POIS symptoms.

Fenugreek side effects...I feel slight anti-depressant effects as well but their low impact and don't effect my life or mood.  In contrast, Relora's side effects were intolerable and Relora wasn't as effective as fenugreek.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 18:03:08 by Limejuice »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1959 on: 13/11/2008 01:21:03 »
Girlwind, have you noticed anything that helps your POIS but not CFS?
 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1960 on: 13/11/2008 02:06:30 »
Girlwind, have you noticed anything that helps your POIS but not CFS?

No, if something helps my POIS, it helps my CFS. And for now that something is adrenal and thyroid
boosting supplements and foods. As well as a high protein low carb diet.

My level of energy and stamina always determines how well I respond to exertion and stress. (And I
definitely consider orgasm exertion and expenditure of a LOT of energy.) Whatever maintains or builds my
overall energy, and alleviates the fatigue, the chronic infections, and the hormonal imbalances seems to
help both CFS and POIS.
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1961 on: 13/11/2008 03:05:43 »
I agree with B_Jim that if cortisol is a factor for some of us, we are probably experiencing significant cortisol fluctuations, rather than chronically high levels.  If we had chronically high cortisol, I think many of us would have developed signs of Cushing's syndrome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cushing%27s_syndrome
« Last Edit: 13/11/2008 03:10:12 by Counterpoints »
 

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1962 on: 13/11/2008 03:09:48 »
Thanks to everyone who has filled out the form at http://pois.olympe-network.com.  We are now developing quite a large database of information that will be easily accessible to researchers!
 

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1963 on: 13/11/2008 03:12:02 »
tarkington, thanks for your responses. If you could remember to comment on your progress in a couple of months from now, that would be really helpful. :)
 

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1964 on: 13/11/2008 03:30:53 »
Thanks to everyone who has filled out the form at http://pois.olympe-network.com.  We are now developing quite a large database of information that will be easily accessible to researchers!

I saw the importance of the database today when I spoke with a major local university endocrinology research group. It's not easy to get our case taken on as a clinical trial, but the database helps.
 

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1965 on: 13/11/2008 13:10:22 »
The database is too small for now and is growing too slowly. To all readers: Please fill the form!
« Last Edit: 13/11/2008 13:19:47 by martin88 »
 

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1966 on: 13/11/2008 13:19:06 »
I saw the importance of the database today when I spoke with a major local university endocrinology research group. It's not easy to get our case taken on as a clinical trial, but the database helps.
Thanks Demografx for your determination. What was their answer ?
 

Offline CertainlyPOIS

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1967 on: 13/11/2008 16:22:07 »
http://www.lactationconsultant.info/jaundice.html
http://www.ehealthmd.com/library/hypothyroidismchildren/HYC_symptoms.html
http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_symptoms_of_hypothyroidism_000038_3.htm

I was browsing on hypothyroidism since it has symptoms similar to pois and girlwind is showing evidence that is one the things adding to her cfs.   While i was browsing i saw that a symptom for babies with hypothroidism is Jaundice and I had jaundice when i was baby, am just wondering who here had jaundice.
 

Offline Limejuice

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1968 on: 13/11/2008 17:44:13 »
No jaundice here.  Also, no hypothyroidism.
 

Offline Limejuice

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1969 on: 13/11/2008 17:49:47 »
Reuniting - interesting thought.  The fenugreek is still working wonders.  However, I appear to be developing a dependancy for it.  Fenugreek allowed me to relax and sleep easy at night.  I stopped taking the herb two days ago and have slept horrible since. 

I want to learn more about prolactin.

EDIT* - who wrote this article.... http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v14/n2/full/3900823a.html

Hi Demografx - what are these endocrine specialists saying?

Limejuice [MessageID: 204675] Your post about fenugreek decreasing both the intensity of your orgasm and the POIS hangover was fascinating. My curious husband quickly found that fenugreek may increase prolactin (or act like prolactin). That is, it increases lactation...AND likely suppresses dopamine. (Prolactin is released after orgasm, and its function is to hold dopamine down for a while. It acts as a "sexual satiation" hormone.) Your results make perfect sense. The fenugreek would be suppressing dopamine from the start.

He said he would be concerned that depressing dopamine with an herb might be bad for someone with depression or social anxiety disorder (both tied to low dopamine).
« Last Edit: 13/11/2008 17:54:45 by Limejuice »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1970 on: 13/11/2008 17:59:58 »
Thanks Demografx for your determination. What was their [university endocrine specialists] answer ?

Hi Demografx - what are these endocrine specialists saying?

Martin, Limejuice, it's like coming in through the back door. Normally they get a grant from Govt. or a pharmaceutical or a large donor to study something, e.g., brain cancer. Then they look for volunteers. I said "we're doing it backwards", i.e., we have the volunteers and the malady - and even some remedies to test - that WE want studied. So it's a bit awkward. They suggested to see if we could hop on to an existing clinical trial, perhaps to become a subgroup. So I searched their database for "orgasm" and "postorgasmic". Nothing came up.

I also searched the database my HIV-biophysicist friend suggested for rare disease at National Institute of Health. Nothing came up.

Maybe we should look for different keywords?

I tried to contact a major benefactor at the University whom I knew years back, no reply yet. And I will keep trying different ideas. I contacted Dr. Waldinger to see what he thinks of relora and cortisol, haven't heard back yet.

Sorry I don't have any astonishing news to share yet. But what this forum seems to be doing on its own steam is indeed astonishing. Thanks everyone!
« Last Edit: 13/11/2008 18:14:44 by demografx »
 

Offline Limejuice

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1971 on: 13/11/2008 18:09:23 »
Reuniting is on to something with prolactin.  Prolactin is released after orgasm and begins a recovery period for the body.  Well...I never need a recover period, (this gets personal) I never get limp after orgasm, I can keep it up for hours and hours.  So it would appear I have low prolactin or my doesn't recover very fast.

Wikipedia prolactin

Guys - personal question, does your body behave the same?  Do POIS suffers ever get a recovery period with prolactin?
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1972 on: 13/11/2008 18:18:39 »
PROLACTIN

POIS Forum messages which contain prolactin:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=prolactin+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenakedscientists.com&aq=f&oq=

NOTE: The POIS Forum Message # ("MessageID") appears with the url in the search result.
« Last Edit: 14/11/2008 15:47:51 by demografx »
 

Offline John21

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1973 on: 13/11/2008 23:14:02 »
Limejuice, that is quite amazing and very unusual I'm sure, I certainly isn't my condition, my body has the typical refractory period.
 

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1974 on: 14/11/2008 03:25:00 »
« Last Edit: 14/11/2008 03:31:49 by martin88 »
 

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #1974 on: 14/11/2008 03:25:00 »

 

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