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Author Topic: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)  (Read 6429899 times)

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3325 on: 05/02/2009 13:25:18 »
Hi to the newcomers! Rob I did the same thing before posting anything, but it was less to read. I'm sometimes wondering if those who don't read really have pois, probably not like me!


Deloun, I believe in this theory about noradrenaline (or norepinephrine). I thought exactly the same thing and wanted to post about this, but the fact that some people tried SNRI without success made me think that perhaps it's not true.


Martin, maybe your theory is still possibly correct. Effexor (SNRI) didn't work for me but maybe SNRI's just aren't powerful enough for norepinephrine balancing?
This is a possibility, specially if you're already taking something else which is already increasing norepinephrine. I didn't know that ADHD medications are increasing norepinephrine.

Deloun's theory/links are very interesting. I think Levitra is a PDE4 inhibitor(to be verified), not only PDE5.
Testosterone is closely linked with dopamine. (If testosterone decrease prolactin, dopamine should be increased).

Demo, you said that after a very long abstinence pois is worse. True for me too (pois after 6 weeks abst will be worse than after 2 weeks). Maybe it's because of increased prolactin (?), because it wasn't released for a long time. Should we say that if someone have daily sex the amount of prolactin is reduced but still too much if we count the total amount of prolactin over weeks. (If I have daily sex it's devastating because I never recover)
 

Offline underwater

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3326 on: 05/02/2009 15:01:32 »
To Goingcrazy and any other young persons new to this forum:
It is great to have your perspectives and ideas. There is a fresh and spontaneous point of view that I don't have. I racked my brains last night trying to return to the time frame that probably started all of this. I'm still trying to dredge up  memories and clues.

I personally want to thank everyone for even the slightest clue. This is a jigsaw puzzle. And you all know how that works. Once you get enough pieces in place your mind goes ah ha! Then you can match the remaining pieces in their correct places more quickly. It's just a matter attaining critical mass. Then---Symphonic Epiphany!!!!!!!
Granted our puzzles may be quite individual, but the multiple synergies will overcome all that.------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3327 on: 05/02/2009 16:35:13 »
rob58, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!

Here are some POIS forum resources which may be helpful:

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Forum Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video: A first!

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here. This will also enable us to work more easily with outside researchers by having more organized data available about us:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

POIS Research Study

We have a copy of the first and only study on POIS by Dr. Marcel Waldinger,MD and Dr. David Schweitzer, MD.

If you want a copy (PDF), send "Pyropeach" a Private Message with your regular email address and he'll send you back the PDF.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around the recipient's name, e.g., "pyropeach".

New York Times article,

January 20, 2009
Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse

 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3328 on: 05/02/2009 17:13:45 »

I believe that we recover because our body filters out toxins on a daily basis... another possibility is our body stops attacking itself (auto-immune) because it god rid of what it needs to get rid of... other than that I have no other thoughts.


A while after I posted about being stumped as to Underwater's "why do we recover?", I realized that it's just another way the body drives to heal itself after trauma, e.g., a slightly cut finger will eventually heal.

And we probably all have "scars" from POIS to boot!
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3329 on: 05/02/2009 17:30:35 »

Welcome Rob58. At the beginning we had only 2000 views during first months and now 220,000 :) Web is a fantastic tool to regroup us considering the low prevalence of this syndrome.
 

B_Jim, I think that you (as the 2nd POIS listmember to post at this forum, on June 6, 2007) and others following you and John21 (our very first forum poster) who have stayed to contribute for a long time are one of the main reasons for the 220,000 views-success of this forum thread!

Thank you, B_Jim.
« Last Edit: 06/02/2009 01:58:46 by demografx »
 

Offline deloun

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3330 on: 05/02/2009 18:40:23 »
The theory that I have about POIS, is that the symptoms may be caused by a deficiency of one or more of the catecholamines of which noradrenaline may be the most relevant.

Deloun, I believe in this theory about noradrenaline (or norepinephrine). I thought exactly the same thing and wanted to post about this, but the fact that some people tried SNRI without success made me think that perhaps it's not true.

I have slightly this symptom you mention about genitals when in pois. Running, working, taking chocolate or coffee help (before the side effects for these foods). The symptom is mentionned in this page for the first remedy : http://www.hpathy.com/diseases/spermatorrhoea-symptoms-treatment-cure.asp

Also I know that coffee is increasing noradrenaline, so maybe before taking it NA is continuously low and after we take coffee the complete depletion occurs because we can't produce enough NA.

In a book I have it's written that sympathetic nerves exhaustion is causing pois, and I think these nerves are releasing noradrenaline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_nervous_system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noradrenaline


My MD also thinks I have a problem with noradrenaline because he wants me to take clomipramine or an equivalent.

Noradrenaline is highly involved in motivation and concentration.

I think the herb rhodiola is supposed to increase noradrenaline but for me it causes a complete insomnia, perhaps a sign that something is depleted.

Interesting, that you notice that same symptom, cold water can also help.
About that rhodiola, it seems at least it had some effect on you, maybe you had to get used to it? Did you notice any other effects?
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3331 on: 05/02/2009 18:59:40 »

A lot of people with depression might actually have pois...


This was true for me at times.
 

Offline deloun

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3332 on: 05/02/2009 19:05:26 »
Also, I have been noticing something weird lately. I sometimes go into the water fatigued and after a few laps feel just depleted. I fight not to get out. Then, after 15 minutes, I get some kind of rush, and I'm energetic.

I have also noticed that heavy physical exercise can make me feel a bit better when having POIS symptoms. Scientific research shows that heavy physical exercise can cause an increase of catecholamines, so that may explain why. I was already thinking about adding this point to the POIS noradrenaline theory list. Are there any others that notice a bit of improvement after heavy physical exercise?
 

Offline deloun

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3333 on: 05/02/2009 19:17:05 »
What I'm thinking is.  A lot of people with depression might actually have pois, you know?  I thought I had depression for about 2 years until I found out it was from the sex.  I was even prescribed lexapro, an antidepressant

And it's interesting I have an uncle who is depressed... maybe we have identical genes and he just hasn't figured out it is from sex

I dunno guys, it is ok to feel like crap once and a while, but everyday if you have sex... that''s just impossible to deal with... people around me think I'm a different person [:-'(]

I've also been thinking that there might be even a lot more people that experience very negative symptoms after sex that are physically related and a lot of them might not even be fully aware or not aware at all. For me, and I believe many others here, it also took a while before I was fully aware of the link between sex and symptoms.
 

Offline deloun

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3334 on: 05/02/2009 19:43:26 »

- Sceletium Tortuosum helps reducing POIS symptoms. It's a herb of which the main active alkaloid is mesembrine, which is a PDE4 inhibitor with a mechanism in a way similar to rolipram (11) that raises levels of noradrenaline.


Deloun, do you know if there's a relationship between your noradrenaline theory and PDE-5 inhibitors like Levitra? And with testosterone?

Demografx, I had already searched for a possible link with Levitra but couldn't find much at the moment. I did find however that Levitra also inhibits other PDE's, including PDE4, but very weak in comparison to PDE5, so it's not clear to me if the inhibition of Levitra on PDE4 is strong enough to have a significant effect. (1)

I had also searched for testosterone and believe it can have an effect on catecholamines, but couldn't find much concrete information in scientific research at the moment. I did find scientific research that noticed an increase of noradrenaline in a part of the brain of rats, though. (2)

(1) The inhibitory selectivity of vardenafil on bovine and human recombinant phosphodiesterase isoenzymes
(2) Effects of testosterone and ethinyloestradiol on the synthesis and uptake of noradrenaline and 5-hydroxytryptamine in rat hindbrain: evidence for a presynaptic regulation of monoamine monoamine synthesis?
« Last Edit: 05/02/2009 19:46:53 by deloun »
 

Offline deloun

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3335 on: 05/02/2009 19:49:59 »
Demografx, how are you doing on the testosterone at the moment, by the way?
 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3336 on: 05/02/2009 20:47:28 »
Until this forum, I have not focused on the adrenal glands. Girlwind seems to have influenced me in focusing on adrenal rehabilitation. That type of nutritional therapy involves considering adrenal fatigue. I might have made the mistake of always thinking I constantly had too much norepinephrine and epinephrine. Instead, the last few hours it dawned on me that I may be deficient in norepinephrine. Also, I have been noticing something weird lately. I sometimes go into the water fatigued and after a few laps feel just depleted. I fight not to get out. Then, after 15 minutes, I get some kind of rush, and I'm energetic. Could my enhanced metabolism be working with my new supplements to make some more norepinephrine/epinephrine? Could my frequent insomnia and lousy sleep be due to slow metabolism and reduced production of norepinephrine etc.? Could there be general metabolic shutdown in some of us after orgasm, thus causing failure of adrenals to produce what they're supposed to produce? What is metabolic shutdown? I don't know. I just coined this in my flow of consciousness post. However, could it be that the caloric expenditure is so overwhelming that the body refuses to reup for a few days. It's not going to "burn", it's going to not even rest. It's just quitting for a while.

MY ADRENAL REPORT (by Girlwind)

Today is my 5th day of baby doses of hydrocortisone. I want to report an interesting phenomenon. After taking my morning dose
of 2.5 mg, I feel kinda sorta slowed down, though not exactly "tired." At first I thought this was a "BAD" thing. I'm supposed to get
MORE ENERGY from this treatment, not less. (And yes, I still need to multiply my dose by about 10 times more over time, before I
can gauge the REAL effect.) But then, I realized that I am so USED TO feeling this wired tired buzz that being S-L-O-W-E-D down
to more normal functioning feels WRONG.  Notable is the fact that as soon as my morning dose wears off, in about 4 hours time,
then I begin to get back the wired-tired (which is my "normal").  After I take my 2nd dose at noonish, I go through the same cycle.

My thought is that when we acclimate over time to what we're USED TO as being normal, any changes to our system might initially
feel NOT normal, even if they are only a part of the overall hormonal adjustment process. My worn out adrenals seem to create an
artificial FAKE energy, that causes me to be sleepless and anxious at times, and just plain restless. But there is NO ENERGY under-
neath that. Now, after taking the hydrocortisone, I feel energized enough to feel slower and more relaxed. How weird is that!

I want to remember this for future reference and remind anyone else who is doing the hormonal therapy approach.
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3337 on: 05/02/2009 20:56:08 »
Hi Guys,

I have been reading the postings for about a month now and finally caught up. Found you at the top of the list after googling "orgasm" and "fatigue".  Ironically my major symptoms are a bit better described by "brain fog" than by fatigue but I was sure that using brain fog as a term would not give me any results..

I have known that my POIS symptoms were linked to orgasm since I was 15 but have probably had POIS ever since I first had an orgasm.  I am now 50 years old and have suffered from the same symptoms with about the same intensity throughout.

My next post I intend to bore you with my symptoms and theories.  Thanks for being here.

Rob, thanks very much for posting.  I'd really like to know how things have gone for you, and how you've coped over the years.  I'm only in my twenties,
but I've had to deal with this for 10 years so far, and I'm really worried about deterioration. 

I'm symptomatic about 80% of the time, these days.  When I am symptomatic (at all), I feel like I'm not "half the man I used to be".  And that I never will be again.  But now and then, there is the rare time that the symptoms completely go away, and I feel as sharp as I once did.  It's nice to know that you haven't really "declined" (beyond normal age related decline) -- at least it seems like this is what you're saying.

I definitely encourage you to fill out http://pois.olympe-network.com

Best wishes.
 

Offline underwater

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3338 on: 05/02/2009 22:37:36 »
Girlwind--
I've noticed the same "adjustment isssues" you talk about. I've had some of my best days lately, but often times shortly after taking a modest adrenal support supplement I feel a bit "down". But I graph my moods everyday, and there is improvement. Remember your patience and perseverence admonition? The perseverence part is the hardest, because if I'm progressing with just vitamins and minerals (and I am!), my conservative side says,"Why risk playing around with plant extracts & amino acids"?
This reticence is due to GAD,and the tendency not to tinker with ANYTHING even if minor improvement is being made. But to vanquish GAD and to take that momentum toward the resolution of POIS requires some risk taking. I guess we have to be prepared to take two steps forward and one back every once in a while.
 

Offline CertainlyPOIS

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3339 on: 05/02/2009 22:42:12 »
Also, I have been noticing something weird lately. I sometimes go into the water fatigued and after a few laps feel just depleted. I fight not to get out. Then, after 15 minutes, I get some kind of rush, and I'm energetic.

Yes that happens to me all the time after exercising i get energetic but pois still exist.
I think it is because of endorphinns

I have also noticed that heavy physical exercise can make me feel a bit better when having POIS symptoms. Scientific research shows that heavy physical exercise can cause an increase of catecholamines, so that may explain why. I was already thinking about adding this point to the POIS noradrenaline theory list. Are there any others that notice a bit of improvement after heavy physical exercise?
 

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3340 on: 06/02/2009 00:20:50 »
About that rhodiola, it seems at least it had some effect on you, maybe you had to get used to it? Did you notice any other effects?
Unfortunately I couldn't notice any positive effect because I took it for a very short time. I'm not able to get used to it. The insomnia was really strong and unbearable. It's like it's the day during the night (for a lot of days after I took the pills).
 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3341 on: 06/02/2009 00:59:34 »
Girlwind--
I've noticed the same "adjustment isssues" you talk about. I've had some of my best days lately, but often times shortly after taking a
modest adrenal support supplement I feel a bit "down". But I graph my moods everyday, and there is improvement. Remember your
patience and perseverence admonition? The perseverence part is the hardest...

Thanks for reminding me about that patience and perseverance thing. I get so excited when I do something new, I
begin to think it will be an instant cure TODAY! Actually, right now would be good! So yes, progress not perfection,
I will have to chant it over and over in my head, while I meditate on my adrenals.   [8D] [8D] [8D]
 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3342 on: 06/02/2009 01:02:03 »
About that rhodiola, it seems at least it had some effect on you, maybe you had to get used to it? Did you notice any other effects?
Unfortunately I couldn't notice any positive effect because I took it for a very short time. I'm not able to get used to it. The insomnia was
really strong and unbearable. It's like it's the day during the night (for a lot of days after I took the pills).

Martin--

I know rhodiola is supposed to be adaptogenic and relaxing, but I have noticed that when I took it, it also made
me a little bit mentally hyper. It never worked as well as schizandra or ashwaghanda. Have you tried either of those?
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3343 on: 06/02/2009 03:02:07 »

If testosterone decreases prolactin, dopamine should be increased.


Martin, that's encouraging news for me. Thanks.


If I have daily sex it's devastating because I never recover.


Horrifically and horrendously true for me, even if it's only once a week.
« Last Edit: 06/02/2009 03:25:51 by demografx »
 

Offline CertainlyPOIS

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3344 on: 06/02/2009 03:48:50 »

If testosterone decreases prolactin, dopamine should be increased.


Martin, that's encouraging news for me. Thanks.


If I have daily sex it's devastating because I never recover.


Horrifically and horrendously true for me, even if it's only once a week.



Don you think if you sex everyday and dont give body chance to recover, the excess chemicals causing problem will keep compounding and just keep adding to the pain.
 

Offline CertainlyPOIS

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3345 on: 06/02/2009 03:49:28 »
On sleeping sideways, i will suggest sleeping on couch is a little easier to sleep sideways on a couch.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3346 on: 06/02/2009 05:44:18 »

Demografx, how are you doing on the testosterone at the moment, by the way?


Thanks for asking, Deloun. I think my body has adjusted somewhat to the testosterone patches, yet I think my overall mood has improved. I'm concerned now about my body shutting down it's natural ability to produce T and/or re-start production. When I asked the endo about that, he said that my body wasn't producing enough T, and that we'll discuss that in our next visit. Fair enough, I'm certainly not ready to rip out the patches at this point.

March 3, I will re-test blood for testosterone, prolactin, DHEA-S, and AM cortisol. On March 10, the endo and I will review the re-tests and decide the next step. We will also discuss things that others have brought up (thank you everyone) at this forum.

I'm starting to think more and more that my higher success last year (75%+ POIS cure!) was due to the combination of depotestosterone (injection) and Levitra. When I dropped the T last year, the POIS cure dropped to 50% and lower. I'm in no rush to re-validate but hopeful that it can even be better this year because of the smoother T-delivery of the patches vs. the injectables. We'll see.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3347 on: 06/02/2009 05:46:47 »

On sleeping sideways, i will suggest sleeping on couch is a little easier to sleep sideways on a couch.


What if we roll over, falling off the couch and break...oh nevermind... :)
 

Offline deloun

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3348 on: 06/02/2009 12:22:43 »
Also, I have been noticing something weird lately. I sometimes go into the water fatigued and after a few laps feel just depleted. I fight not to get out. Then, after 15 minutes, I get some kind of rush, and I'm energetic.

I have also noticed that heavy physical exercise can make me feel a bit better when having POIS symptoms. Scientific research shows that heavy physical exercise can cause an increase of catecholamines, so that may explain why. I was already thinking about adding this point to the POIS noradrenaline theory list. Are there any others that notice a bit of improvement after heavy physical exercise?

Yes that happens to me all the time after exercising i get energetic but pois still exist.
I think it is because of endorphinns

In my own experience I don't experience it like after physical exercise that the POIS symptoms are just as severe and besides that feeling a bit better in a different way, but the reason that I feel a bit better after physical exercise is because the POIS symptoms itself are a bit reduced and I believe that can be because physical exercise increases noradrenaline and adrenaline.
I believe I've read it before here on the forum that others have experienced it too in this way.
Here's the scientific research I found that shows the increase of noradrenaline and adrenaline after physical exercise:
FREE AND CONJUGATED CATECHOLAMINES IN HUMAN PLASMA DURING PHYSICAL EXERCISE
 

Offline deloun

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3349 on: 06/02/2009 12:27:44 »

Demografx, how are you doing on the testosterone at the moment, by the way?


Thanks for asking, Deloun. I think my body has adjusted somewhat to the testosterone patches, yet I think my overall mood has improved. I'm concerned now about my body shutting down it's natural ability to produce T and/or re-start production. When I asked the endo about that, he said that my body wasn't producing enough T, and that we'll discuss that in our next visit. Fair enough, I'm certainly not ready to rip out the patches at this point.

March 3, I will re-test blood for testosterone, prolactin, DHEA-S, and AM cortisol. On March 10, the endo and I will review the re-tests and decide the next step. We will also discuss things that others have brought up (thank you everyone) at this forum.

I'm starting to think more and more that my higher success last year (75%+ POIS cure!) was due to the combination of depotestosterone (injection) and Levitra. When I dropped the T last year, the POIS cure dropped to 50% and lower. I'm in no rush to re-validate but hopeful that it can even be better this year because of the smoother T-delivery of the patches vs. the injectables. We'll see.

Good that you keep a close eye on things. Good luck with it.
 

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3349 on: 06/02/2009 12:27:44 »

 

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