# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: What happens when a balloon inflates?  (Read 5662 times)

#### Thebox

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##### What happens when a balloon inflates?
« on: 16/03/2016 23:26:07 »
Sorry for the blunt title I did not know what to call it has a question, maybe the mods would kindly adjust.

I have had a thought on my mind all day, a confusing thought that I have concluded it must be an act of ''magic''.

Here is the thought, maybe you can help me out with this  to clear my thought

Imagine a deflated balloon.

In the interior of the deflated balloon is a small volume of space we will call this (A-space) and around the exterior of the deflated balloon is open space, we will call this (B-space)

Ok so now let us inflate the balloon by blowing air from our lungs into the deflated balloon to inflate it, expanding the balloon.

So here is my problem, How does the exterior space get inside the balloon increasing the interior volume?

added - if we inflated the balloon inside a box we can clearly see the space that was in the box is now inside the balloon.

« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 18:44:51 by chris »

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #1 on: 16/03/2016 23:47:10 »

How does the exterior space get inside the balloon increasing the interior volume?

Quote
by blowing air from our lungs into the deflated balloon to inflate it, expanding the balloon.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #2 on: 16/03/2016 23:53:51 »

How does the exterior space get inside the balloon increasing the interior volume?

Quote
by blowing air from our lungs into the deflated balloon to inflate it, expanding the balloon.

It can't be Alan , air fills space , we do not exhale space, Please try again, the interior space has expanded, the once exterior space is now interior space.

« Last Edit: 16/03/2016 23:59:42 by Thebox »

#### chiralSPO

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #3 on: 17/03/2016 00:01:56 »
If we are really discussing space, and not air, then it seems clear to me that space can "move" through the balloon. We would typically refer to the balloon as moving through space, but if you want to define it the other way, I don't see any harm unless it leads to discussion of space as a substance...

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #4 on: 17/03/2016 00:06:58 »
If we are really discussing space, and not air, then it seems clear to me that space can "move" through the balloon. We would typically refer to the balloon as moving through space, but if you want to define it the other way, I don't see any harm unless it leads to discussion of space as a substance...

That is what I thought, the balloons ''skin'' moves through space and space moves through the balloons ''skin''.

Is all matter ''transparent'' to space and allows space to pass through it and vice versus things pass through space without affect on the space?

#### Jolly

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #5 on: 17/03/2016 00:09:00 »

So here is my problem, How does the exterior space get inside the balloon increasing the interior volume?

I think I get your point, the exterior space isnt actually a substance, it's air. If the balloon inflates inside the box it might stop the air at the top of the box escaping out of the box so the balloon wont be able to fill the whole internal space of the box, because the air present will prevent it. If there were a few small holes in the box the balloon would fill the whole box and push out all the air.

Although maybe that's not your question, you might need to be clearer on what you are asking. The air comming into the balloon increases the volume of the balloon, and as the balloon volume increases it pushes the air arround it away.

I have a feeling you are thinking a space is fixed but actually it isnt its just filled with atoms that move.

So "How does the exterior space get inside the balloon increasing the interior volume?" It doesnt, its gas atoms not space that make this happen. exterior space doesnt get inside the balloon.  or does it? interesting...

It's a dimenional space question ummm
« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 00:13:15 by Jolly »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #6 on: 17/03/2016 00:14:03 »

So here is my problem, How does the exterior space get inside the balloon increasing the interior volume?

I think I get your point, the exterior space isnt actually a substance, it's air. If the balloon inflates inside the box it might stop the air at the top of the box escaping out of the box so the balloon wont be able to fill the whole internal space of the box, because the air present will prevent it. If there were a few small holes in the box the balloon would fill the whole box and push out all the air.

Although maybe that's not your question, you might need to be clearer on what you are asking. The air comming into the balloon increases the volume of the balloon, and as the balloon volume increases it pushes the air arround it away.

I have a feeling you are thinking a space is fixed but actually it isnt its just filled with atoms that move.

So "How does the exterior space get inside the balloon increasing the interior volume?" It doesnt, its gas atoms not space that make this happen. exterior space doesnt get inside the balloon.  or does it interesting

Consider the box is open so all the air is pushed out of the box, but either way even in a vacuum the space remains without air to end up inside the balloon,  Or does it , exactly, it boggled me all day .

#### Jolly

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #7 on: 17/03/2016 00:22:35 »
I mean demenional space would have to be fixed in some way.

If you mapped a room and had x y z axis then every point in that room has an axis postion

So position y2 x2 z2 would be out side the balloon before infaltion and inside after infaltion. it was outside now its inside

But that is on a map and I have made that map.

It doesnt speak to if space itself is a fix thing or point or if space itself can move, if a ballooon could move it if it did move.

I mean it would have to exist in some kind of demension differently if it doesnt move, and act like air if it did- I assume.

What is the nature of space?
« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 00:28:04 by Jolly »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #8 on: 17/03/2016 00:30:43 »
I mean demenional space would have to be fixed in some way.

If you mapped a room and had x y z axis then every point in that room has an axis postion

So position y2 x2 z2 would be out side the balloon before infaltion and inside after infaltion. it was outside now its inside

But that is on a map and I have made that map.

It doesnt speak to if space itself is a fix thing or point or if space itself can move, if a ballooon could move it if it did move.

I mean it would have to exist in some kind of demension differently if it doesnt move, and act like air if it did- I assume.

That is my point, the fixed points on a grid of the exterior B-space end up geometrically positioned in A-space, the interior, when the ''skin'' on the balloon moves in expansion.

Here is a diagram I did earlier.

I am trying not make it a new theory or my question will be booted to the lower leagues.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #9 on: 17/03/2016 00:40:57 »
And yes , if space was not fixed and passive , then space would have to behave like air and the balloons ''skin'' moves space, But , to create a greater volume of atoms (air) insider the interior A-space, a greater volume needs a greater space to exist in. So on that thought, space must some how pass the balloons skin and vice versus?

#### Jolly

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #10 on: 17/03/2016 00:49:41 »
I mean demenional space would have to be fixed in some way.

If you mapped a room and had x y z axis then every point in that room has an axis postion

So position y2 x2 z2 would be out side the balloon before infaltion and inside after infaltion. it was outside now its inside

But that is on a map and I have made that map.

It doesnt speak to if space itself is a fix thing or point or if space itself can move, if a ballooon could move it if it did move.

I mean it would have to exist in some kind of demension differently if it doesnt move, and act like air if it did- I assume.

That is my point, the fixed points on a grid of the exterior B-space end up geometrically positioned in A-space, the interior, when the ''skin'' on the balloon moves in expansion.

Here is a diagram I did earlier.

I am trying not make it a new theory or my question will be booted to the lower leagues.

Well Space can move, gravity will bend it, but would a balloon?

two choices the balloon interferes with space or the balloon doesn't. if the balloon doesnt then the atoms of the skin just allow space to flow through them.

If the balloon does inter-act with space then, space shrinks outside and expands inside? Although that doesnt make sense as there is an access point, so space inside would not expand, space would flow into the balloon. How could you test to see if space was entering or if space was simply expanding?

Or the space does something else.....
« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 00:52:42 by Jolly »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #11 on: 17/03/2016 01:05:39 »

. How could you test to see if space was entering or if space was simply expanding?

Or the space does something else.....

I did say it was a mind boggling thought, a bit of a Paradox question.

Does the surface of the balloon interact with space and push the space out of the way filling the balloon with only matter leaving no space or does the space allow the surface to expand through space without interacting with space as if space flowed through the surface?

The former would make no sense, even if the balloon is ''filled'' with air, the geometrical external positions of B-space end up in A-space.

I thank you for your replies and thought, I will sleep on it and work out an experiment for you while I am sleeping lol. (this is a tough one but I am sure it is achievable).

Good night.

added- I turned my computer off and got to the top of the stairs then it came to me how to test this with a simple experiment.

Create a vacuum with a pressure monitor on it. Inside the vacuum inflate a large inflatable that fills the vacuum, if space moves, it  should pressure and give a measurement on the dial or computer.  If the space passes through the skin, then no change.

goodnight again.

« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 01:14:16 by Thebox »

#### Jolly

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #12 on: 17/03/2016 01:11:05 »
And yes , if space was not fixed and passive , then space would have to behave like air and the balloons ''skin'' moves space, But , to create a greater volume of atoms (air) insider the interior A-space, a greater volume needs a greater space to exist in. So on that thought, space must some how pass the balloons skin and vice versus?

http://users.wfu.edu/brehme/space.htm

Quote
The dimensionality of the space is the number n, where n+1 is the maximum number of points which may be mutually equidistant. For example, in the trivial case of a one-dimensional space, only two points can be mutually equidistant. For a two-dimensional space, no more than three points can be mutually equidistant. (These points lie at the vertices of an equilateral triangle. A fourth point cannot be located in the two-dimensional space so that all four points are separated by the same distance.) For a three-dimensional space, no more than four points can be mutually equidistant. (These points lie at the vertices of a regular tetrahedron.)

Physical space is three-dimensional. Why space is so limited we do not know. This property does not seem to derive from any other character of space or from other laws of physics.

Gonna take issue with three demensional space surely it's six around a central axis point with 8 sectional areas.
« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 01:39:30 by Jolly »

#### Jolly

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #13 on: 17/03/2016 01:15:04 »

. How could you test to see if space was entering or if space was simply expanding?

Or the space does something else.....

I did say it was a mind boggling thought, a bit of a Paradox question.

Does the surface of the balloon interact with space and push the space out of the way filling the balloon with only matter leaving no space

Well that was why I was suggesting that the small space inside the balloon before inflation could expand.

or does the space allow the surface to expand through space without interacting with space as if space flowed through the surface?

Without knowing the nature of space you can only guess.

The former would make no sense, even if the balloon is ''filled'' with air, the geometrical external positions of B-space end up in A-space.

But might make sense if space could expand.

I thank you for your replies and thought, I will sleep on it and work out an experiment for you while I am sleeping lol. (this is a tough one but I am sure it is achievable).

Good night.

Yeah good night

Oh and im not sure about the experiment I mean atoms have some form of space arround them so you cant really introduce atoms without introducing some amount of space at the same time. Maybe there a mini expansion, where the expansion or streaching maybe better said makes up the spacial difference inside the balloon.
« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 01:41:57 by Jolly »

#### Aemilius

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #14 on: 17/03/2016 08:50:22 »
....if we inflated the balloon inside a box we can clearly see the space that was in the box is now inside the balloon.

Hah! Is this thread meant to be humorous? I hope so. I mean, even if one were to see space as a substance, given that the atoms making up the balloon are about 99.999% empty space, it's a bit like asking how water gets through a fish net.... And you actually thought about this all day

I'm afraid you're thinking way too far outside Thebox!
« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 10:26:44 by Aemilius »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #15 on: 17/03/2016 11:14:34 »

Hah! Is this thread meant to be humorous? I hope so. I mean, even if one were to see space as a substance, given that the atoms making up the balloon are about 99.999% empty space, it's a bit like asking how water gets through a fish net.... And you actually thought about this all day

I'm afraid you're thinking way too far outside Thebox!

Water and a net is not a comparison, a balloon can be filled with water and will not the water escape by passing through the balloons skin.
This thread is in good humour as all my threads, I am not a miserable person.

However the question and thought is very significant and has several possibilities to the answer, so by trial and elimination we should be able to draw a logical concrete conclusion.

'' even if one were to see space as a substance, ''

Maybe , maybe not,  static space or dynamic space, substance or no substance, I beleive my experiment would give the answer.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #16 on: 17/03/2016 11:20:46 »
By atoms , I mean simply exhaling ''air'' in to the balloon. If we was to create a vacuum and place in it an inflatable something, the air inside the inflatable will not effect the entropy of the vacuum  space between the inflatable and the walls of the vacuum (meaning the vacuum has no air), so if any sensors measure any change in  ''entropy'' of the vacuum that would mean the inflatable when inflating was doing something to space movement wise, if there is no change in the ''entropy'' of the vacuum then space must be passing through the ''skin'' , as if the ''skin'' was a ''fishing net''.

#### puppypower

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #17 on: 17/03/2016 11:49:42 »
Space is part of a mathematical abstraction. This is manmade and does not exist in nature. This abstraction is the hidden wire for this levitation magic trick. The question defines the inside and outside of the balloon relative to an imaginary mathematical grid that we superimpose onto reality. For the balloon, the rubber barrier between inside and outside the balloon defines the inside and outside of the balloon. This is tangible barrier and not just in the imagination. It should carry more weight, but may not to some due to social convention and peer pressure; emperors new clothes.

We can do this with time, which is also represented with a grid; calendar. For example, say we slowly blew up the balloon from 11PM Tuesday to 1 Am Thursday. One may ask, if the balloon has air from three different days, what day is it inside the balloon? The hidden wires for the trick are provided for by the calendar. Conformity to the social convention will make some people try to average the air relative to this time grid. But the real answer is, today since what happened yesterday is irrelevant.

A modification of the trick is say the balloon is fixed in size so its cannot expand. It is a hardened steel shell. We add heavier and heavier mass to the inside of the balloon, which increases the internal mass density and pressure. Based on General relativity, space-time will contract, due to the higher mass density. This means that the balloon will appear to collapse even though the pressure inside the balloon is increasing; paradox? Again, this is relative to the reference we use. If we use the balloon reference, apart from the gird, we may not notice anything in terms of a collapse under pressure.

The value of relative reference is we can pick the reference we need for the affect, thereby creating magic tricks based on social convention.
« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 11:56:50 by puppypower »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #18 on: 17/03/2016 12:02:28 »
Space is part of a mathematical abstraction. This is manmade and does not exist in nature. This abstraction is the hidden wire for this levitation magic trick. The question defines the inside and outside of the balloon relative to an imaginary mathematical grid that we superimpose onto reality. For the balloon, the rubber barrier between inside and outside the balloon defines the inside and outside of the balloon. This is tangible barrier and not just in the imagination. It should carry more weight, but may not to some due to social convention and peer pressure; emperors new clothes.

The geometrical  grid exists without a mathematical grid,  the maths is simply navigation.   Indeed the ''skin'' of the balloon exists in a concrete existence and not just of the imagination, like I do not imagine a balloon in a box takes up all the space, the space either moves out of the way or ends up inside the balloon.

Of course I have lots of theory to go with this , but I am keeping it to the question. I could relate time to this, in such that the time in A-space is an equal rate to the time in B-space relative to frame, but lets stay focused on the problem at hand for once.

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #19 on: 17/03/2016 12:05:07 »
Create a vacuum with a pressure monitor on it. Inside the vacuum inflate a large inflatable that fills the vacuum, if space moves, it  should pressure and give a measurement on the dial or computer.  If the space passes through the skin, then no change.
The pressure monitor only measures the pressure due to changes in the density of atoms eg air within the space. If you want to measure space you need a different system.

PS you probably need a thread in new theories to discuss A space and B space, but not here.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #20 on: 17/03/2016 12:16:05 »

PS you probably need a thread in new theories to discuss A space and B space, but not here.

Huh?   A-space is what we are calling the interior of the balloon, and B-space is what we are calling the exterior open space as mentioned in the opening posts, that is not in anyway a new theory matey, please do not get carried away and considering I mean anything other than this real balloon, ( I am not referring to the universal expansion in this section or anything else your minds are taking you there :)

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #21 on: 17/03/2016 12:20:47 »
Glad to hear it. Always hard to tell with you whether you are just redefining words or misunderstanding science ;-))

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#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #22 on: 17/03/2016 12:25:12 »

http://users.wfu.edu/brehme/space.htm

Physical space is three-dimensional. Why space is so limited we do not know. This property does not seem to derive from any other character of space or from other laws of physics.

Gonna take issue with three demensional space surely it's six around a central axis point with 8 sectional areas.
[/quote]

Thank you for the interesting link which I have bookmarked.

It sits around a central axis point and has a visual length relevant to the inverse square Law.   r = the length between central body and the last observed body.

But let us stay on track and focused on the  balloon, you h ave already seen the mods reactions if we even remotely go off track.

I think we are in agreement that either the balloons '''skin'' displaces space or space passes through the balloons ''skin'' unaltered, making space either dynamic or stationary.

Let us consider an air tight box with air in it that was not pressurised, if we inflated a balloon in this box the air would pressure against the sides of the box, now to  me this says the air not has less space and becomes compressed, so to me this is telling us that the space is indeed passed to from B-space to A-space?

« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 12:30:16 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #23 on: 17/03/2016 12:34:03 »

The pressure monitor only measures the pressure due to changes in the density of atoms eg air within the space. If you want to measure space you need a different system.

A pressure sensor is not really the thing we need, surely there will be some sort of change in the vacuum if we was to add a volume (the inflatable) to the vacuum.

If we imagine that Pr=0 (pressure)  when the inflatable is deflated in the vacuum, then surely something alters in/of the vacuum if we inflate the inflatable?

To simplify -

In B-space we plot several points around the A-space.

We now inflate the balloon, the balloons ''skin'' expands and moves outwards, the plotted points in B-space now end up inside the balloon becoming A-space.

Option 1 - The B-space is pushed by the balloons surface curving the geometrical points in B-space.

Option 2 - B-space passes through the surface of the balloon, and the geometrical points remain in position.

« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 12:50:19 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #24 on: 17/03/2016 14:13:46 »
... surely there will be some sort of change in the vacuum if we was to add a volume (the inflatable) to the vacuum.
Not that I'm aware of.

If we imagine that Pr=0 (pressure)  when the inflatable is deflated in the vacuum, then surely something alters in/of the vacuum if we inflate the inflatable?
As I said, pressure is due to atoms eg air. If you have a vacuum there is no air.
If the pressure is 0 before the inflation, it will be 0 afterwards. That's the nature of a vacuum.
If you measure a pressure change it would just mean the vacuum wasn't perfect.

If you want to measure space you need to find something it interacts with so you can measure the change.

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #24 on: 17/03/2016 14:13:46 »