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Author Topic: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)  (Read 6427952 times)

Offline deloun

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3400 on: 09/02/2009 13:24:26 »

I've added some things, added things are green:

POIS catecholamines theory


Deloun, fascinating compilation! And it explains/makes sense of my success with Levitra/testosterone/stimulants, so thank you.

You're very welcome. Very nice that the combination is working for you again!
 

Offline deloun

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3401 on: 09/02/2009 13:45:17 »
Deloun:

Intrigued by the connection between catecholamines and POIS that you present although I am not sure I understand the whole story. (Over)simplified view would probably be that catecholamines are lost with semen. Then body is short of dopamine and adrenaline.

What strikes a chord with me is that I do feel that I have a dopamine shortage during POIS.  Not much scientific backing for this except the book/movie "Awakenings".  Oliver Sachs there realizes that certain catatonic patients are dopamine deprived.  He theorizes they feel like they have no will from inside themselves even though they can react to outside stimuli.  For instance, the patients come alive (sort of) to catch a tennis ball thrown at them.  This is how I feel during POIS plus I become quite good at catching tennisballs, not kidding.

Well, I don't believe that only the loss of semen could cause a decrease of catecholamines. Sexual activity itself (before orgasm) also seems to trigger a process in the body which has an effect on noradrenaline, and after sexual activity, even when an orgasm hasn't been reached, the amount of noradrenaline decreases rapidly. In the scientific research that I've linked to in reference number one in the catecholamines theory post (in the full text in the PDF) this is shown.

Nice comparison you make with the movie. Nice movie too, by the way.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3402 on: 09/02/2009 14:08:51 »

Actually I'm feeling much better right now, since I began that cortisol treatment.


Nice to hear!
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3403 on: 09/02/2009 14:15:14 »

Has anybody tried 5 hour energy? I would say it releives a bit of the pois, i tried some yesterday, but only a couple sips not even half of the bottle.


It worked for me somewhat, but in addition to caffeine + prescribed stimulants/psychiatric meds, it was way too much (overstimulation) so I cut it out.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3404 on: 10/02/2009 00:11:12 »
MICHAEL8028: REPLY TO HIS POSTED POIS CURE FROM MY UNIVERSITY ENDOCRINOLOGIST.

"Most of the post is scientifically untenable. Saliva tests are very inaccurate. Unless I see real blood test results, done in a reputable lab, from this patient I'd ignore it. Sorry to be so dismissive but I've had experience with these false sirens before."
« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 00:20:31 by demografx »
 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3405 on: 10/02/2009 00:20:48 »
MICHAEL8028: REPLY TO HIS POSTED POIS CURE BY MY UNIVERSITY ENDOCRINOLOGIST.

"Most of the post is scientifically untenable. Saliva tests are very inaccurate. Unless I see real blood test results, done in a reputable lab, from this patient I'd ignore it. Sorry to be so dismissive but I've had experience with these false sirens before."

That's a very predictable opinion. Unfortunately you can't argue with RESULTS.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3406 on: 10/02/2009 00:22:11 »
MICHAEL8028: REPLY TO HIS POSTED POIS CURE BY MY UNIVERSITY ENDOCRINOLOGIST.

"Most of the post is scientifically untenable. Saliva tests are very inaccurate. Unless I see real blood test results, done in a reputable lab, from this patient I'd ignore it. Sorry to be so dismissive but I've had experience with these false sirens before."

That's a very predictable opinion. Unfortunately you can't argue with RESULTS.

To the extent that they're believable.
 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3407 on: 10/02/2009 00:39:17 »
MICHAEL8028: REPLY TO HIS POSTED POIS CURE BY MY UNIVERSITY ENDOCRINOLOGIST.

"Most of the post is scientifically untenable. Saliva tests are very inaccurate. Unless I see real blood test results, done in a reputable lab, from this patient I'd ignore it. Sorry to be so dismissive but I've had experience with these false sirens before."

That's a very predictable opinion. Unfortunately you can't argue with RESULTS.

To the extent that they're believable.

Why would Michael LIE and make up ALL that information. I think you are being very quick to dismiss and disregard
someone who made a BIG effort to get his health back, and who was willing to share a HUGE amount of very helpful
and useful information with everyone on this forum. I also think it's very UNSCIENTIFIC for any doctor to be so pre-
sumptuous about a patient that he hasn't EVEN SEEN.

So far, everything Michael has helped ME with in my own pursuit of health and healing from both POIS and CFS has
panned out to be right on the money. If I have to pick btwn Michael's PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of healing himself, and
your know-it-all endo doctor's knee jerk opinion, that's an easy choice for me.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3408 on: 10/02/2009 01:08:07 »

If I have to pick btwn Michael's PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of healing himself, and
your know-it-all endo doctor's knee jerk opinion, that's an easy choice for me.

And I will stick to my world-class University research professor/endocrinologist, with over 30 years experience who has seen many 20-something athletes.

This forum needs balance, truth and integrity. I'm just presenting the opposite side, and I happen to believe them.

You might be right! At this time, I'm following the same intuition that has served me successfully throughout my life. I could be wrong!

I, and many others, have been misled on the Internet quite often. But for your sake, I hope this is an exception.

I have other educated opinions from listmembers that also influence me, but I will not post them for now.

Enough said, let people here make up their minds. We have presented enough information for people to make a decision.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 01:24:57 by demografx »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3409 on: 10/02/2009 01:23:23 »

Why would Michael LIE and make up ALL that information.


Not a lie, but many people are very wary of statements made over the Internet, sight unseen. We don't know the exact meaning of a "cure", how long, will it replicate with anyone else?, how sustainable, how much of a risk all the intake is, who is willing to go to that strenuous a regimen, etc., and how medically sound this all is for someone who is NOT a 24-year old male athlete!

You are predisposed to this type of info, I am very skeptical. But I certainly appreciate it being laid out for others to consider.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 01:41:10 by demografx »
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3410 on: 10/02/2009 03:38:22 »
To all those considering cortisol tests...
I would highly recommmend getting a 24 hr urine cortisol test, in addition to an AM blood test.  I have taken several AM blood tests.. some have been high-normal, some have been above reference.  But the 24 hr urine test raised an obvious red flag, which my endocrinologist really paid attention to.  I have a feeling I may have been dismissed if it were not for the 24 hr urine test result (which another physician ordered).

Also, demografx, you might want to mention Cushings, adrenocortical carcinoma, and pheochromocytoma, to your endocrinologist.  These problems can (edit: RAISE) prolactin, and (edit: LOWER) testosterone.  And they are somewhat consistent with your history.
« Last Edit: 13/02/2009 00:02:48 by Counterpoints »
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3411 on: 10/02/2009 03:45:10 »
Important question:  Has anyone noticed weight gain? (especially in the stomach and face?).  Despite attempts to lose it?  Also, any rashes, or thinning skin, or acne? (especially in face area).  These symptoms can be caused by high cortisol.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3412 on: 10/02/2009 04:17:01 »

Also, demografx, you might want to mention Cushings, adrenocortical carcinoma, and pheochromocytoma, to your endocrinologist.  These problems can lower prolactin, and testosterone.  And they are somewhat consistent with your history.


My prolactin's very high, not low. But thanks for thinking of me.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 04:22:57 by demografx »
 

Offline underwater

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3413 on: 10/02/2009 04:39:55 »
Belief, Skepticism and Someplace in between:
I've noticed some interesting discussion about a Poster's (Michael's) purported cure of POIS. On one hand, I think it's quite natural for a reader to doubt any answer that is proffered as true. On the other hand, I think it's important for the reader to make the asumption that what a Poster reports is based upon his/her honest belief in the truthfulness of what he/she is stating. A constructive dialogue and/or further consideration may resolve uncertainties.

Personally, I have some doubts as to "how" this Poster came to achieve his cure. I believe, however, his POIS was cured. The medical explanations are quite convincing, and there is an enthusiastic, good faith voice in his presentation. Nevertheless, I think his cure was a combination of things that suggest a slightly different narrative than the one implied. This is my take: I believe that a cessation of physiologically harmful behaviour was as important a factor in his "recovery" as were his therapeutic decisions that were made along the way to a "cure". Recovery or a Cure? Or a combination of the two? Poster stated on page 137, "I burnt my adrenals out in my late teens by overtraining in boxing and mixing that with overdrinking spirits (straight bottles of vodka, brandy etc.)and taking too many stimulants and partying with very little sleep for a few years. I didn't notice the adrenal fatigue till around age 21..." I submit that most physicians would first look for a possible cause for a disease before assuming a natural biochemical imbalance. In this case, I think we have a clear (honestly stated) contributing cause, the cessation of which, along with the interventions described, BOTH may have played a part in the "recovery" or "cure", as one may be inclined to choose as the most appropriate description. My position is that it is Someplace in between.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3414 on: 10/02/2009 04:48:52 »
Underwater, that was very interesting. As you point out, it wasn't an intention to deceive.
 

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3415 on: 10/02/2009 05:13:50 »
MICHAEL8028: REPLY TO HIS POSTED POIS CURE FROM MY UNIVERSITY ENDOCRINOLOGIST.

"Most of the post is scientifically untenable. Saliva tests are very inaccurate. Unless I see real blood test results, done in a reputable lab, from this patient I'd ignore it. Sorry to be so dismissive but I've had experience with these false sirens before."

This is interesting and important. He says he has had experience with these false sirens before. I don't think he's lying too. However I'd like to know to which hormones he's referring. We found studies saying that saliva tests for cortisol were acurate, so maybe he's referring to saliva tests for testosterone or other hormones than cortisol ?
I was planning to do several tests from differents labs at the same time to compare results. 

« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 05:29:31 by martin88 »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3416 on: 10/02/2009 06:02:07 »
MICHAEL8028: REPLY TO HIS POSTED POIS CURE FROM MY UNIVERSITY ENDOCRINOLOGIST.

"Most of the post is scientifically untenable. Saliva tests are very inaccurate. Unless I see real blood test results, done in a reputable lab, from this patient I'd ignore it. Sorry to be so dismissive but I've had experience with these false sirens before."

This is interesting and important. He says he has had experience with these false sirens before. I don't think he's lying too. However I'd like to know to which hormones he's referring. We found studies saying that saliva tests for cortisol were acurate, so maybe he's referring to saliva tests for testosterone or other hormones than cortisol ?
I was planning to do several tests from differents labs at the same time to compare results. 


Martin, at first I thought testosterone and prolactin, the 2 critical hormones for me and Michael. But his post refers to "saliva and urine" tests on a variety of hormones as well, so it's hard to tell.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3417 on: 10/02/2009 06:30:24 »
POIS DIARY

I kept pinching myself (figuratively) today, hoping the dream wouldn't end: 90%+ POIS-free! Can it be as simple as testosterone patches and Levitra that reverse this dreadful nightmare of 30+ years? I wish every POIS sufferer a day like today for a lifetime!

Placebo effect seems less likely: I sustained this result for many months before, probably over a year. I just wasn't smart enough to see that it was the combination that worked, and that neither testosterone or Levitra worked alone to combat my POIS sufficiently.
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3418 on: 10/02/2009 06:36:00 »

Also, demografx, you might want to mention Cushings, adrenocortical carcinoma, and pheochromocytoma, to your endocrinologist.  These problems can lower prolactin, and testosterone.  And they are somewhat consistent with your history.


My prolactin's very high, not low. But thanks for thinking of me.

I meant raise prolactin, and lower testosterone.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3419 on: 10/02/2009 16:11:57 »

concencentration of hormones in saliva is very weak : that's why it can be inaccurate.


B_Jim, isn't this what my endo is saying? He never said "only blood tests are scientific". He just believes saliva is inaccurate.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 16:17:25 by demografx »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3420 on: 10/02/2009 16:14:26 »
PANTALOON: I ACCIDENTALLY DELETED YOUR BYLINE. HERE IS YOUR POST!

Hi All

Just a basic intro and a question:-

I was diagnosed with CFS ('mild' as I've managed to work full time). I've had the condition for around 16 years. I'd noticed that orgasm could significantly worsen my symptoms, but didn't see it as a primary cause until I started reading this site.

I decided to go non orgasmic for a while and to take Relora which seems to have a   very +ve effect on me and see what would happen. Been doing this now for about 3 months and it's been the most symptom free 3 months of my recent life.

So, just wanted to say thanks for the friendly advice and all.

Anyway onto the question:-
Do you guys get a lot of colds? I'm not talking about feeling flu-ey as a symptom of POIS, but good old fashioned colds?
Until I started on my regime, I almost never got them, maybe once every year or two and then they were very mild and very short in duration.
Now however, I'm on my second real stinker of a cold in less than two months.
Seems like my immune system has woken up and has gone for an early morning run.

Any thoughts on this?

Kind Regards to everyone.

Pantaloon
« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 16:21:10 by demografx »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3421 on: 10/02/2009 16:32:23 »
Pantaloon, welcome to the POIS thread of The Naked Science Forum!

Congratulations, Pantaloon, on your recent POIS-free experience, and thank you for reporting back to us about Relora!

I caught colds for years until I realized that I just need to "lay low" with the onset of POIS, i.e., keep the stress and physical exertion as low as possible. That did it for me, but with obvious consequences for my work and social life.

Here are some POIS forum resources which may be helpful:

Please see "B_Jim"'s POIS Forum Summary of All Cases, here as well as others on the Web:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg149009#msg149009

"Girlwind" has created an excellent POIS Video: A first!

And filling out the POIS survey created by "Counterpoints" will enable you to share POIS information and details with others here. This will also enable us to work more easily with outside researchers by having more organized data available about us:
http://pois.olympe-network.com/

POIS Research Study

We have a copy of the first and only study on POIS by Dr. Marcel Waldinger,MD and Dr. David Schweitzer, MD.

If you want a copy (PDF), send "Pyropeach" a Private Message with your regular email address and he'll send you back the PDF.

To send a Private Message, click on "Messages" at the top of this page. At the Messages page, click on "New Message". From that point on, it works just like posting a message here, except that it only goes to the person(s) you designate.

Remember to put a quote around the recipient's name, e.g., "pyropeach".

New York Times article,

January 20, 2009

Mind
Sex and Depression: In the Brain, if Not the Mind
By RICHARD A. FRIEDMAN, M.D.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/20/health/views/20mind.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=friedman%20sexual%20January%2020&st=cse
« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 16:38:55 by demografx »
 

Offline girlwind

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3422 on: 10/02/2009 16:38:21 »
MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH THE INFO I'VE RECEIVED FROM MICHAEL8028.

Over the past several months Michael has become a personal acquaintance of mine. He has provided me with the
biggest wealth of information that I have encountered on ANY internet forum which pertains to hormonal issues.
(I have been a member of three other endocrine related forums, and I have to say that NO ONE ANYWHERE,
including on this forum, has been as generous and helpful to me with information and support as Michael
has been). I have followed through with much of what I have learned from him, in regard to both diagnostic hor-
monal testing and treatment of various endocrine deficiencies. And so far, what I have learned from him has
panned out  to be RIGHT ON TARGET for me. This isn't  my opinion, but my personal REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE that
I am talking about.

In fact, it was Michael's recommended tests for thyroid that led me to discover that I had hypothyroidism,
which is something that 17 DIFFERENT MEDICAL DOCTORS over a period of 25 years managed to completely
miss
. Also the protocol that he suggested to me for hydrocortisone, (which he sent me a highly detailed and
referenced description of), has been working very effectively for me. I have been following through with the in-
cremental dosage increases over the past two weeks, am now up to 10 mg, and have not had ANY problems with
it. MY ENDOCRINOLOGIST AGREED that given my sensitivity to medications, Michael's suggested protocol was a
good way for me to go.

Also: My endocrinologist's office has done extensive research on blood vs. saliva testing for hormones, and
it is THEIR EXPERIENCE that BOTH ARE EQUALLY ACCURATE
. In one of Michael's past postings, he recommen-
ded BOTH ZRT and QUEST labs. (The first is known for their saliva panels, the second for blood. His main point
was the importance of GETTING TESTED, so as to KNOW CONCRETELY which hormones are not at optimal levels.)

And yes OPTIMAL HORMONE LEVELS vs. NORMAL HORMONE LEVELS is another issue that Michael brought to my
attention, which MY ENDOCRINOLOGIST has also concurred with Michael on. Some of those alleged "NORMAL"
ranges are highly questionable and constantly debated by the so called experts, which has led many people with
endocrine disorder to be left undiagnosed and untreated for years if not decades. Most of us on this forum are
living proof of THAT!   http://holtorfmed.reachlocal.net/article_info.php?articles_id=7

In addition to my endocrinologist's vote of confidence regarding much of Michael's information for me, my
acupuncturist has also noticed some significant changes in both my "kidney yang and kidney yin pulses"--just
in the last 10 days since I began the HC protocol. This is very good news for me, as I have been her client since
1987, and have heard all too many times how "deficient" my kidney pulses can be.

What's more I had my first deliberate conscious orgasm two days ago and had zero POIS symptoms. I
went for a 3 mile walk afterwards, slept very well that night, and woke up rested the following day. I think the
HC regimen has proven to be a very good thing indeed! That is, of course, in addition to ALL the many other
supplements and dietary changes I have added over the past several months--for both thyroid and adrenal
support. Some of those changes were for the thyroid issue that I wouldn't haven't known about had it not
been for... you guessed it... Michael!

CONCLUSION: My BIG THANKS go out to Michael for giving the info I needed to uncover problems that had
been left undiagnosed (by medical doctors) for several decades, and to get me on the RIGHT TRACK for healing
them. Sometimes the help you need most comes from the LEAST expected place. Who would have thunk it that I
would be getting the best medical advice I've ever received from a body builder in Scotland! 


« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 18:25:59 by girlwind »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3423 on: 10/02/2009 17:39:29 »
RE: MICHAEL

I've been accused privately of attacking Michael. This is not my desire. I simply want the forum to have balance, fairness, truth, and objectivity. Which means good and bad. I am sorry if anyone is deeply offended by this type of moderation!

This all started because I wanted my endocrinologist to incorporate some of Michael's findings into my treatment!

« Last Edit: 10/02/2009 18:12:57 by demografx »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3424 on: 10/02/2009 17:58:30 »
Quote
B_Jim, isn't this what my endo is saying? He never said "only blood tests are scientific". He just believes saliva is inaccurate.
Yes, that's true sorry. I feel a general reluctance about saliva test, not especially you endo. I will make both. Saliva test probably will be better next years.
I have to say another Pois case (non-flulike) confirmed to me his bloodtests show a clear cortisol deficiency and  his endocrino will give him hydrocortisone soon. He will keep me informed about the effect of hydrocortisone on his Pois symptoms. I have no doubt he will have a good improvement like Girlwind and Michael.
Welcome Pantaloon. How your Cfs has been diagnotised ?


Thanks, B_Jim. And because of this forum, I convinced my endo to test my cortisol March 3!
 

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3424 on: 10/02/2009 17:58:30 »

 

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