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Author Topic: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)  (Read 6426240 times)

Offline martin88

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6825 on: 23/02/2010 01:12:18 »
Martin88
I have been using phosphatidylserine and I also have to report disappointment..also just the slightest improvement. I was 50% strength. I had tried it back in the late 90s and noticed a cognitive boost with a different brand that I could get anymore.
Fenugreek I tried and was very impressed the first week but its effect faded after that. I have not tried it for quite a while. I would have loved to have gotten an appetite boost.

Good luck with your endo.
Thanks Acronym. I took the Solgar brand for fenugreek and it's effective. Maybe gentian is good for appetite, it's antidepressant also.

My free T was low normal too, but I think T would still be helpful for me.

About progesterone, Yukka was tested low but he doesn't say if it was normal:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg185405#msg185405

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/eleventh/profiles/s139nore.pdf
interesting document Demo.
 

Offline silverandcol

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6826 on: 23/02/2010 04:08:38 »
damn i just had an NE after weeks of celibacy ><.  i wonder if the pois effects would be less from a NE.  I never found out though because I always that I might as well masturbate, if I was going to get pois anyways.  Anyone experience less pois symptoms from NE?  and how do u guys stop it?  usually i drink some water before i sleep, but im sick this week and did not want to wake up in middle of night, needed full sleep to heal.  but i guess it backfired.
 

Offline demografx

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Offline mellivora

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6828 on: 23/02/2010 11:03:32 »
Quote
I'm not sure what this means as to the potential relationship between norethisterone and cancer(no human studies done), but I thought I would post this link to be on the safe side:
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/eleventh/profiles/s139nore.pdf

Thanks for reposting this link Demo. It's obviously a very important potential risk to be aware of. Dr Dexter reported in his paper that Merck, the manufacturers of the drug, confirmed there were no known harmful side effects of norethisterone in (human) males. In the light of the National Toxicology Program's conclusions that you linked to, one is left wondering about long-term usage and its important to be aware of both reports.

(It should also be said that lots and lots of substances have been found to have carcinogenic effects, including many substances found in everyday foodstuffs and even chlorine that is used to treat drinking water. The carcinogenic risk from such substances seems to depend a lot on the concentration of that substance in the body which can accumulate over time with long-term use/ingestion. I don't know how the carcinogenic risk of norethisterone would compare to say a substance found in shampoo or any of a host of other apparently carcinogenic substances we ingest everyday. Tea can have carcinogenic and anti-cancer properties! It's a minefield!

I guess it's up to the individual to assess what an acceptable level of risk is but the information available to make that decision seems to be difficult to interpret and sometimes conflicting).

Incidentally, if anyone wants an idea of the range of carcinogens we encounter everyday you can start with this google search:
http://www.google.com/search?q=carcinogen+everyday+food&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en

 
« Last Edit: 23/02/2010 12:29:30 by mellivora »
 

Offline mellivora

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6829 on: 23/02/2010 14:36:53 »
edit: also not sure how this affects progesterone

Further to my post above, if norethisterone is a synthetic version of progesterone and is carcinogenic, one might also expect naturally occuring progesterone to be carcinogenic and that does indeed seem to be the case!! (though not necessarily proven in humans)
http://www.google.com/search?q=progesterone+carcinogenic&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en

Progesterone also has anti-cancer properties!:
http://www.google.com/search?q=progesterone+inhibits+cancer&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en

Which just goes to show how careful you need to be when assessing risks of chemicals! This MAY mean that norethisterone is no more carcinogenic than the progesterone produced by a normal body and might even have anti-cancer properties too!
« Last Edit: 23/02/2010 14:41:09 by mellivora »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6830 on: 23/02/2010 17:47:50 »

Fascinating, B_Jim!!
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6831 on: 23/02/2010 17:55:14 »
My imperfect cure

Yesterday was Day Zero, and with more stress, I wasn't feeling great. I enrolled in cardiac rehab exercises, and I could only do half of what I did last time. I briefly napped late afternoon and that helped.

But today is "Day 1" and I do feel great. Which has NEVER happened before my treatment. And this has been consistent for over a year now.

So, even when my cure is not optimal at any given incident - it is a GIANT improvement over my old POIS life of 30+ years. I am very fortunate, and I thank this forum.
 

Offline lauracostis

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6832 on: 23/02/2010 21:39:37 »
about progesterone as dangerous, remember that hundreds of millions of people have been taking it for the last 20 years on a daily basis for birth control and many other things.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6833 on: 23/02/2010 21:59:20 »


about progesterone as dangerous, remember that hundreds of millions of people have been taking it for the last 20 years on a daily basis for birth control and many other things.



lauracostis: Women or men?
« Last Edit: 24/02/2010 00:02:45 by demografx »
 

Offline John21

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6834 on: 23/02/2010 22:08:30 »
Demo,
I'm wondering if you have had your homocystine levels checked? I am contemplating a connection between it and POIS. For one thing I belileve it can be depleted by stress, and it seems to be stressful events that have typically ushered in POIS for many people. You have had heart trouble, and there is a direct link between low  B12 and heart disease. Here is a list of potential troubles from low B12:

Quote
Symptoms Which Might Indicate a B12 Deficiency

Vitamin B12 deficiency can cause unusual neurological symptoms such as tremor, gait disturbance, severe pain, and can mimic MS (multiple sclerosis) or even Parkinsonís Syndrome. The physical signs and symptoms can often mimic other diseases and the diagnosis is frequently missed. An excellent book on the topic is: Could it Be B12? An Epidemic of Misdiagnosis by Sally M. Pacholok, R.N. and Jeffrey J Stuart, D.O. (1) B12 deficiency damages the myelin sheath around the nerve fibers, this is a soft fatty insulating material which is also damaged in demyelinating diseases such as multiple sclerosis.

Mental Changes:

Irritability, apathy, sleepiness, paranoia, personality changes, depression (including post-partum depression), memory loss, dementia, cognitive dysfunction or deterioration, fuzzy thinking, psychosis, dementia, hallucinations, violent behavior, in children; autistic behavior, developmental delay.

Neurological Signs and Symptoms:

Abnormal sensations (pain, tingling, and/or numbness of legs, arms trunk or anywhere),diminished sense of touch, pain or temperature (may mimic diabetic neuropathy Charcot foot), loss of position sense, weakness, clumsiness, tremor, any symptoms which may mimic parkinson's or multiple sclerosis, spasticity of muscles, incontinence, paralysis, vision changes, damage to optic nerve (optic neuritis).

Vascular Problems:

Atherosclerotic vascular disease is increased by B12 deficiency including; Coronary artery disease, TIAs, CVA, heart attack, heart failure, claudication, all associated with elevated homocysteine levels caused by B12 deficiency.

The "abonrmal sensations" could relate to your fingertips problem. I think it is great that testosterone is helping you, but I am wondering if B12 might be the root cause.

What do you think? The symptoms do line up with many of our complaints. 
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6835 on: 23/02/2010 22:18:25 »
Norethisterone/progesterone


Quote
I'm not sure what this means as to the potential relationship between norethisterone and cancer(no human studies done), but I thought I would post this link to be on the safe side:
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/eleventh/profiles/s139nore.pdf


Thanks for reposting this link Demo. It's obviously a very important potential risk to be aware of. Dr Dexter reported in his paper that Merck, the manufacturers of the drug, confirmed there were no known harmful side effects of norethisterone in (human) males. In the light of the National Toxicology Program's conclusions that you linked to, one is left wondering about long-term usage and its important to be aware of both reports.

(It should also be said that lots and lots of substances have been found to have carcinogenic effects, including many substances found in everyday foodstuffs and even chlorine that is used to treat drinking water. The carcinogenic risk from such substances seems to depend a lot on the concentration of that substance in the body which can accumulate over time with long-term use/ingestion. I don't know how the carcinogenic risk of norethisterone would compare to say a substance found in shampoo or any of a host of other apparently carcinogenic substances we ingest everyday. Tea can have carcinogenic and anti-cancer properties! It's a minefield!

I guess it's up to the individual to assess what an acceptable level of risk is but the information available to make that decision seems to be difficult to interpret and sometimes conflicting).

Incidentally, if anyone wants an idea of the range of carcinogens we encounter everyday you can start with this google search:
http://www.google.com/search?q=carcinogen+everyday+food&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en
 

edit: also not sure how this affects progesterone


Further to my post above, if norethisterone is a synthetic version of progesterone and is carcinogenic, one might also expect naturally occuring progesterone to be carcinogenic and that does indeed seem to be the case!! (though not necessarily proven in humans)
http://www.google.com/search?q=progesterone+carcinogenic&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en

Progesterone also has anti-cancer properties!:
http://www.google.com/search?q=progesterone+inhibits+cancer&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en

Which just goes to show how careful you need to be when assessing risks of chemicals! This MAY mean that norethisterone is no more carcinogenic than the progesterone produced by a normal body and might even have anti-cancer properties too!



Mellivora, many thanks for your sober reflection on this complicated subject!
« Last Edit: 24/02/2010 06:45:10 by demografx »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6836 on: 23/02/2010 23:48:34 »

Demo,

I'm wondering if you have had your homocystine levels checked?...wondering if B12 might be the root cause...What do you think?...... The symptoms do line up with many of our complaints. 


Makes perfect sense, John.

But at this time, I'm frankly overwhelmed with medical tests, prescriptions (added a huge amount of new ones!), cardiac rehab, re-testing and re-starting testosterone treatment, etc. following open-heart surgery.

Cardiac rehab yesterday recommended 2-3 new medical ideas....and I just can't deal with it all at the same time.

But I will. I put your suggestions in my personal follow up file.

Thank you very much!
« Last Edit: 23/02/2010 23:56:43 by demografx »
 

Offline lauracostis

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6837 on: 24/02/2010 07:06:37 »
If we look steroid hormones synthesis :



We have Demo's succes with testo on the right,
Agjchs 's succes with DHEA right side,
scientific study succes with progesterone on the left side.

But progesterone can be converted to the right side by hydroxyprogesterone/androstenedione pathway if needed (I suppose in Pois).

Some of us find stress (cortisol) makes the Pois stronger, and some guys are healed with Relora (less cortisol, more DHEA).




demo look at bjims flow chart, progesterone can be converted into "any" of the final steroids in males and females. progesterone is a nessary precursor to aldosterone. if your body doesnt want to retain any more salt it can make any male or female anabolic steroid it pleases.  demo you have low t, your body would just convert it to testosterone. "show me a chemical that didnt cause cancer in rats." the chemists i know joke about that all the time, we eat artificial sweateners that cause grotesque cancer in rats. the synthetic progesterone prescribed was a pro-testosterone pathway steroid. progesterone is not a female hormone, it is a human and mammalian steroid. if you are a male and you do not make progesterone, you will not make aldosterone, with out aldosterone you will not be able to retain sodium used to filter your kidneys, your kidneys recycle the total volume of all your blood every 15-20 minutes, you would loose all your sodium ions very quickly with out aldosterone. if you have to much aldosterone in your system your body will use potassium in your kidneys to piss out excess sodium. progesterone is "vital" to human life, as for a cancer causing agent? no more than testosterone. anabolic steroids job are to cause tissue growth by replicating cells.  every day your body produces millions of cancer cells by accident while replicating. if your white blood cells cannot kill them fast enough, they will replicate themselves, then you have a problem. as far as we know progesterone does not directly affect the growth of tissue in males, only via proxy-pathway to testosterone.
 

Offline lauracostis

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6838 on: 24/02/2010 07:52:42 »
when i look at that hormone cascade chart above all i see is that progesterone is there to give a way out if your two main chemical pathways are blocked. when pregnenolone goes to convert to (hydroxypregnenolone and then to DHEA) if these two pathways are blocked by lack of cofactors or coenzymes the hormone pathway will stop short of it final product.  if the body does not get the final products it wants it will start to produce more pregnenolone, pregnenolone will then convert to(hydroxypregnenolone and then to DHEA). this cycle will continue intill the body gets what it wants, building up more and more of the transition steroids (that have no use). they are irreversible compounds and will become toxic in the body. while this is happening the alternate bipass steroid pathway through progesterone will be taking place very slowly.  by the time the body has produced the desired steroids through the prosterone bipass there will be a crap ton of irreversible transition steroids causing havock in your body.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6839 on: 24/02/2010 19:09:03 »

To Lauracostis, B_Jim, and Mellivora

I'm delighted that the issue of carcinogenic relationships has been discussed so thoroughly by the 3 of you!

Thank you very much!

Demo
« Last Edit: 24/02/2010 19:42:51 by demografx »
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6840 on: 24/02/2010 19:16:44 »
In my personal investigations for a testosterone "cure" I went through the tortures of the damned with cancer possibilities. I finally realized: so did the medical and research communities! No consensus.

Finally, I went with the New England Journal of Medicine's findings that prostate cancer and testosterone were not related, and a highly regarded personal endo who agreed.

But I'm sure there are medical professionals out there who still believe in the carcinogenicity of testosterone! In fact, even my endo and other NEJM "believers" still require regular PSA's and digital exams...just in case?  ;D

 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6841 on: 24/02/2010 19:31:06 »

[From list of John's B12 deficiency characteristics]

The "abnormal sensations" could relate to your fingertips problem.


John, thank you, this is the only time in 30+ years of "fingertip sensation agony" that any explanation ever made any sense, including that from my self-named "King Of Dermatology", who first tried to prove that my symptom couldn't be true (I used to break out with dermatitis upon POIS onset, so he made me prove it by coming in for personal exam the very next POIS onset, which I did, and proved The King wrong!)...The King finally gave me a useless Rx for a medicated hand lotion! I should've charged him!!;D

 

Offline John21

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6842 on: 24/02/2010 21:14:25 »
Demo, I don't know if you would want to try taking a dosage of B12 before O to test it out sometime. As far as I can determine there is no danger of taking it if you don't really need it. But of course you should check with your doc for assurance, especially as you are currently on medication. (Sometimes they know things ;D)
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6843 on: 24/02/2010 22:33:48 »

Haha! Sometimes! Yes, great idea, John, l will ask my new GP Monday. Thanks!
 

Offline lauracostis

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6844 on: 24/02/2010 23:07:25 »
if b12 is the problem taking it orally wont help, i have tested almost every vitamin repeatedly with no results, i have sublingual tabs of b12 that are 50x more potent that the recommended daily average. if i have a vitamin deficiency its going to take an injection to get it into my body.  there must be quite a few people on this forum who have been given a b12 shot before.  they usually make you feel good for a couple of days, even if you dont need any b12. b12 is also commonly checked on routine blood tests.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6845 on: 25/02/2010 01:31:45 »

Laurac, I've done extensive blood tests, is there another name for B12-testing/results?
 

Offline lauracostis

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6846 on: 25/02/2010 02:41:12 »

Laurac, I've done extensive blood tests, is there another name for B12-testing/results?
no demo there is not another name for vitamin b12 test that i am aware of. my doctor took my vitamin 12 during the first set of tests she ran on me.
here are my results
 
vitamin b12 (pg/ml)  mine=405   the range was 211-911

these results are from 01/19/08 when i wasnt quite sure if my symptoms were caused by pois, i was be checked because of severe fatigue.
your doctor can most definitely run a vitamin b12 test on you.
 

Offline demografx

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6847 on: 25/02/2010 03:13:07 »

Great. Thanks, laurac! I'll ask him Monday when I do my lipid panel.
 

Offline lauracostis

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6848 on: 25/02/2010 03:48:23 »
demo my homocystine levels were in the normal range on the same test also.
 

Offline John21

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
« Reply #6849 on: 25/02/2010 10:23:53 »
Lauracostis,
I think taking B12 with some folic acid helps in it's absorption (I tried it with spinach salad). I find it suprising that it would make a person feel better even if they don't need it.

This
doctor claims the following:
Quote
Testing for the Diagnosis of B12 Deficiency

Most doctors do not test for B12, and even they do a blood test, they do the standard serum B12 which is unreliable.

And here is his the study he references.
 

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Re: Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome (POIS)
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