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Author Topic: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)  (Read 6449760 times)

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3800 on: 10/03/2009 02:37:34 »

B_Jim, Counterpoints, Girlwind...everyone, I know I repeat this, but aren't exhaustion and fatigue predominant in defining POIS, not "also rans"?

I thought cognitive symptoms were secondary.


No, exhaustion should not be used to define POIS.  I think we should be general... POIS is characterized by severe symptoms following orgasm.

Also, cognitive symptoms are not secondary.  We see some cognitive symptoms reported in almost every case.  Cognitive symptoms may be secondary to your specific case, though.  (Is that so?).

And exhaustion could be considered a cognitive symptom.

(What do you mean by "also rans"?).


I've been here from the beginning (2 years) and I have seen fatigue as a prime complaint. But I won't post at wiki until we have some more concrete data.

B_Jim hopefully can help us resolve this from the 200 cases he's looked at.

Yes, you are primarily cognitive, and I am more on the energy-drain side of the coin. But I do have (have had?) solid cognitive problems.

"Also rans" is a popular term that originally comes from horse racing, alluding to the 2nd, 3rd, 4th place vs. winners.
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3801 on: 10/03/2009 02:45:09 »
Mental and physical exhaustion is already listed on the wiki article as a primary symptom, with a note that some people with the general cognitive symptom cluster (brain fog, etc.) do not experience this specific symptom. (This was recently revised.  Before the note said some people experienced the opposite effect, but I think the present explanation is more clear).  It's (and it was) in italics; there is even special emphasis on this point.

Also, as I've noted, 'exhaustion' can be considered a cognitive symptom. 

And I have read most of the cases here.  I came at p. 27 of 164, and when I arrived, I read through the first 27 pages.  I've also studied the survey responses.  I don't remember everything I've read -- maybe someone else remembers better than me -- and I'm sure I've missed things, but I am relatively 'aware' of what has been reported. And based on what I remember, I am not in disagreement.  What is the apparent disagreement?
« Last Edit: 10/03/2009 03:36:35 by Counterpoints »
 

Offline Finally

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3802 on: 10/03/2009 03:53:45 »
W
Mental and physical exhaustion is already listed on the wiki article as a primary symptom, with a note that some people with the general cognitive symptom cluster (brain fog, etc.) do not experience this specific symptom. (This was recently revised.  Before the note said some people experienced the opposite effect, but I think the present explanation is more clear).  It's (and it was) in italics; there is even special emphasis on this point.

Also, as I've noted, 'exhaustion' can be considered a cognitive symptom. 

And I have read most of the cases here.  I came at p. 27 of 164, and when I arrived, I read through the first 27 pages.  I've also studied the survey responses.  I don't remember everything I've read -- maybe someone else remembers better than me -- and I'm sure I've missed things, but I am relatively 'aware' of what has been reported. And based on what I remember, I am not in disagreement.  What is the apparent disagreement?


Wouldn't "mental and/or Physical" be a more comprehensive way of saying it?
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3803 on: 10/03/2009 03:56:38 »
Counterpoints, I think people would look at your list, below, as being in descending order of importance. That's the way most people read lists.

Exhaustion, below, unfortunately looks like an afterthought, buried as it is in a followon paragraph. And then followed by the energetic exceptions!

I think Exhaustion belongs at the very top where difficulty communicating is placed.




Most commonly reported symptoms:

difficulty communicating (possibly a temporary aphasia)
word-finding difficulty
anxiety
irratibility
social phobia
inability to relax
short term memory problems
inability to focus (attention deficit)
lack of spontaneity or creativity
cravings for the relief that follows orgasm
slow to process information
overall cognitive impairment (brain fog)
Most POIS sufferers report the above symptoms, regardless of whether they have some of the additional symptoms listed below. Another frequently occuring symptom is exhaustion, either mental or physical. However, there are several cases of people with the above symptom cluster who do not feel exhaustion.



Thanks, Counterpoints, for listening (reading :))
« Last Edit: 10/03/2009 05:07:25 by demografx »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3804 on: 10/03/2009 04:24:21 »

TYROSINE EXPERIMENT

(P.S. Thank you all for your support and kind advice)  :)


And thank you for sharing your results!
 

Offline Finally

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3805 on: 10/03/2009 04:37:24 »
When I did a search for POIS.  I came up with such things as Hawaiian food and Post office insurance.   There was a list of acronyms but ours wasn't included.  I submitted it which is subject to editor approval( our site was listed)
Also there was a medical condition Pulmonary over- inflation  syndrome. 
Hopefully there won't be any confusion.
 
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3806 on: 10/03/2009 04:41:18 »

Glad to hear your treatment is still working Demo :)


Many thanks, Hurray. And I do have 6 more months successful experience from last year, now that I know what was working when it was! (Hope that makes sense)
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3807 on: 10/03/2009 04:50:22 »
DR. WALDINGER AND WIKI

Just to let you all know that I gave him the link to the article today, since his name is prominently mentioned as the "founder" of POIS.
 

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3808 on: 10/03/2009 05:08:56 »
Counterpoints for your form I'd prefer to keep it private like it is. Just my opinion you asked for.

I don't know a lot about Wiki so I'm apprehensive for now:

Is there a possibility that someone with a strong scientifical background come and write something bad like "most MD think it's psychological". Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the truth and to stay very neutral, it's not a promotional site. Actually it's true that most MD think it's psychological, so this can eventually appear in Wiki.
Now if a researcher read this and see it's psychological he will believe his colleagues and will go away.
So it would be important to clearly mention that pois still need a good medical investigation.
We could eventually be taken not for taoist/religious group but for psychiatric cases!

« Last Edit: 11/03/2009 03:35:17 by martin88 »
 

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3809 on: 10/03/2009 05:31:05 »
In fact a medical study has never been done to be able to say if it's psychological.
CP, nice that it's written "all pois cases are reporting the same symptoms". For me one of the most interesting is the peak on day 2.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3810 on: 10/03/2009 05:55:53 »
Martin, I don't think most MD's have been exposed to POIS, so the risk may be small to label us as psychological. Perhaps you are influenced by OUR experiences with MD's, but we are only a small fraction of the mainstream population.
 

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3811 on: 10/03/2009 13:50:03 »
Martin, I don't think most MD's have been exposed to POIS, so the risk may be small to label us as psychological. Perhaps you are influenced by OUR experiences with MD's, but we are only a small fraction of the mainstream population.
Could it be "most MD who have seen pois cases"?
If I remember well, there was also a MD from TNS who suggested to investigate with psychiatrists instead of endocrinologists.

Pois is only based on observations (empiricism), even by Dr Waldinger, and need a medical study to confirm that it's not psychological (what we almost all feel/know already).
« Last Edit: 10/03/2009 14:05:02 by martin88 »
 

Offline Ambient123

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3812 on: 10/03/2009 14:13:46 »
Tyrosine Experiment

DAY 2

UPDATE: This morning I continued my course of 1g of Tyrosine, and have waited for its effects to occur.

(As i mentioned before, Day 2 is usually when POIS symptoms reach their peak)

Now i can confirm: While not cured, i can definately feel an improvement in my POIS symptoms, which during Day 2 are and include: Depression, suicidal thoughts, Poor motivation, Quite strong fatigue, Social withdrawal, Poor concentration, terrible attention span and memory difficulties.

Today, however, having taken 1g of Tyrosine, i notice a definite and significant difference.

Symptoms which have improved are: No depression
                                  No negative/suicidal thoughts
                                  Concentration improved
                                  Attention span significantly increased
                                  More motivation
                                  Memory remains stable
                                  Very little irritability
                                 

The only symptoms remaining (which I must add are pleasantly slight) are: Light fatigue (definately an improvement)
                                                                          Brain feels somewhat hazy (though definately not brain fog)
                                                                          Slight hunger, somewhat like Hypoglycemia symptoms (Interested in this).
                                                                          Slight confusion

To summarise, i can definately feel an improvement with the Tyrosine supplementation.

This leads me to believe that my POIS symptoms stem from low Dopamine. If this is so, would i not benefit more from drugs called Dopamine agonists? Any thoughts?

I also feel that something else is necessary to eliminate the remainder of my symptoms. One thought i had was supplementing DHEA. Any thoughts?

Will keep you posted of any changes through the day.

Tomorrow i will continue my course of 1g of Tyrosine, and provide my Day 3 update.

Thanks

Ambient


                                                                         
                                                                           
« Last Edit: 10/03/2009 14:34:19 by Ambient123 »
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3813 on: 10/03/2009 17:17:43 »
Counterpoints, I think people would look at your list, below, as being in descending order of importance. That's the way most people read lists.

Exhaustion, below, unfortunately looks like an afterthought, buried as it is in a followon paragraph. And then followed by the energetic exceptions!

I think Exhaustion belongs at the very top where difficulty communicating is placed.




Most commonly reported symptoms:

difficulty communicating (possibly a temporary aphasia)
word-finding difficulty
anxiety
irratibility
social phobia
inability to relax
short term memory problems
inability to focus (attention deficit)
lack of spontaneity or creativity
cravings for the relief that follows orgasm
slow to process information
overall cognitive impairment (brain fog)
Most POIS sufferers report the above symptoms, regardless of whether they have some of the additional symptoms listed below. Another frequently occuring symptom is exhaustion, either mental or physical. However, there are several cases of people with the above symptom cluster who do not feel exhaustion.

Thanks, Counterpoints, for listening (reading :))

Hmmm... this isn't really what I had in mind (a list in terms of importance).  I don't read these types of lists in that way.  What if all symptoms had equal importance, for instance? You would still have to list them in some order.  I don't think we have enough data to do sub-rankings of symptoms (e.g. which are the most common of the most common symptoms).  It's way too specific.

We could put a note to this effect. ("These symptoms are not ranked in order of frequency").

When I made the list, I was trying to present it in such a way that would most help researchers.  We see different symptom clusters here, which suggests that POIS has multiple causes. There's basically the standard cognitive "cluster", which people have or don't have: e.g. they have all of the symptoms in that cluster, or none of them.  While exhaustion is a frequently occuring symptom -- probably just as frequent as any symptom in the 'standard cognitive cluster' -- it doesn't fit into the same pattern.  People with the standard cluster will either have exhaustion, or they won't (about 50% either way).

So in terms of trying to find a cause for different symptom clusters, I think it's critical to differentiate.  It's not a matter of diminishing or elevating the importance of any specific symptom. 

But we can try and make this more clear.  I imagine the article will take months to get to a standard where we are all happy about pretty much everything.  Right now, I don't think there's danger of anyone reading the article missing 'exhaustion', and that's what really matters, imo.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3814 on: 10/03/2009 17:25:19 »
B_Jim, that was very enlightening, thank you! So how can we make "tiredness" more predominant without losing wiki credibility???????? And do you agree that tiredness/exhaustion/fatigue is predominant across the 200 cases????
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3815 on: 10/03/2009 17:26:18 »
Martin, I don't think most MD's have been exposed to POIS, so the risk may be small to label us as psychological. Perhaps you are influenced by OUR experiences with MD's, but we are only a small fraction of the mainstream population.
Could it be "most MD who have seen pois cases"?
If I remember well, there was also a MD from TNS who suggested to investigate with psychiatrists instead of endocrinologists.

Pois is only based on observations (empiricism), even by Dr Waldinger, and need a medical study to confirm that it's not psychological (what we almost all feel/know already).

The best way, in my opinion, to get some medical studies, is to bring attention to the problem.  It's like asking a girl out.  If you ask, you may get rejected, and that will hurt.  But if you don't ask, you are guaranteed to be dateless.

That said, we do have to be careful about credibility.  I don't see a danger of losing credibility at present, though.  Just saying "this is what we have observed about POIS and here are some POIS related links" is not going to lower credibility.  It's something we'd have to tell anyone interested in learning more about POIS.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3816 on: 10/03/2009 17:27:10 »
COUNTERPOINTS, one way to combat this built-in bias of import/descent is alphabetical sequence!
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3817 on: 10/03/2009 17:31:21 »
COUNTERPOINTS, one way to combat this built-in bias of import/descent is alphabetical sequence!

Yes, I had thought about this.  Let's do it. :).

But we should still have some note about exhaustion not being part of the standard cognitive symptom cluster.  I don't dispute that it's a predominant symptom, so I don't know why we are continuing that part of the discussion.  Do you understand what I'm trying to do with these symptom 'clusters'?
 

Offline Defsync

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3818 on: 10/03/2009 18:58:00 »
B_Jim, that was very enlightening, thank you! So how can we make "tiredness" more predominant without losing wiki credibility???????? And do you agree that tiredness/exhaustion/fatigue is predominant across the 200 cases????

Just a note on this in regards to my symptoms. I've noticed I don't suffer from "fatigue" persay, more so an increased sensitivity to tiredness and exhaustion. For example if I go for a run after climax, whereas I could run a couple miles easy now I'm feeling more the tiredness in my muscles, in the first mile, as they become exhausted. I can still run my full set though. The reason I lean towards this in myself and not an actual increase in fatigue is I also become more sensitive to hot/cold (which sucks when you live somewhere that is 100 in the summer and -10 in the winter). Now is there necessarily a difference or would you consider that the same as "increased fatigue"? Without a doubt though for me the loss in mental capabilities (ie, what threatens my ability to do my job, interact with others) has the greatest impact on my life.

I wonder if a survey breakdown somewhere where we could easily see all the POIS sufferers (like in a concise spreadsheet format so you can see many people at the same time), listed by gender, age, and physical fitness levels, AS WELL AS any conditions (even if they seem unrelated) that exist in us  and our immediate family. For example, my grandfather died with stage 2 alzheimers, my mother, aunt, and uncle all suffered from depression (practically put my mother in a cage within her own home for most of her adult life). My mother also has Primary Biliary Cirrhosis (an auto-immune disease of the liver) and I have an auto-immune disease called lichen planus (my immune system attacks my own skin cells). Depression suggest hormonal imbalance and the auto-immune diseases makes me wonder about the possibility of an auto-immune response... heh.

Two things I've looked at that I don't THINK I've seen mentioned here are the acetylcholinerase inhibitors and opiod blockers. I've read that climax can reduce acetylcholine levels as well. So I wonder if an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor might help in some fashion (increases acetylcholine) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donepezil. I've also read that part of the chemical release during climax includes opiods, so I wonder if an opioid blocker would have any effect is a person was having a reaction to them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naltrexone Please note that MY own research thus far has been very unscientific and I tend to draw together distant theories just for the sake of gathering together any and all possibilities. Both of these drugs have serious side-effects and should not be taken without the close supervision of your physician.
« Last Edit: 10/03/2009 19:02:36 by Defsync »
 

Offline John21

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3819 on: 10/03/2009 21:25:33 »
Ambient123,
Quote
To summarise, i can definately feel an improvement with the Tyrosine supplementation.

This leads me to believe that my POIS symptoms stem from low Dopamine. If this is so, would i not benefit more from drugs called Dopamine agonists? Any thoughts?

You could try eating Fava. I eat the canned type sometimes and they are tasty but to potentially increase dopamine you have to eat the "green" type.
« Last Edit: 10/03/2009 21:28:03 by John21 »
 

Offline GoingCrazy

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3820 on: 10/03/2009 23:26:02 »

what else helps a lot for pois, anxiety and all these other conditions is  Rhodiola Rosea... Try It.


GC, tell us more about your experience with it.

If your like me and seem to get a rush of anxiety right after sex, try rhodiola rosea.  For me it makes me feel relaxed.  I'm also taking this now as a general supplement because for me if relieves brain fog, and I generally feel a lot smarter.  This can be because it balances certain chemicals in the brain.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/benefits-rhodiola-rosea.html
 

Offline underwater

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3821 on: 10/03/2009 23:57:04 »
Aaron
Regarding inflammatory response post orgasm:
I get lower back pain and an irritating, slight burning in groin. Mine comes on 6-8 hours post "O". It's the last symptom to leave. For me it probably involves re-injury to tiny muscles. Then there is probably an inflammatory response that extends to my back. After watching this for 20 years, the trigger doesn't seem neurochemical, but it certainly may be the catalyst for an inflammatory response throughout the body which then becomes a larger neurochemical/autoimmune issue. I appreciate all the discussion re: POIS definitions, but for some of us there may be a significant neuromuscular component that plays a part also. For my body type, very wirey, parts of my body are constantly becoming irritated with "overuse". I am doing some experiments in this area presently. The frustrating thing with this feeling of burning/irritation is that it can last much longer than the traditional POIS period.
I spent $5,000 last year working on this symptom only. Sometimes it just comes on with stress, But its orgin goes way way back to orgasm/ejaculation; in my case probably an injury to soft tissue.
 

Offline Counterpoints

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3822 on: 11/03/2009 00:02:33 »
A small adenoma was found on my pituitary.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3823 on: 11/03/2009 01:55:04 »

A small adenoma was found on my pituitary.



Counterpoints, I hope that's controllable! Best wishes, CP.
« Last Edit: 11/03/2009 03:33:04 by demografx »
 

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3824 on: 11/03/2009 03:23:09 »
Sorry to hear you have this Counterpoints, but at least you know it now. It seems your ACTH was high (normal high) for someone who has a high cortisol. Hope you'll update on what your doc is thinking.
 

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #3824 on: 11/03/2009 03:23:09 »

 

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