# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: Can gravity really interact with itself?  (Read 3698 times)

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #25 on: 16/03/2016 13:52:40 »
Quote from: TheBox
Gravity is the entirety of space, a gravity singularity,  mass is denser than space, all denser mass is attracted to denser mass through the gravity singularity made of the same but a less dense mass of space.

It's easy to bandy about words like "singularity", but what do you actually mean in this case?

How to explain it is not easy when you already have a definition, and to explain it I would need to go off topic ''slightly''.

For gravity to exist between things the important factor is that the something's must have Physical dimensions, without this fundamental thought only exists two points of 0 value, e.g a line without boundary or dimensions ,(just consider the dimension of the ''invisible man'' (n-dimensional), nothing or an entirety of vision boundary.

The inverse square law from either observers perspective contracts relative to increased radius apart, eventually the line between observers becomes this ''singularity'', neither observer having any affect on each other any more.
The length of k=1 becomes k=0 a singularity.   If we consider space-time only exists as a linearity between M1 and M2, then outside of this linearity exists k=0 , then consider K=0 interacts with itself.
e.g empty a full box to fill it with light and space,

Then gravity interacting with itself makes sense, space itself can be displaced by solidity, but space always contracts back to form. There is never a ''gap'' in space.

So this is what I mean by singularity, it has several factors.

(added- I have just considered that when the Earth is nearer the Sun , the Caesium atom by rights should dilate at ground state, the gravity of the Sun being stronger the nearer we are to it . It would be interesting if the Caesium still remains constant at ground state showing any change of rate would h ave to be then acceleration related rather than gravitational influence)

added sorry - ask yourself this - We have a box that is full of tightly packed dice, we can clearly observe that there is no space in the box.

When we remove a single ''dice'' , does space fill where there was no space or was the space already there to begin with?

« Last Edit: 16/03/2016 14:58:48 by Thebox »

#### Bill S

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #26 on: 18/03/2016 18:02:23 »
Jeffrey, going back to your link: http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/gravity_of_gravity and the statement that gravity begets gravity;

Quote
One reason why the physics of general relativity is much more difficult than that of Newton's theory of gravity or the theory of electrodynamics is a property called non-linearity. In short, gravity can beget further gravity - where gravitational systems are concerned, the whole is not the sum of its parts.

Christopher Baird (email) says:

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…… they are being sloppy with their wording. All this website is saying is that gravity is ultimately non-linear, which is correct. It is not saying that gravity can be created out of nowhere…..

#### Bill S

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #27 on: 18/03/2016 18:08:02 »
Quote from: TheBox
added sorry - ask yourself this - We have a box that is full of tightly packed dice, we can clearly observe that there is no space in the box.

When we remove a single ''dice'' , does space fill where there was no space or was the space already there to begin with?

The space must already be there, or the dice would not be able to occupy it.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #28 on: 18/03/2016 20:49:14 »
Quote from: TheBox
added sorry - ask yourself this - We have a box that is full of tightly packed dice, we can clearly observe that there is no space in the box.

When we remove a single ''dice'' , does space fill where there was no space or was the space already there to begin with?

The space must already be there, or the dice would not be able to occupy it.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #29 on: 18/03/2016 21:50:01 »
Jeffrey, going back to your link: http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlights/gravity_of_gravity and the statement that gravity begets gravity;

Quote
One reason why the physics of general relativity is much more difficult than that of Newton's theory of gravity or the theory of electrodynamics is a property called non-linearity. In short, gravity can beget further gravity - where gravitational systems are concerned, the whole is not the sum of its parts.

Christopher Baird (email) says:

Quote
…… they are being sloppy with their wording. All this website is saying is that gravity is ultimately non-linear, which is correct. It is not saying that gravity can be created out of nowhere…..

It is a situation that can be argued either way. The energies are so low that it would be almost impossible to verify either view experimentally. Gravity wave observations may provide clues over time.

#### evan_au

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #30 on: 18/03/2016 23:59:39 »
Quote from: TheBox
For gravity to exist between things the important factor is that the something's must have Physical dimensions
This is not accurate - the physical dimensions do not matter in most instances.

The Earth orbits the Sun in 365.24 days.
• If the Sun were turned into a neutron star of the same mass, only 10km across, the Earth would maintain the exact same orbit.
• If the Sun were turned into a black hole of the same mass, only 6km across, the Earth would maintain the exact same orbit.
• There is believed to be a singularity at the center of a black hole, which has no dimensions. If the mass of the Sun were compressed into this zero size and infinite density, Earth could maintain the same orbit (making a lot of assumptions here about "naked singularities").
It is easy to show that your weight on Earth is the same if the Earth's mass were concentrated at a point at the center of the Earth. (Well, it was easy for my physics teacher; I would need to think about it for a while...)

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The inverse square law from either observers perspective contracts relative to increased radius apart, eventually the line between observers becomes this ''singularity'', neither observer having any affect on each other any more.
This is what confuses your readers - you are talking about the gravitational force decreasing with distance, until it becomes effectively zero at large distances. You then call this zero force "a singularity".

There is a perfectly good definition of "singularity" in mathematics and physics, meaning "infinity", eg "infinite density at the center of a black hole", or "infinite gravitational force at the center of a black hole".

Here you have taken a word meaning "infinite force", and used it for "zero force". (...or maybe you meant infinite distance?)

#### lightarrow

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #31 on: 19/03/2016 11:22:36 »
Not so fast lightarrow... ;)
GR is a theory of gravity.  We do in fact observe there to be gravitational fields,
No. Where would you observe such "gravitational fields" if you use GR?
Quote
and, to say so, how do you then explain the GR 'field equations'.  What 'field' are they equating?
It's just a name. IIRC, Einstein initially  called them "equations of the gravitational field" but then he realized it was wrong and so changed the name in "field equations of gravity" or something alike.
Quote
The Maxwell equations are a description of the electromagnetic fields and cannot be linked to gravity via GR.
And what does it relate with what I wrote about GR?
Quote
What are you saying here?  Are you stating that GR constitutes an incorrect description of gravity?
????
It's writing "gravitational field" which is wrong in GR because is to interprete GR in an incorrect way.
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That by stating a phenomenon that we know exists as non existent, that GR just 'fixes' the fact of the existence of a gravitational field by simply ignoring it?
You're wrong. The existence of a "gravitational field" is not a "fact", is just "a theory-dependent interpretation".
According to newtonian theory, gravity is a field, according to GR is not.

--
lightarrow

#### lightarrow

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #32 on: 19/03/2016 11:37:15 »
Quote from: lightarrow
According to GR, there isn't any gravitational field.
I am no expert (and I can't read German), but I heard that Einstein originally produced General Relativity as a gravitational field theory, inspired by Maxwell's electromagnetic field theory.

The geometric interpretation and application of Riemann Geometry came soon after, when people realized that Einstein's equations were similar to those developed for quite different purposes - which opened up a new set of mathematical tools which could be applied to General Relativity.

Perhaps the analytical advantages of the geometric interpretation have overshadowed the original field theory?
I only know that Einstein tried a lot but at the end, only the geometrization of spacetime worked, all the other methods didn't.

--
lightarrow

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #33 on: 19/03/2016 12:43:39 »
Not so fast lightarrow... ;)
GR is a theory of gravity.  We do in fact observe there to be gravitational fields,
No. Where would you observe such "gravitational fields" if you use GR?
Quote
and, to say so, how do you then explain the GR 'field equations'.  What 'field' are they equating?
It's just a name. IIRC, Einstein initially  called them "equations of the gravitational field" but then he realized it was wrong and so changed the name in "field equations of gravity" or something alike.
Quote
The Maxwell equations are a description of the electromagnetic fields and cannot be linked to gravity via GR.
And what does it relate with what I wrote about GR?
Quote
What are you saying here?  Are you stating that GR constitutes an incorrect description of gravity?
????
It's writing "gravitational field" which is wrong in GR because is to interprete GR in an incorrect way.
Quote
That by stating a phenomenon that we know exists as non existent, that GR just 'fixes' the fact of the existence of a gravitational field by simply ignoring it?
You're wrong. The existence of a "gravitational field" is not a "fact", is just "a theory-dependent interpretation".
According to newtonian theory, gravity is a field, according to GR is not.

--
lightarrow

Ah, now I see what you mean. That's a very good point.

#### jeffreyH

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #34 on: 19/03/2016 12:47:25 »
Quote from: lightarrow
According to GR, there isn't any gravitational field.
I am no expert (and I can't read German), but I heard that Einstein originally produced General Relativity as a gravitational field theory, inspired by Maxwell's electromagnetic field theory.

The geometric interpretation and application of Riemann Geometry came soon after, when people realized that Einstein's equations were similar to those developed for quite different purposes - which opened up a new set of mathematical tools which could be applied to General Relativity.

Perhaps the analytical advantages of the geometric interpretation have overshadowed the original field theory?
I only know that Einstein tried a lot but at the end, only the geometrization of spacetime worked, all the other methods didn't.

--
lightarrow

Do you have any links to or titles of reference material? I am keen to pursue this.

#### timey

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##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #35 on: 19/03/2016 16:55:57 »
Not so fast lightarrow... ;)
GR is a theory of gravity.  We do in fact observe there to be gravitational fields,
No. Where would you observe such "gravitational fields" if you use GR?
Quote
and, to say so, how do you then explain the GR 'field equations'.  What 'field' are they equating?
It's just a name. IIRC, Einstein initially  called them "equations of the gravitational field" but then he realized it was wrong and so changed the name in "field equations of gravity" or something alike.
Quote
The Maxwell equations are a description of the electromagnetic fields and cannot be linked to gravity via GR.
And what does it relate with what I wrote about GR?
Quote
What are you saying here?  Are you stating that GR constitutes an incorrect description of gravity?
????
It's writing "gravitational field" which is wrong in GR because is to interprete GR in an incorrect way.
Quote
That by stating a phenomenon that we know exists as non existent, that GR just 'fixes' the fact of the existence of a gravitational field by simply ignoring it?
You're wrong. The existence of a "gravitational field" is not a "fact", is just "a theory-dependent interpretation".
According to newtonian theory, gravity is a field, according to GR is not.

--
lightarrow

How do the Maxwell equations relate to what your saying about GR?

Well, quite clearly they """don't""" relate to GR, and this is in fact a problem!!!

Einstein set out to achieve a theory of gravity, armed with Newtons theory of gravity, Maxwells equations of electromagnetic, and his own Special Relativity...  BUT... under the remit of GR as is, the link between Maxwell's equations and GR isn't possible... Einstein did not actually achieve his goal!

The problem with GR not relating to Maxwell's equations directly results in the lacking of a theory of quantum gravitation, resulting in our 2 best working theories, these being GR and Quantum, rendered as incompatible with each other, resulting in our lack of understanding in the origins of our universe.

Most theoretical physicists have come to the conclusion, especially since the Higgs came in at 125.9 GeV, ruling out both the anticipated, and hoped for Super Symmetry theory at 115 GeV... and ruling out the Multi Verse theory at 140 GeV, that something somewhere in our current understanding of physics is seriously askew!

I personally believe that it is the whole mass charge equivalence considerations that are throwing everything off.  If one considers that mass is mass, and energy is energy, whereby the phenomenon of time is a byproduct of energy, then the working parameters of GR look much different when considering length and distance observations as being 'time' related...

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: Can gravity really interact with itself?
« Reply #35 on: 19/03/2016 16:55:57 »