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Author Topic: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?  (Read 2978 times)

Offline Thebox

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Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« on: 10/03/2016 12:28:28 »
In a recent result gravitational waves were shown to affect a laser beam ,  so can we conclude that ''time dilation'' is an affect of gravity on light rather than an affect on time?



 

Offline JoeBrown

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #1 on: 10/03/2016 13:48:06 »
The LIGO observatories don't measure "how" gravity changes laser light.  They use lasers to measure change in space between two objects.  Which suggests a flaw your underlying premise.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #2 on: 10/03/2016 14:24:41 »
The LIGO observatories don't measure "how" gravity changes laser light.  They use lasers to measure change in space between two objects.  Which suggests a flaw your underlying premise.


I thought Ligo shows an interference pattern in a laser, so this must affect the timing of the laser?

 

Offline JoeBrown

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #3 on: 10/03/2016 14:31:31 »
It does, but it's caused by change in distance, caused by (due to) gravity waves.  Sound waves and seismic disturbance also cause similar interference, they make the sensitivity of the equipment difficult to manage. Since those disturbances are more easily detected, they're also accounted for. 
« Last Edit: 10/03/2016 14:36:35 by JoeBrown »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #4 on: 10/03/2016 20:24:54 »
Quote
can we conclude that ''time dilation'' is an affect of gravity on light rather than an affect on time?
Gravity is a static thing (as envisaged by Newton).
Einstein's general relativity showed that a static gravitational field does affect time. And since time is also used to measure the speed of light, it also affects how an observer measures light in her laboratory. This effect has been demonstrated on Earth, by doing measurements on two adjacent floors of a laboratory building.

Einstein's general relativity also showed that a changing gravitational field can cause ripples of gravity to spread out - these are the gravitational waves reported recently. But the effect from an event a billion light years away is very small compared to the steady, fairly strong gravitational field of the Earth.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #5 on: 11/03/2016 23:12:17 »
Quote
can we conclude that ''time dilation'' is an affect of gravity on light rather than an affect on time?
Gravity is a static thing (as envisaged by Newton).
Einstein's general relativity showed that a static gravitational field does affect time. And since time is also used to measure the speed of light, it also affects how an observer measures light in her laboratory. This effect has been demonstrated on Earth, by doing measurements on two adjacent floors of a laboratory building.

Einstein's general relativity also showed that a changing gravitational field can cause ripples of gravity to spread out - these are the gravitational waves reported recently. But the effect from an event a billion light years away is very small compared to the steady, fairly strong gravitational field of the Earth.

I am pretty sure you misunderstood the question Evan, I am trying to think how to reword it so will try with ''gibberish''


If a tap drips and we was to measure the rate of drip , we would be measuring the rate of drip, the rate of drip is only associated to the drip and not related to anything else (yes I know gravity relationship)



If we was to measure the rate of a flowing stream of drips , the rate would be related to the stream and not related to anything else


So if we to measure the rate of a caesium atom , the rate is related to the caesium atom and nothing else.




So my question is , how do you or anyone in the world consider that the rate of the caesium atom speeded up or slowed down is related to time?


The only relationship that exists is the invention in peoples heads and false relationship.

To say the rate of the caesium change affects time, is contradictory and saying that the caesium atom is time and is what controls all time, it is absolutely deluded to define the caesium rate as time.


This is crazy and it reminds of me of some delusional religion, the caesium atom that we use to measure time can not effect time.  The rate of the caesium  is not time, it is absolutely insane to think so and say so .






« Last Edit: 11/03/2016 23:20:26 by Thebox »
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #6 on: 12/03/2016 01:00:54 »
Quote from: TheBox
how do you or anyone in the world consider that the rate of the cesium atom speeded up or slowed down is related to time?
When you are deep in a gravitational well (think a laboratory on floor 2 of a building), the cesium atoms and everything else in that laboratory will go more slowly.

If you now move the laboratory equipment to floor 3 of the same building, you are not so far down in the gravitational well, and the cesium atoms and everything else in that laboratory will go less slowly.

Note that the time is also slowed by the same amount for a person in the laboratory, so to them, everything is going at the "proper" rate. It is only when you compare the rate of time on floor 2 & floor 3 that you can detect that time flows slightly more slowly on floor 2 than on floor 3.

When time goes more slowly, the slowed vibration of the  cesium atoms is a symptom of this. It turns out that we can count the vibrations of a cesium fountain very precisely, so this is a good way to detect the slowing of time between floor 2 & floor 3. In fact, the effect is so subtle, that this is about the only way we can detect the difference between two adjacent floors of a building.

The difference in the flow of time is greater between the ground and a satellite in space, so you need less sophisticated equipment to detect the difference in the flow of time - you don't even need cesium atoms. You can use anything that can measure time pretty accurately.
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #7 on: 12/03/2016 08:50:43 »
This is crazy and it reminds of me of some delusional religion, the caesium atom that we use to measure time can not effect time.  The rate of the caesium  is not time, it is absolutely insane to think so and say so .
What you say is absolutely correct, but why do you keep saying it. You've been told before that no scientists believe that the rate of caesium is time or that it affects time. Read what Evan has written and try to understand.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #8 on: 12/03/2016 11:08:31 »

What you say is absolutely correct, but why do you keep saying it. You've been told before that no scientists believe that the rate of caesium is time or that it affects time. Read what Evan has written and try to understand.


Evan says that when the rate of a ''table'' slows down, time is moving slower, that is contradictory to what you just said, what do you mean by time slows down then?


Do you actually mean the clock is a faulty mechanism and not a constant time keeper?


Are you trying to say light is time?


IN either instant neither the caesium or light is time so how can we conclude that time slows down without evidence?









« Last Edit: 12/03/2016 11:12:06 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #9 on: 12/03/2016 15:18:34 »
Evan says that when the rate of a ''table'' slows down,
I can't see where he said that

Do you actually mean the clock is a faulty mechanism and not a constant time keeper?
No

Are you trying to say light is time?
No

IN either instant neither the caesium or light is time so how can we conclude that time slows down without evidence?
You have been told many times that the caesium is used in a clock, a very, very accurate clock. Reread what Evan said, you clearly have not understood it.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #10 on: 12/03/2016 18:40:36 »

You have been told many times that the caesium is used in a clock, a very, very accurate clock. Reread what Evan said, you clearly have not understood it.

Clearly I am not understanding,

Evan said - ''When time goes more slowly, the slowed vibration of the  cesium atoms is a symptom of this.'' 


By what relationship?   you have just admitted that the caesium atom is not time, so what relationship do you imagine exists between time and the caesium atom? 


you said - 'You have been told many times that the caesium is used in a clock, a very, very accurate clock.''


A very accurate clock that is not connected to or related to time.  So how do you presume this none related rate of the caesium atom slowing down has anything to do with time?













« Last Edit: 12/03/2016 18:50:04 by Thebox »
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #11 on: 12/03/2016 22:56:53 »
Instead of thinking of a cesium atom think of an extremely accurate but gigantic clock whose hands can be seen lightyears away. If you have one such clock in deep space and another near a black hole then time dilation would be observable. Until then please listen to the professionals.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #12 on: 13/03/2016 08:47:12 »
Until then please listen to the professionals.


Why? do you think people who get paid for their job are any smarter than somebody who does not get paid for thinking about the same thing?


I have listened to ''professionals'' for several year, I am listening but I am not hearing any plausible answer.


I ask again what relationship?


There is absolutely no relationship between the caesium atom and time.   It is quite clear that displacement of the Caesium is the cause of change in rate and relationship.


P.s I make a prediction this post will be moved again in the avoidance of concrete answers.







« Last Edit: 13/03/2016 09:33:09 by Thebox »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #13 on: 14/03/2016 10:56:08 »
Is there nobody on this forum members or mods who can answer direct questions?


What is the relationship between time and the Caesium atom?  a rather simple question I am asking that should be easy to answer. 

 

Offline puppypower

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #14 on: 14/03/2016 12:39:29 »
If you look at the flow of time, time moves forward to the future. Time does not cycle like a clock. We don't periodically go back to being born, unless you believe in reincarnation. But even with reincarnation, we change into something else; bug, but will not repeat. Reincarnation assumes time is a helix and not a cycle. The Cesium atom and light both cycle and repeat, therefore neither follow the true nature of time; except in the short term. We are using phenomena to measure time, that are not natural expressions of time, since time does not cycle but is unidirectional. It is like measuring linear distance with a circle.

Clock time, which cycles, is a manmade convention which came from the needs of engineering; making a way to measure time that is more compact and less labor intensive. Time only moves in one direction, which is the future. We get older each day and can never repeat the past, like a clock assumes we can do. There is a disconnect.

The cyclic clock is good for work or school where productivity means you need to follow a cyclic routine. Productivity could explain the cyclic clock, whose goal is to alter the nature of time; naturally changing, so people don't change; dogma, but stay in one spot in the assembly line day after day.

If work was in the image of time; always changing to the future and never repeating, work would be more like games and sports, which are unique; changes, each time we play the game. The clock has to harness the spontaneity of time to make it cycle, which takes work/energy. This hidden energy is like hidden wires for a magic trick.

The concept of entropy, on the other hand, is much closer to the concept of time, compared to energy, atoms and clocks. Entropy will spontaneously move in one direction; future, while never spontaneously cycling backwards, unless we add energy/work to make it go backwards. The EM force is cycling and not going in one direction.

A better phenomena to measure time dilation would be an entropy clock, such as the rotten fish clock. In this clock, time is measured by the irreversible decay of the fish, until it stinks a certain amount at 10 meters. When the cat looks up, it is one unit of time. The entropy clock does not cycle, since we can't un-stink the fish even if we try. This is how time works.

We can slow the flow of time, within an entropy clock, with refrigeration. Refrigeration lowers the energy that is available for the entropy increase. If there is time dilation, one would expect that the flow of time in the entropy clock should also slow, such that it will take longer for the fish to stink; decays slower. The question becomes is there any correlation between gravity and chilling, since both can slow an entropy clock?

The gravitational potential energy is lower the denser the matter is packed. While the gravitational potential energy is higher the more spread out the matter is. We will get a deep space-time well from a neutron star of mass M, but a shallow space-time well from a gas cloud of the same mass M. In terms of GR, less gravitational potential energy; denser, means more time dilation. Less potential energy; temperature, also means more chill.

If the universe is expanding then there is an increase in gravitational potential, which means the entropy clocks should all be speeding up.
« Last Edit: 14/03/2016 12:50:47 by puppypower »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #15 on: 14/03/2016 13:13:14 »
If you look at the flow of time, time moves forward to the future. Time does not cycle like a clock. We don't periodically go back to being born, unless you believe in reincarnation. But even with reincarnation, we change into something else; bug, but will not repeat. Reincarnation assumes time is a helix and not a cycle. The Cesium atom and light both cycle and repeat, therefore neither follow the true nature of time; except in the short term. We are using phenomena to measure time, that are not natural expressions of time, since time does not cycle but is unidirectional. It is like measuring linear distance with a circle.

Clock time, which cycles, is a manmade convention which came from the needs of engineering; making a way to measure time that is more compact and less labor intensive. Time only moves in one direction, which is the future. We get older each day and can never repeat the past, like a clock assumes we can do. There is a disconnect.

The cyclic clock is good for work or school where productivity means you need to follow a cyclic routine. Productivity could explain the cyclic clock, whose goal is to alter the nature of time; naturally changing, so people don't change; dogma, but stay in one spot in the assembly line day after day.

If work was in the image of time; always changing to the future and never repeating, work would be more like games and sports, which are unique; changes, each time we play the game. The clock has to harness the spontaneity of time to make it cycle, which takes work/energy. This hidden energy is like hidden wires for a magic trick.

The concept of entropy, on the other hand, is much closer to the concept of time, compared to energy, atoms and clocks. Entropy will spontaneously move in one direction; future, while never spontaneously cycling backwards, unless we add energy/work to make it go backwards. The EM force is cycling and not going in one direction.

A better phenomena to measure time dilation would be an entropy clock, such as the rotten fish clock. In this clock, time is measured by the irreversible decay of the fish, until it stinks a certain amount at 10 meters. When the cat looks up, it is one unit of time. The entropy clock does not cycle, since we can't un-stink the fish even if we try. This is how time works.

We can slow the flow of time, within an entropy clock, with refrigeration. Refrigeration lowers the energy that is available for the entropy increase. If there is time dilation, one would expect that the flow of time in the entropy clock should also slow, such that it will take longer for the fish to stink; decays slower. The question becomes is there any correlation between gravity and chilling, since both can slow an entropy clock?

The gravitational potential energy is lower the denser the matter is packed. While the gravitational potential energy is higher the more spread out the matter is. We will get a deep space-time well from a neutron star of mass M, but a shallow space-time well from a gas cloud of the same mass M. In terms of GR, less gravitational potential energy; denser, means more time dilation. Less potential energy; temperature, also means more chill.

If the universe is expanding then there is an increase in gravitational potential, which means the entropy clocks should all be speeding up.


This is my problem, yourself and science are relating time to a decay rate as such, like the rotting fish.

I believe your very first sentence is contradictory.

Quote
''If you look at the flow of time, time moves forward to the future''


''Time'' never moves forward, I have had plenty of agreement that anything after zero is instantaneous history, so 0 does not really move anywhere.  I accept that yes we get older and decay but this does not necessarily  mean that the exterior ''time'' ever ages.


I consider we have  two sorts of time, firstly we have ''exterior'' time with a k=0 or k=n value that is an invariant, it neither contracts or expands and is a ''singularity whole'', Newtonian thinking I believe. (exterior is also interior at the same time)


Secondly we have space-time, which can contract and expand but is based on the ''interior'' which is also the ''exterior'' and EMR/gravitational based, we observe the length contraction of ''light'' k=1 but k=0 that is behind the ''light'' is unaltered.


So I think there is a time dilation and not a time dilation at the same time, a sort of paradox which I have demonstrated previously in other threads using Hard drives and camcorders .


I do not think the clock on a moving spaceship is a slowing down of time because the rate of 0 can not change, I think the effect means you can just travel a greater ''distance . ''



Analogy

Imagine we had two spaceships travelling a parallel journey but a length apart travelling at the same speed.   Both observers measure each others length, to be the same rest length, each clock runs at the same rate, both observers travel the same distance.


Now imagine the return trip, but on one of the spaceships the clock ran at a slower rate but the speed and parallel journey remained the same.


Both observers still measure the same rest length of each other,  both observers still travel the same distance in the same amount of k=0 time, however one of the astronauts aged less.

At point K in the journey one of the astronauts ages and dies, the living astronaut observes they are still parallel. The living observer travels more distance then they die.

What do you think of this?



+ve(x)=+ve(x) ≠ +ve(xt)

Ψ(c/d)=Ψ(c/d)



























« Last Edit: 14/03/2016 13:32:43 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #16 on: 14/03/2016 13:27:44 »
What do I think of this? I think you are straying into new theories rather than sticking with the question.
I think you are unlikely to get answers to your questions because the disconnect between your understanding of time, and other concepts, is so great that many people have just given up trying.
If you look in new theories you will find lots of examples where the level of understanding of the poster is so poor that meaningful conversation is unlikely. Look at the one about how a light bulb works for eg, little point in trying to discuss it.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #17 on: 14/03/2016 13:48:28 »
What do I think of this? I think you are straying into new theories rather than sticking with the question.
I think you are unlikely to get answers to your questions because the disconnect between your understanding of time, and other concepts, is so great that many people have just given up trying.
If you look in new theories you will find lots of examples where the level of understanding of the poster is so poor that meaningful conversation is unlikely. Look at the one about how a light bulb works for eg, little point in trying to discuss it.

How can you perceive I am straying from the question? time dilation is related to the questions I am asking.  It is not a new theory, k=0 is Newton and K=1 is Einstein, I am using your maths that Alan I think it was showed me, +ve .

I provided my diagram to clarify the question.   It quite a simple question, I am asking if k=0 remains unaltered behind the light and my speculative question suggests so, it suggests there is no length contraction or time dilation of k=0 but there is a ''time'' expansion of k=1.

You seem to be ''attacking'' me rather than answering the question I give you to think about. 

And light bulbs lol , I understand what I am talking about Colin, I have my idea which is based on everything we already know, the singularity I keep  mentioning is not something made up, it is based on science and needs science facts to make it ''work''.








« Last Edit: 14/03/2016 13:55:04 by Thebox »
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #18 on: 14/03/2016 16:50:22 »
There is a difference between the cyclic events that we use to measure time, and the nature of time itself. Time is more like a line between the past and future.  The things we use to measure and represent time, such as clocks, energy, atoms, etc., have cyclic natures; waves. Time does not cycle, so time is not a wave but a line. If you try to represent a line with a sine wave, you need will add extra distance; curved path of the sine wave, of less distance using quantum jumps. The latter is how the sine wave intersects the x=0 line.

I cannot predict what will happen in the future with any accuracy. I cannot predict who will be the next president in the USA. But I can predict what a clock will say tomorrow. I can predict the period of the Cesium atom or the wavelength of any quanta of energy today and tomorrow, since these are all cyclic events.

If I plan my day around the clock and the calendar, I can predict where I will be tomorrow, because I will use force of will to make my timeline a wave; in my mind. I predict I will get up a 6AM tomorrow. This does not make me psychic. All that has happened is I have coordinated my impression of time, with a clock, which places me at a certain place tomorrow at 6AM. When I am on vacation and I am off the clock, time flows normally, without cycles and with much less predictability. The clock is a tool that allows one to leave the time line and predict the future by controlling the future.

Say we had a time line, such as a human life from birth to death. Each day will be different. The exceptions will be connected to social convention; clocks and calendars. However, for any given time of day or for any given holiday, no two of these times are exactly the same. The cyclic nature of the calendar attempts to create a repeat pattern, via will power, but the flow of time is not dependent on this and will be reflected in not two of the same holidays; year to year, exactly the same. If anything, many people get depressed trying to cycle time, by recreating the past, only to find the present is not the same; 1st anniversary is not the same as the 2nd, even if you go to the same restaurant, order the same food and wear the same clothes. The clock attempts to create determinism.

The question is how do find the difference between the linear nature of a time and the manmade curves, twists and cycles, based on clocks and calendars; social conventions. Clocks and calendars give us more control over the future. If we had no clocks and therefore no cyclic rituals, it would be harder to predict the future by means of these rituals. Time is not deterministic, while clocks attempt to make time deterministic.

Say one had ESP and could predict the future beyond the deterministic constraints of clocks and calendars. There would need to be other types of natural clocks which can also help determine the future. In other words, just as the calendar tells us tomorrow will be casual dress day and we can therefore predict people will be wearing jeans, a natural calendar or natural clock, generated by physical laws, would regulate the time line to the future. Earthquakes will happen in the future based on the potentials that build in the earth crust; natural calendar. These may not be cyclic.

It comes down to entropy. The extra energy implicit of the human calendar provides a type of mental force for conformity. This force provides the potential to align the future; controls entropy.
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #19 on: 15/03/2016 12:31:22 »
I am sorry if I went off topic, but I thought it was important to point out the difference between indeterminate time; time line, and determinate time; cycles and waves. Indeterminate time is closer to the concept of entropy. Entropy does not spontaneously cycle, but follows a line to the future. Determinate time is more like a wave, that repeats itself thereby making it easy to predict the future. We as humans, align ourselves with clocks, thereby placing ourselves in a repeatable future pattern, like a wave, so we can better control the future. 

Natural instinct is more connected to indeterminate time and entropy. Evolution; physical and biological is not about the eternal looping of one species or one state of matter. Rather it is about a constant flux of change that does not loop. We may never see the dinosaurs again, naturally.

On the other hand, the needs of human civilization were better served by determinate time, which makes use of waves and repeat cycles. Determinate time may have been noticed by the movement of the sun, moon and stars, which all tend to cycle. These cycles allowed humans to align behavior to form to repeat cycles. This allowed humans to better control the future; determined by the calendar. The calendar became the oracle of choice. The horoscope is based on the cyclic alignment of the planets forming repeat cycles from which the fortune is told. Cyclic time is still the oracle of choice. 

Relativity tends focus on deterministic time and correlates this well. For most people this is the only expression of time that is taught in science, but not in philosophy. Deterministic time is a wave, with relativity applicable to most of the waves. Science has not done as much work with indeterminate time, which can't be fully expressed with waves and cyclic events. I have tried to show how one might include this via the concept of entropy, since this is the closest physical concept to indeterminate time.

Indeterminate time is the largest path of time, with determinate time forming smaller loops along the time line. For example, the expansion of the universe has not been consistent through the life of the universe. It is not acting like repeat pattern or wave but more like indeterminate time and entropy.

The red shift of energy, due to the expansion along the time line, does not change the cyclic nature of energy. However it does impact the wavelength and period of the energy waves. The impact of the larger indeterminate time line on the small waves and loops is to add entropy to energy. It makes all cyclic things change their cycles; clocks slow down, so we can't always willfully control the future if our calendar is not behaving. There is a constant need to recalculate the future, so we can keep it determinate. Science attempts to keep the clock accurate so the future is determined.

In my opinion, although this is commendable, if we use the larger time line and base the expansion on entropy we can sort of cut out the middle men. Or even better, we can use the speed of light as the ground state and move even further down the time line to the future. This is scary because it jumps out of the repeat into another loop; quantum jump. This is allowable in indeterminate time but not in determinate time.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #20 on: 15/03/2016 12:36:47 »
I am sorry if I went off topic, but I thought it was important to point out the difference between indeterminate time; time line, and determinate time; cycles and waves. Indeterminate time is closer to the concept of entropy. Entropy does not spontaneously cycle, but follows a line to the future. Determinate time is more like a wave, that repeats itself thereby making it easy to predict the future. We as humans, align ourselves with clocks, thereby placing ourselves in a repeatable future pattern, like a wave, so we can better control the future. 


I will reply the rest in a while, I just wanted to discuss the prediction of things, the only reason in my opinion that we can predict things, is because we can see the ''start'' and ''finish'' at the same time.

i.e we do not predict a planets path, we can observe where it is going to.


 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #21 on: 15/03/2016 12:39:56 »
I am sorry if I went off topic, but I thought it was important to point out the difference between indeterminate time; time line, and determinate time; cycles and waves. Indeterminate time is closer to the concept of entropy. Entropy does not spontaneously cycle, but follows a line to the future. Determinate time is more like a wave, that repeats itself thereby making it easy to predict the future. We as humans, align ourselves with clocks, thereby placing ourselves in a repeatable future pattern, like a wave, so we can better control the future. 


I will reply the rest in a while, I just wanted to discuss the prediction of things, the only reason in my opinion that we can predict things, is because we can see the ''start'' and ''finish'' at the same time.

i.e we do not predict a planets path, we can observe where it is going to.
The 2 of you are now pushing this soundly into new theories.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #22 on: 15/03/2016 12:46:42 »
Relativity tends focus on deterministic time and correlates this well. For most people this is the only expression of time that is taught in science, but not in philosophy. Deterministic time is a wave, with relativity applicable to most of the waves. Science has not done as much work with indeterminate time, which can't be fully expressed with waves and cyclic events. I have tried to show how one might include this via the concept of entropy, since this is the closest physical concept to indeterminate time.
Huh?  I thought me and Puppy was having a discussion , he is explaining some things to me very well.

I have asked for an answer which I am not getting from anyone else, Puppy is trying to answer me.

It is all content related Colin, it is hard to discuss one thing without discussing something related to the content.

I asked a simple question that nobody else seem's to be answering, so how do you suggest members proceed looking for an answer if you keep saying it is a new theory just because some opinions are mentioned in the discussion?

I am quite sure people know the difference between opinion and facts.

My question was Colin, what is the relationship between time and the Caesium atom?

If there is no relationship then why can't we discuss this looking for an answer?

 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #23 on: 15/03/2016 12:49:57 »
Relativity tends focus on deterministic time and correlates this well. For most people this is the only expression of time that is taught in science, but not in philosophy. Deterministic time is a wave, with relativity applicable to most of the waves. Science has not done as much work with indeterminate time, which can't be fully expressed with waves and cyclic events. I have tried to show how one might include this via the concept of entropy, since this is the closest physical concept to indeterminate time.

Interesting points , I totally agree , I think though the reasons for this are that Newtonian thinking and k=0 has no value in science really, it is negligible?

 
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #24 on: 15/03/2016 12:55:19 »
Well it look's like the New forum rule is to discuss and ask questions in the New theory section.


Confusing for sure.



 

The Naked Scientists Forum

Re: Does gravitation affect light rather than time?
« Reply #24 on: 15/03/2016 12:55:19 »

 

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