# The Naked Scientists Forum

### Author Topic: What happens when a balloon inflates?  (Read 5697 times)

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #25 on: 17/03/2016 15:25:45 »
... surely there will be some sort of change in the vacuum if we was to add a volume (the inflatable) to the vacuum.
Not that I'm aware of.

As I said, pressure is due to atoms eg air. If you have a vacuum there is no air.
If the pressure is 0 before the inflation, it will be 0 afterwards. That's the nature of a vacuum.
If you measure a pressure change it would just mean the vacuum wasn't perfect.

If you want to measure space you need to find something it interacts with so you can measure the change.

I was hoping space interacts with space and will show a change in entropy in the vacuum some how, I know there is no air in a vacuum it is just space, the inflatable would be an isolated atmosphere expanding into an isolated vacuum space, so if space in the vacuum is in no way affected , and if  the inflatable expanded filling the whole of the vacuum, we could only conclude that space must have past through the ''skin''?

What about the invert pressure of a vacuum?   e.g a plastic bottle collapses.

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #26 on: 17/03/2016 18:02:24 »

we could only conclude that space must have past through the ''skin''?
No, there are 2 options because the skin could pass through space. It might seem a subtle difference but if you think space passes through the skin you might assume space can move and there is no evidence for that (yet).

What about the invert pressure of a vacuum?   e.g a plastic bottle collapses.
That is not the vacuum causing invert pressure, but the air outside causing a positive pressure on the surface of the bottle. Because there is no air in the bottle to provide an opposing pressure (as per Newton - equal and opposite forces) the bottle collapses under the outside pressure.

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #27 on: 17/03/2016 18:47:26 »
Mr Box's problem arises from using "space" to  mean (at least) two different things. The abstract mathematical meaning is any volume whose elements can be described by orthogonal vectors. The physical meaning is a real volume containing nothing.

All that happens when you inflate a balloon is that you transfer air (not physical space)  from outside to inside the balloon. It therefore occupies more mathematical space.

#### alancalverd

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##### Re: What happens when a balloon inflates?
« Reply #28 on: 17/03/2016 18:47:56 »
What about the invert pressure of a vacuum?
No such thing.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #29 on: 17/03/2016 19:49:59 »

That is not the vacuum causing invert pressure, but the air outside causing a positive pressure on the surface of the bottle. Because there is no air in the bottle to provide an opposing pressure (as per Newton - equal and opposite forces) the bottle collapses under the outside pressure.

Exactly , if you filled a plastic bottle with air when up a really  high mountain and brought it back down to sea level altitude the space contracts and becomes less volume in the interior of the bottle to create an equal pressure to the outer.   So in a reverse of the balloon, how does the space get outside the bottle?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #30 on: 17/03/2016 19:59:22 »

All that happens when you inflate a balloon is that you transfer air (not physical space)  from outside to inside the balloon.

Not quite Alan, for a greater volume of air is needed a greater volume of space to contain that air, that is why the balloon expands to create more space for the greater volume of air.   You seem to be forgetting and not accounting for the points we marked in B-space that ends up in A-space when the balloon is expanded, also you seem to be totally ignoring a balloon inflated inside of a box.

Ok , try to look at this way , imagine the balloon in a air tight box that contained air, as the balloon inflates with air,  the air in the box space becomes pressured between the walls of the box and the ''skin'' of the balloon, the air in the B-space contracts, so what do you presume happens to the space in the B-space?

« Last Edit: 17/03/2016 20:03:39 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #31 on: 17/03/2016 20:10:21 »

No, there are 2 options because the skin could pass through space. It might seem a subtle difference but if you think space passes through the skin you might assume space can move and there is no evidence for that (yet).
re.

I assume when the balloon skin moves , it allows space to pass through it, not space is moving.  But I also consider the balloon skin could be pushing space and creating a space within a space and space can contort.

That is the two options I get, please see the example I gave Alan about an air filled box and pressure.

#### chiralSPO

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##### Re: What happens when a balloon inflates?
« Reply #32 on: 17/03/2016 22:11:47 »
Let's imagine a person walking down a street between two buildings.

building           distance 1     person     distance 2          building
Π-------------------d1-----------Ψ------------d2--------------Π

building              distance 1           person     distance 2 building
Π----------------------d1----------------Ψ----------d2--------Π

Distance 1 is now larger and distance 2 is smaller. Did distance move through the person?

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #33 on: 17/03/2016 22:30:26 »
, if you filled a plastic bottle with air when up a really  high mountain and brought it back down to sea level altitude the space contracts and becomes less volume in the interior of the bottle to create an equal pressure to the outer.
The space does not contract, it is the air pressure which tries to equalise and hence contracts under the higher pressure outside.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #34 on: 18/03/2016 00:18:36 »
, if you filled a plastic bottle with air when up a really  high mountain and brought it back down to sea level altitude the space contracts and becomes less volume in the interior of the bottle to create an equal pressure to the outer.
The space does not contract, it is the air pressure which tries to equalise and hence contracts under the higher pressure outside.

Contracting the structural integrity of the plastic bottle creating less space and less volume inside the interior space. The air pressure inside the interior can not contract and pressure without there being less space.

If there is less volume of space inside the bottle when the bottle contracts, then how as space not contracted?

I may not be a scientist but it does not take a wizard to know when something has less space than it use to have.

'added - When the bottle returns to sea level , the outer air has more weight than the weight of the interior air, because of this the gravity of the exterior weight crushes the bottle creating less space inside the bottle to create more weight inside the bottle related to density function to create an equal and opposing force of positive charge that stops a total collapse of the bottle.  The denser an object, the more compressed the positive energy '  disclaimer (my opinion)

« Last Edit: 18/03/2016 00:59:39 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What happens when a balloon inflates?
« Reply #35 on: 18/03/2016 00:27:03 »
Let's imagine a person walking down a street between two buildings.

building           distance 1     person     distance 2          building
Π-------------------d1-----------Ψ------------d2--------------Π

building              distance 1           person     distance 2 building
Π----------------------d1----------------Ψ----------d2--------Π

Distance 1 is now larger and distance 2 is smaller. Did distance move through the person?

'Well firstly the length is an invariant between the two buildings, the variance of the length is relative to the person in motion, as the observer moves towards the other building the length decreases and at the same time the length behind the person increases',

I think you scenario leaves the same problem, does the person push the distance or does the person allow the distance to ''pass through'' as they move through, (relative to the person it is the distance that is moving and they are standing still, relative to the distance it is the person that is moving and ''they'' are standing still).

I don't know the answer I can't draw a conclusion.

« Last Edit: 18/03/2016 00:40:41 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #36 on: 18/03/2016 08:35:06 »
The air pressure inside the interior can not contract and pressure without there being less space.
That there is less 'space' or volume is not in dispute. What I am saying is that 'less space' is not the cause of the bottle collapsing, it is the air molecules moving closer together as the outside pressure pushes the bottle walls together. Less space inside the bottle is an effect or result, not a cause.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #37 on: 18/03/2016 08:55:30 »
Less space inside the bottle is an effect or result, not a cause.

Well that is quite obvious Colin but regardless we still have less space inside the bottle,

so does the space escape the bottle?

or does the space become more ''dense''?

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #38 on: 18/03/2016 14:16:38 »
so does the space escape the bottle?

or does the space become more ''dense''?
No and no.

The bottle does not contain a substance called space. Space is a general term like distance, you can't say distance is a thing and space is just any area measured by 3 distances

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #39 on: 18/03/2016 20:08:22 »

No and no.

The bottle does not contain a substance called space. Space is a general term like distance, you can't say distance is a thing and space is just any area measured by 3 distances

You are quite clearly being intentionally patronizing, you know very well what space is.

''space
speɪs/Submit
noun
1.
a continuous area or expanse which is free, available, or unoccupied.
"a table took up much of the space"
synonyms:   room, expanse, extent, capacity, area, volume, spaciousness, scope, latitude, expansion, margin, leeway, play, clearance; More
2.
the dimensions of height, depth, and width within which all things exist and move.''

''Merrian webster.

Full Definition of space
1
:  a period of time; also :  its duration
2
a :  a limited extent in one, two, or three dimensions :  distance, area, volume
b :  an extent set apart or available <parking space> <floor space>
c :  the distance from other people or things that a person needs in order to remain comfortable <invading my personal space>''

Quote
The bottle does not contain a substance called space

Not once do I suggest a substance, those are your words not mine.

The crushed bottle has less space that pressures the air, some of the space the bottle originally had is now missing, so where does it go?

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What happens when a balloon inflates?
« Reply #40 on: 18/03/2016 20:53:58 »
Quote from: TheBox
added sorry - ask yourself this - We have a box that is full of tightly packed dice, we can clearly observe that there is no space in the box.

When we remove a single ''dice'' , does space fill where there was no space or was the space already there to begin with?

The space must already be there, or the dice would not be able to occupy it.

Ok, so when we place the dice back in the space, it is apparent that there is now no space in the once ''empty'' slot.  So either the space moves out of the way along with the air or the air moves out of the way leaving the space that is ''transparent'' to the dice?

Is this the missing answer, is space fixed and ''transparent'' to everything , including sight, gravity, matter,space-time etc?

« Last Edit: 18/03/2016 21:02:39 by Thebox »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What happens when a balloon inflates?
« Reply #41 on: 18/03/2016 21:07:33 »
What about the invert pressure of a vacuum?
No such thing.

Something as been niggling me about this Alan, gravity is an invert pressure, when a gas contracts it is an invert of the gas expanding.

When you suck the air out of a plastic bottle you are creating an internal invert force, not an external force, so I think you could be slightly wrong there Alan about an invert pressure.

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #42 on: 18/03/2016 23:28:51 »

Not once do I suggest a substance, those are your words not mine.

No, your words.
Look at the definitions. As soon as you suggest there is something to pressure the air you are giving it the properties of a substance.

It is the difference in air pressure which is doing the work, the space hasn't gone anywhere, it is nothing.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What magic is involved in this?
« Reply #43 on: 19/03/2016 10:25:41 »

No, your words.
Look at the definitions. As soon as you suggest there is something to pressure the air you are giving it the properties of a substance.

It is the difference in air pressure which is doing the work, the space hasn't gone anywhere, it is nothing.

NO, you words not mine, the substance that pressurises the air is the plastic bottle, I do not mention space crushing air.   You say the space has not gone anywhere, yet there is less space inside the bottle after it has been crushed by the external weight.   You are not adding more air to the bottle to the pressure the air, we have less space in the bottle that compacts the air to pressure.
Space is nothing you say, before the big bang existed nothing, are you saying space is eternal and always was and always will be?
Are you saying space does not curve because it is made of nothing?
Are you saying that space K=0?
Because you have just certainly implied it by saying space is nothing.
It is quite clear we do not know the answer of why the geometrical points of internal space or external space ends up inside or outside the balloon or bottle,  we have no idea what ''nothing'' is made of if anything .

Space has to be a negative right?

Space has to be cold right?

« Last Edit: 19/03/2016 10:27:52 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What happens when a balloon inflates?
« Reply #44 on: 20/03/2016 10:21:11 »
Space has to be a negative right?
No, space is not a negative.

No matter how you try to argue it, it is the relative air pressures that cause the bottle to collapse, not a change in space.

Another way of looking at ChiralSPO's post:
Let's say a car is 10 miles away, it travels towards you and stops 2 miles away. You don't ask what happened to the 6 miles, but clearly the car has moved in space.
Similarly with the bottle, the distance between the walls has changed, but we don't ask what happened to the distance. Space is only 3 distances.

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What happens when a balloon inflates?
« Reply #45 on: 20/03/2016 13:44:53 »

No, space is not a negative.

So it is positive?

Quote
No matter how you try to argue it, it is the relative air pressures that cause the bottle to collapse, not a change in space.

I have not said a change in space causes the bottle to collapse, why do you keep thinking that?  patronising me, I am not stupid, you are reading wrong because of the ambiguity of the word space.

It is the relative air pressures that causes the bottle to collapse, not a change in space, however regardless how how much you try to argue this, you can not deny there is less space in the bottle when it contracts. If the bottle did not contract by the relative interior and exterior pressure, there would not be less space/volume and the interior air would not pressure.

Never mind being complacent just because you don't know where the space goes, or how the space ''passes'' through the bottle, I still want my answer please which as not been answered.

It is provable that in a box that is relative full of cubes, there is no relative space, it is also provable that if we remove a block we create a space that air and light fills.

So either the space is static and fixed, and all things are transparent to space, or space moves at an equal rate to movement of the mass to fill the ''gap''?

There is a slight pressure in space that suggests space is made of something?  what of space where there is no air is creating a pressure?

My definition of space is - Space - space is the volume of ''seemingly empty'' distance that surrounds an observer?

« Last Edit: 20/03/2016 13:59:06 by Thebox »

#### Colin2B

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##### Re: What happens when a balloon inflates?
« Reply #46 on: 20/03/2016 14:50:43 »

No, space is not a negative.

So it is positive?
No, there is nothing to hold a positive charge.

There is a slight pressure in space that suggests space is made of something?
No, space is not made of something, the slight pressure is due to gasses mainly hydrogen atoms.

Anyway, you are starting to throw insults, so I'm dropping out.

« Last Edit: 20/03/2016 15:05:51 by Colin2B »

#### Thebox

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##### Re: What happens when a balloon inflates?
« Reply #47 on: 20/03/2016 22:52:34 »

No, there is nothing to hold a positive charge.

So then it must be an electro negativity?

Quote
Anyway, you are starting to throw insults, so I'm dropping out.

Huh?  I have not been insulting anywhere....what do you see as an insult Colin?

#### The Naked Scientists Forum

##### Re: What happens when a balloon inflates?
« Reply #47 on: 20/03/2016 22:52:34 »

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