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Author Topic: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)  (Read 6431190 times)

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3350 on: 06/02/2009 13:35:05 »
About that rhodiola, it seems at least it had some effect on you, maybe you had to get used to it? Did you notice any other effects?
Unfortunately I couldn't notice any positive effect because I took it for a very short time. I'm not able to get used to it. The insomnia was
really strong and unbearable. It's like it's the day during the night (for a lot of days after I took the pills).
Martin--
I know rhodiola is supposed to be adaptogenic and relaxing, but I have noticed that when I took it, it also made
me a little bit mentally hyper. It never worked as well as schizandra or ashwaghanda. Have you tried either of those?
I don't remember if I was mentally hyper. I think I just couldn't relax for the whole night to be able to sleep. After a while I started to feel a bit scared to stay like that forever. I tried ashwagandha and I think my pois was aggravated because of increased sexual frequency, however this wasn't a clear(immediate)effect. Schizandra I didn't try but it's on my list, it's interesting on paper!
« Last Edit: 06/02/2009 13:41:20 by martin88 »
 

Offline CertainlyPOIS

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3351 on: 06/02/2009 17:56:38 »

On sleeping sideways, i will suggest sleeping on couch is a little easier to sleep sideways on a couch.


What if we roll over, falling off the couch and break...oh nevermind... :)

I wish i can sleep that  good all the time
 

Offline underwater

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3352 on: 06/02/2009 18:11:27 »
Also, I have been noticing something weird lately. I sometimes go into the water fatigued and after a few laps feel just depleted. I fight not to get out. Then, after 15 minutes, I get some kind of rush, and I'm energetic.

Yes that happens to me all the time after exercising i get energetic but pois still exist.
I think it is because of endorphinns

I have also noticed that heavy physical exercise can make me feel a bit better when having POIS symptoms. Scientific research shows that heavy physical exercise can cause an increase of catecholamines, so that may explain why. I was already thinking about adding this point to the POIS noradrenaline theory list. Are there any others that notice a bit of improvement after heavy physical exercise?

It's more than just "physical exercise" that has an impact on POIS. Sure, you can get an increase in adrenaline and noradrenaline. But the muscles and their fatigue cause the increases. What else may happen: glycogen deficits, amino acid imbalances, neuroendocrine imbalances, lactic acid increases or decreases etc. There is a connection between muscle metabolism and neurotransmitter metabolism. I speculate that for some of us that the inhibitory catecholamines are reuptaken and nor/epinephrine are not. For those that are on the "brain fog side of POIS", maybe
there is another route; Perhaps as I theorized in another post there is an inhibition in the transmission of stress signals from brain to adrenals? For me, on the amped up, electric/depressive side of POIS, it's becoming more and more convincing that I need to free up phenylalanine, tyrosine and tryptophan or I'll always be at the mercy of epinephrine (& nor also), and especially their nasty nocturnal visits. Also, for those thinking about exercising, BE CAREFUL. It could backlash and make things a lot worse. Without question, part of my onset of fullblown POIS was due to over exercise.
This resulted in catecholamine imbalances. I also think on the "brain fog side" that if stress signals are inhibited from reaching adrenals, cortisol will be very low.
I'm obviously not a biochemist or anything close, but I will try to make my ideas clearer in the future. I guess the only thing going for me is my sensitivity to my own physiology and how I can affect it. This is the result of 35,000 miles of running,
1,000 miles of swimming and an obsessive monitoring of my anxiety etc. For me orgasm just triggers a confusion of catecholamines and totally mimics a panic attack. My body thinks its working out when its not, or it makes too big a deal about it. I guess this is another long rant-------------------------------------
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3353 on: 06/02/2009 19:06:49 »
Also, with exercise, insulin can better remove sugar from the bloodstream.  Since some POIS symptoms are hyperglycemia like, this might be relevant.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3354 on: 06/02/2009 19:25:22 »

I guess this is another long rant-------------------------------------


Not to me.
 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3355 on: 06/02/2009 19:57:34 »
Just in case anyone is interested, I am posting some info on healing the adrenals with low dose hydrocortisone.
I read a really good book several years ago by William Jefferies called The Safe Uses of Cortisol. Now that I'm
actually doing a treatment with it, I'm re-reading it. Jefferies was an endocrinologist (Clinical Professor of Internal
Medicine at the University of Virginia School of Medicine), who treated many patients with various medical disorders
that ranged from allergies, low blood pressure, gonadal dysfunction and infertility issues, to those who had been
adrenalectomized  for Cushing's syndrome, quite successfully, over many years, with low doses (what he terms "phy-
siologic doses") of cortisol. The essentials of his treatment protocol were 1) LOW DOSES--totaling 20 mg/day that
were 2) divided in 4 parts of 5 mg., taken before each meal. Boosting the energy of the adrenals with these low doses
improved both the energy level and immune functioning of patients with various disorders. The book basically con-
firms the info I got from Michael, as well as from my doctor. Now I am in the process of finding out for myself.

http://www.conscioushealing.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=72&Itemid=57
 

Offline underwater

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3356 on: 06/02/2009 21:02:24 »
Also, with exercise, insulin can better remove sugar from the bloodstream.  Since some POIS symptoms are hyperglycemia like, this might be relevant.

Excellent observation Counterpoints:
One of the reasons I started exercising diligently around age 26 was to try and control my blood sugar. There was diabetes in everyone on my father's side. As far as sugar and POIS is concerned, this is a real puzzle for me. At the M.D. my sugar is always fine, but that is basically irrelevant. I can tell that my blood sugar fluctuates, and I can tell that it affects POIS and GAD. Usually after dinner (not lunch or breakfast) my symptoms of POIS/GAD will improve. I assume it's blood sugar,
but lately (after my dull brain has been stimulated by this forum) I'm not so sure.
I know one thing for sure; too much sugar=insomnia,severe ringing in ears,sore throat, stuffed nose etc. Another thing that I now believe is that there appears to be a dominant POIS; essentially characterized by "brain fog". My POIS is different, but the time frame is the same, although I think many with "brain fog" share some of my symptoms e.g. anxiety, insomnia etc. With reference to sugar again, sometimes I get a type of diabetic rebound hypoglycemia if I have too much sugar. Weird!
When I was POIS and GAD free from 29-40 years of age, my exercise was high, stress controlled, sugar burned up completley, endorphins way up, sleep good etc. I lost control of my stress around 1990 as it got the better of me, and my panic/anxiety returned (like 1976) followed quickly by POIS. I feel that POIS was nearly undetectable in the early years, but as I reflect, I felt kind of "poor" many times.
 

Offline rob58

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3357 on: 07/02/2009 01:07:30 »
As promised here is a list of the POIS symptoms that I have had now, unabated, for 35+ years.

Given a nightly orgasm, the subsequent morning is the start of day 1.  Day 2 is the worst. If I give that a score of 10, the dynamic pattern of my symptoms is: 
day 1: 8, day 2: 10, day 3: 6, day 4: 2.

My symptoms in order of severity:
  (1) spacy (disorganized, disoriented, forgetful, cannot retrieve words or other information as well, unfocused, slow-witted, difficulty changing course or initiating anything, poor at thinking through complex issues)
  (2) lack of energy (tired, sleepy, depressed)
  (3) physical distress (back ache, creaky joints, reduced stamina, difficulty focusing my eyes, reduced coordination and body control, field of vision seems affected -- I frequently bump my head)
  (4) dry (thirsty, dry mouth, hands feel dried out)
  (5) itchy scalp and increased hairloss
  (6) reduced resistance (become sick more easily)
  (7) panic attacks (claustro phobia increases)

Now for something completely different.  I do experience some positive benefits from POIS as well!
 (a) skin tone (esp. on day 1 I just look better to myself)
 (b) creativity (by being less focused I am more likely to come up with creative solutions to research problems etc.)
 (c) ability to deal with boredom (can tune out and vegetate more easily)
 (d) music appreciation (increased enjoyment from listening to music)
 (e) ability to catch (odd but true, I am like a magnet during POIS, have perfect timing and catch anything thrown to me at whatever speed ???).

These symptoms and their severity have hardly changed during my life time. 
Will throw some pet theories at you in my next posting.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3358 on: 07/02/2009 01:47:44 »
FIRST TRIAL LEVITRA AND TESTOSTERONE PATCH COMBO

Since several hours ago......very few POIS symptoms! First time with the patches. I'm cautiously optimistic and on guard for the placebo effect.

As scientific research demands, I'm keeping my toes and fingers crossed! :)
« Last Edit: 07/02/2009 01:52:02 by demografx »
 

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3359 on: 07/02/2009 05:02:39 »
FIRST TRIAL LEVITRA AND TESTOSTERONE PATCH COMBO

Since several hours ago......very few POIS symptoms! First time with the patches. I'm cautiously optimistic and on guard for the placebo effect.

As scientific research demands, I'm keeping my toes and fingers crossed! :)
That's the post I was waiting for. So it's working! Hope too it's not a placebo.

Thanks a lot Demo and I don't know who else who wrote these forum guidelines (which are more rules I see!). I was not expecting to see this. I hope it will help to reduce further public exclusions (involuntarily or not). Also I think we may have lose some important information/help from the "annoying posters", but of course we'll nevertheless find the solution!  
« Last Edit: 07/02/2009 05:05:55 by martin88 »
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3360 on: 07/02/2009 07:16:27 »
FIRST TRIAL LEVITRA AND TESTOSTERONE PATCH COMBO

Since several hours ago......very few POIS symptoms! First time with the patches. I'm cautiously optimistic and on guard for the placebo effect.

As scientific research demands, I'm keeping my toes and fingers crossed! :)
That's the post I was waiting for. So it's working! Hope too it's not a placebo.

Thanks a lot Demo and I don't know who else who wrote these forum guidelines (which are more rules I see!). I was not expecting to see this. I hope it will help to reduce further public exclusions (involuntarily or not). Also I think we may have lose some important information/help from the "annoying posters", but of course we'll nevertheless find the solution!  

I'm not saying anyone here is an "annoying" poster, or anything.  But keep in mind that a disruptive poster, even if he may have some useful information, is likely to
1) change the direction of productive discussions
2) prevent others from coming forward with helpful posts.

This has a net negative effect.  This is why moderation, and sometimes public warnings, are necessary.

But I understand what you're saying Martin. :)
« Last Edit: 07/02/2009 07:17:59 by Counterpoints »
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3361 on: 07/02/2009 07:19:47 »
These symptoms and their severity have hardly changed during my life time. 
Will throw some pet theories at you in my next posting.

Look forward to hearing more.  It's very interesting that so many people have independently voiced the "word finding difficulty" symptom.
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3362 on: 07/02/2009 07:27:37 »
When I was POIS and GAD free from 29-40 years of age, my exercise was high, stress controlled, sugar burned up completley, endorphins way up, sleep good etc. I lost control of my stress around 1990 as it got the better of me, and my panic/anxiety returned (like 1976) followed quickly by POIS. I feel that POIS was nearly undetectable in the early years, but as I reflect, I felt kind of "poor" many times.

So did you stop exercising around the time you first noticed POIS?
 

Offline rob58

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3363 on: 07/02/2009 10:55:17 »
Theory

Given my lifetime experience with POIS I expected to be able to contribute some possible theories to this forum.  But in reading through all postings, each theory I have thought of has been mentioned at least once.  So all I can contribute is provide my own perspective to the theories that were brought up before.

I have a PhD in (mathematical) statistics so know a bit about science but have little knowledge about medicine or biology. So keep in mind where I am coming from.

Theory: Depletion and replacement problems.  Several have mentioned this on this forum and to me this seems the most likely candidate. From an evolutionary perspective it is important for men to replace sperm relatively quickly once it is lost. Most can do so but this requires the endocrine system to work hard and take "resources" away from other activities (like brain function and physical fitness). POIS sufferers may have more problems than others because their body is not as efficient in replacing sperm.  One example may be those with low testosterone production or tolerance.

My question to the forum is:  how would you rate your own "masculinity"?  I rate myself as normal but pretty low on that spectrum (low shoulder width to hips ratio; somewhat immature looking; low testosterone measurement; slight case of gynecomastia since youth).  My sperm count is normal and I have kids but the volume of semen per ejaculation is about 4 times average. (another factor making replacement more costly).

If we could meet in person as forum members we might notice some things that we have in common.  Obviously that is difficult so one thing we may try to do here is try to figure out what physical characteristics we may have in common.

Clearly this theory does not explain Girlwind's or other women's cases. By the way, I am convinced that a former girlfriend of mine has/had POIS.  When I pointed this out to her she denied it, though.

Rob.
 

Offline rob58

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3364 on: 07/02/2009 11:45:10 »
Just filled out Counterpoints's survey.  Very good survey instrument in my opinion and I hope it will help some medical folks do a pilot study.

In doing the survey I noticed I haven't been complete in posting my symptoms.  Should have added: irritability, craving of sweets, and bad breath.  Also, given my reduced mental alertness, I do poorly in social situations during POIS, and, already not being naturally talkative, become even less talkative.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3365 on: 07/02/2009 16:55:18 »
Last word on "forum decorum"

I just want everyone to know where I stand. I am thrilled with the wonderful dialogue from everyone here!

I am proud and astonished to see the phenomenal progress in the 2 years since I, John21, B_Jim and others started our lonely chats here about POIS back in 2007!

The "forum decorum" is a standard post which you may have noticed upon registering here. And since Martin88 and others have requested this, I thought it would be a good idea to reprint it periodically at our POIS thread.

Best wishes to everyone for a POIS-free life!

Now let's all keep posting those great experiences, theories, improvements, and cures! (yes, even garlic! ;D)
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3366 on: 07/02/2009 17:01:31 »
Just filled out Counterpoints's survey.  Very good survey instrument in my opinion and I hope it will help some medical folks do a pilot study.

In doing the survey I noticed I haven't been complete in posting my symptoms.  Should have added: irritability, craving of sweets, and bad breath.  Also, given my reduced mental alertness, I do poorly in social situations during POIS, and, already not being naturally talkative, become even less talkative.

Rob, this is great, thank you! It helps me, too, and I'm sure others, to crystallize some symptoms that we have not been able to articulate clearly - even to ourselves. In my case, it has helped sharpen my understanding of my own cognitive problems during POIS.
« Last Edit: 07/02/2009 18:58:04 by demografx »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3367 on: 07/02/2009 17:04:13 »

It's very interesting that so many people have independently voiced the "word finding difficulty" symptom.


Counterpoints: I problem no word have all at difficulty!
« Last Edit: 07/02/2009 18:35:14 by demografx »
 

Offline underwater

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3368 on: 07/02/2009 17:17:40 »
When I was POIS and GAD free from 29-40 years of age, my exercise was high, stress controlled, sugar burned up completley, endorphins way up, sleep good etc. I lost control of my stress around 1990 as it got the better of me, and my panic/anxiety returned (like 1976) followed quickly by POIS. I feel that POIS was nearly undetectable in the early years, but as I reflect, I felt kind of "poor" many times.

So did you stop exercising around the time you first noticed POIS?

When POIS was "fully noticed" and the connections to "O" were clear (about 89'/90'), I continued exercising. My stress was "sky high", and even if I wanted to stop exercising, I couldn't. I probably should have balanced exercise and rest more. I am trying now to balance them better. It's like a drug for me. Most of the research I have read indicates that for people with my issues (obviously neurochemical), I should have moderate exercise.
It's just like drugs and supplements; balance, dosage and time of day are critical. I can say this with near certainty for me, that the tipping point came when I lost the ability to control my emotional stress; just too many chemical stressors. I remember saying to myself, "take it easy" these post "O" symptoms are getting a little scary". Had I controlled my "behaviour/stress/responses" I would not now have POIS. It tipped my GAD flare ups into POIS. I remember it and I know it. I will not elaborate or describe. But my POIS is different than most here. It is anxiety driven!!!! I will significanly diminish it when I learn to control my mind better and understand the proper relationships between exercise and nutrition; nutrition used here as a general term since I am obvioulsy experimenting all the time with various combination of things.   
 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3369 on: 07/02/2009 17:22:33 »
Clearly this theory does not explain Girlwind's or other women's cases. By the way, I am convinced that a former girlfriend of mine has/had POIS.  When I pointed
this out to her she denied it, though.

I know two other women who have admitted having some milder version of POIS symptoms. They suspected it was  
due to hormonal changes from peri-menopause. I imagine there has to be more women with this issue, so why are
they not showing up on the forum? The few who have didn't stick around longer than a couple postings. I wonder
if denial of POIS in women is as common as faking orgasm...?  which is VERY common. Or is it somehow related to
the fact that a high percentage of women are non-orgasmic (somewhere between 30-50%)?  Whatever the case, I
would really like to hear from more women about their POIS experiences. I hope that more come forward.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3370 on: 07/02/2009 17:37:56 »

I'm not saying anyone here is an "annoying" poster, or anything.  But keep in mind that a disruptive poster, even if he may have some useful information, is likely to

1) change the direction of productive discussions

2) prevent others from coming forward with helpful posts.

This has a net negative effect.  This is why moderation, and sometimes public warnings, are necessary.


Thanks, Counterpoints, that was, I think, very important to point out.
 

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3371 on: 07/02/2009 21:14:58 »
I definitely agree with moderation. I just have difficulty with making it public because one can feel rejected by the whole group. Maybe there are exceptions where it should be done publicly, I don't know.

Clearly this theory does not explain Girlwind's or other women's cases. By the way, I am convinced that a former girlfriend of mine has/had POIS.  When I pointed
this out to her she denied it, though.
I know two other women who have admitted having some milder version of POIS symptoms.

I think women can lose fluids without being aware of it:
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Female_ejaculation_-_Research/id/5044128
Female ejaculation - Research
In 2002, Emmanuele Jannini of L'Aquila University in Italy showed one explanation for this phenomenon as well as for the frequent denials of its existence. Skene's gland openings are usually the size of pinholes, and vary in size from one woman to another, to the point where they appear to be missing entirely in some women. If Skene's glands are the cause of female ejaculation, this may explain the observed absence of this phenomenon in many women. Retrograde ejaculation, where the fluid travels up the urethra towards the bladder (observed in 75% of test subjects) could also account for the observed absence



Rob, thanks for your theory, It's hard to say if it's caused by fluid loss or orgasm itself.
Maybe the two are causing problems (?)
About higher volume of ejaculation It's a possibility for me too but I never tried to scientifically measure this. I tought it could be caused by sexual abstinence.
« Last Edit: 07/02/2009 21:18:21 by martin88 »
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3372 on: 07/02/2009 23:12:12 »
Does anyone here have a history of using cortisone creams? e.g. elocom, etc.  Anything with hydrocortisone in it?
Last week I did a 24 hr urine cortisol test, and the results were really alarming (high)... more than twice the upper reference.  I haven't used cortisone creams very much for a couple years now, but I used to use them regularly (daily)... before POIS started too.

Also, T3 measured high again (above upper reference).  Twice in a row now.  T4 and TSH both quite normal though.
 

Offline underwater

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3373 on: 08/02/2009 01:08:12 »
If Dr. Waldinger is correct, and there is a type of inflammatory response to orgasm, where along the neurochemical chain might the cause be found? Or might the cause be connected to our muscles or blood? There certainly is a common recovery time frame that seems to indicate that the "irritants" ultimately give way to our antibodies, or that the "irritants" are cleaned out. If there is an autoallergic syndrome, we know that it clears up in a few days. How do we stop the "thing" from happening in the first place? When I used to have allergies, nasal spray worked for a while. POIS is a lot more complicated. I had severe allergies for over 45 years, and they just vanished. [Believe it or not, they vanished as my POIS got worse in the mid 90's]. I'd trade POIS for allegies anytime. Anybody here with allergies, arthritis, gout, tendonitis etc? I will get a very bad reaction to sugar and alcohol, but near deadly if combined; very sick for a few days. Are there any neurotransmitters or hormones in our own bodies that could turn on us? If there are, let's find them, trick them and render them harmless. A couple times last year during  POIS (before I joined in here), electrical stimulation of my lower back helped (during chiropractic treatment). But it was probably only the endorphins? Or maybe I confused some signaling molecules?
Now that I think about it, I always get a mild stuffed nose during POIS. Could that be an allergic response?

 
 

Offline rob58

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3374 on: 08/02/2009 01:41:29 »
If Dr. Waldinger is correct, and there is a type of inflammatory response to orgasm

I always get a mild stuffed nose during POIS. Could that be an allergic response?

 

So many of the theories put forward seem plausible to me. I certainly have had serious allergy problems during my life.  To both indoor and outdoor allergents.  POIS makes me more susceptible.  I do get a stuffed nose, my asthma gets worse. Also my arthritis and tendonitis problems get worse.

Has anybody systematically taken their body temperature before and after orgasm?
 

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3374 on: 08/02/2009 01:41:29 »

 

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