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Author Topic: What is God?  (Read 1507 times)

Offline Robertt

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What is God?
« on: 11/04/2016 05:49:59 »
Hi, would like a scientific/philosophical argument on a discussion I am having. Any help greatly appreciated. Cheers :)
______________________________________________

Quote
That's great you've managed to created more gaps for God to fill. The truth is that I'm not one the spoon fed by religion, I asked questions which makes more sense when intelligence is applied to bridge gaps than to assume the universe is based on chaos and disorder. God exists before time and makes His preexistence illogical for He's the source of all energy, time,space and matter. Tell me, are your thoughts products of randomness or consciousness? this consciousness is it a product of disorder? Because religion cannot base its argument on physical evidence doesn't make its claims invalid otherwise rather it superimposes science in its entirety. The problem is that nowadays people misuse religion for their selfish requests and make God distant them the non religious POV becomes warped about the truth throwing the baby out with the bath water, discrediting every ties to the Creator. We all know this but some people just choose apply the same principles of man to God. They think God is a finite entity that dwells in the Sky, that's limited because unfavourable things happen and fail to see they are part of a grand design.
All scientific facts still change to meet up with God's word. Today, the prophecies of the Bible are unravelling : internet, cashless transactions, space exploration, cloning and Modern Warfare are all documented. If we disregard the Bible as the truth because of the God you despise, then only those who pay attention will tap into the knowledge and be able to preemptively avert dangers by calling unto the Savior

Have ever wonder why there are miracles and faith healing that defy medical reports and diagnosis?
Have you asked what happens to consciousness when the body dies? The universe is vast and unexplored dimensions are merely touched and observed and man on his little blue rock doubt the existence of a Supreme Being ,the creator of the universe? Definitely science is taking the common sense out of people and philosophy is doing more harm of twisting faith with facts

One more thing, God is not "god of the gaps" as He's the source of all creation

“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” —C.S. Lewis
______________________________________

That is what he said.. I have come across a site that completely obliterates this quote on a reddit forum:
C.S. Lewis' Argument Against Atheism is a Joke and Here's Why

My overall view on the topic is this, which is a point within itself:

It seems like he's not advancing his own position by trying to trash another. It's called the argument from ignorance. He's setting up a false dichotomy where either the current scientific theory explains everything, or else "whatever his explanation is" wins by default. Not the case at all. If he did manage to debunk current theory (not likely) then we would simply have no good explanation. We would then investigate to find a new one. We wouldn't fill the gap of knowledge with magical fairy tales. He's really just displaying his ignorance.

But saying that I would want to try and counter the argument with what was said above and more, be it actually answering the questions or something else that science has taught us.

But the rest of it I would appreciate any assistance. I am doing this more for myself than debating but would like to do both.
Thanks :)
« Last Edit: 11/04/2016 08:59:04 by chris »


 

Offline Thebox

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Hi, would like a scientific/philosophical argument on a discussion I am having. Any help greatly appreciated. Cheers :)
______________________________________________

Quote
That's great you've managed to created more gaps for God to fill. The truth is that I'm not one the spoon fed by religion, I asked questions which makes more sense when intelligence is applied to bridge gaps than to assume the universe is based on chaos and disorder. God exists before time and makes His preexistence illogical for He's the source of all energy, time,space and matter. Tell me, are your thoughts products of randomness or consciousness? this consciousness is it a product of disorder? Because religion cannot base its argument on physical evidence doesn't make its claims invalid otherwise rather it superimposes science in its entirety. The problem is that nowadays people misuse religion for their selfish requests and make God distant them the non religious POV becomes warped about the truth throwing the baby out with the bath water, discrediting every ties to the Creator. We all know this but some people just choose apply the same principles of man to God. They think God is a finite entity that dwells in the Sky, that's limited because unfavourable things happen and fail to see they are part of a grand design.
All scientific facts still change to meet up with God's word. Today, the prophecies of the Bible are unravelling : internet, cashless transactions, space exploration, cloning and Modern Warfare are all documented. If we disregard the Bible as the truth because of the God you despise, then only those who pay attention will tap into the knowledge and be able to preemptively avert dangers by calling unto the Savior

Have ever wonder why there are miracles and faith healing that defy medical reports and diagnosis?
Have you asked what happens to consciousness when the body dies? The universe is vast and unexplored dimensions are merely touched and observed and man on his little blue rock doubt the existence of a Supreme Being ,the creator of the universe? Definitely science is taking the common sense out of people and philosophy is doing more harm of twisting faith with facts

One more thing, God is not "god of the gaps" as He's the source of all creation

“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It’s like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can’t trust my own thinking, of course I can’t trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.” —C.S. Lewis
______________________________________

That is what he said.. I have come across a site that completely obliterates this quote on a reddit forum:
C.S. Lewis' Argument Against Atheism is a Joke and Here's Why

My overall view on the topic is this, which is a point within itself:

It seems like he's not advancing his own position by trying to trash another. It's called the argument from ignorance. He's setting up a false dichotomy where either the current scientific theory explains everything, or else "whatever his explanation is" wins by default. Not the case at all. If he did manage to debunk current theory (not likely) then we would simply have no good explanation. We would then investigate to find a new one. We wouldn't fill the gap of knowledge with magical fairy tales. He's really just displaying his ignorance.

But saying that I would want to try and counter the argument with what was said above and more, be it actually answering the questions or something else that science has taught us.

But the rest of it I would appreciate any assistance. I am doing this more for myself than debating but would like to do both.
Thanks :)



Which site is this person on? I will happily go hit them with some science and destroy his illusion.  It is very simple, he states God is a he, ask him the question what is God? 


He classifies God as a person by saying he, God is created from the mind because of the once firmament, point this out to them.

 

Offline alancalverd

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Here's the "O" level question.

1. Define "god"

2. If your god was the creator ef everything, what created your god?

3. What functions and properties does your god have that persist beyond the act of creation?

Use your definitions and a logical argument to explain and justify congenital syphilis, tsunami, human sacrifice, jihad, and the Inquisition. 

Hints: Beware of allegations of omnipotence or benign intent. You may compare "just and merciful" with "jealous and vengeful".

 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #3 on: 11/04/2016 10:26:48 »
Robert, I think you are on a hiding for nothing.
Not only are you very unlikely to convince your target audience, but all the definitions I've seen of God place him outside of scientific investigation.
Science can only deal with what can be observed, measured, tested, experimented on.

 

Offline puppypower

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #4 on: 11/04/2016 12:50:02 »
One way to address God is to first consider the concept of space-time. At the speed of light, the fabric analogy of space-time will unravel into separated threads of space and time; see below.  When space-time unravels it is no longer integrated space and time.  Rather space threads will exist without time constraint, and time threads will exist without space constraint. Below shows fabric coming undone.



If we move along a space thread, without any integrated constraint of time, we can be in all places at the same time. This is called omnipresence. This is possible since the universe, at the speed of light, appears contracted to a point, allowing us to be everywhere in the inertial universe, by standing on the point.

If we follow a time line; thread, that is not constrained by space, we can know the history of the entire universe at any point along the time line. This is called omniscience. Omnipresence and omniscience are two ancient characteristics of God. The characteristics of omniscience and omnipresence can be derived from the modern concepts of space-time, speed of light and special relativity. The ancients had an answer before the solution.

According to special relativity, mass cannot move at the speed of light, unless there is infinite energy. This means if you had been born in the speed off light reference, you would never know there was such a thing as mass, since mass cannot appear in your reference. The universe would appear as energy; light, but lack mass like substance; spiritual realm. Mass would only be a religious belief that lacks substance; hard to prove. Science, at the speed of light, would have doubts about mass and GR since it can't be seem. This is just like science in inertial reference has doubts about the properties of omni-presence and omniscience at C that are attributed to God.

Since it takes infinite energy for even the smallest amount of mass to move at the speed of light, the appearance of mass in a universe that begins at C; purely spiritual realm, would need to be an act of omnipotence. The ancients appeared to have sensed relativity, but had not yet put this into words. They appeared to have intersected the same time line as Einstein; omniscience.

If you look at the human imagination, it is not constrained, to space-time and the law of physics. I can fly to the moon by flapping my arms in my imagination. Therefore, although not real per se, the imagination allows us to generate omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotent content. I can squish the sun into a blackhole and then spray paint it white in my imagination.

If God is part of the imagination and the imagination can generate information content connected to omnipresence, omnipotent and omniscience, while lacking tangible attributes, the imagination may well be an interface to the C reference. 

 



« Last Edit: 11/04/2016 13:04:56 by puppypower »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Which site is this person on? I will happily go hit them with some science and destroy his illusion.
Unfortunately for the OP you're not the good at science. Sorry.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #6 on: 14/04/2016 05:57:01 »
Quote from: Robertt
Hi, would like a scientific/philosophical argument on a discussion I am having. Any help greatly appreciated. Cheers :)
I'll take a shot at it and do the best that I can.

Quote
That's great you've managed to created more gaps for God to fill.
Who is this speaking? Is this one entire quote someone you said this to you? If so then what did he mean when he or she said that you've managed to create more gaps for God to fill?

Quote
God exists before time and makes His preexistence illogical for He's the source of all energy, time,space and matter.
First of all saying that God existed before time is something that's logically impossible. Second, you can't know what the properties of God are unless you are taking something or some things as an axiom(s). If that's the case then there's nothing to discuss. Either you accept it or you reject it. Argument over. However if you simply assume or define God to be an intelligent being then there are several ways to go along that line. Either he's the God of the Bible or He/She's a being who created humans, or a being who created life on Earth, or who created life in the universe, or created the universe etc. There's a large variety of assumptions that one could start with. But there's no logical reason to assume that God is the source of all energy, space, time and matter unless to postulate it to be so. If that's the case then why argue about it. Where do these postulates come from would be my next question.


Quote
All scientific facts still change to meet up with God's word.
That's impossible. Scientific facts are simply that which is observed in nature, nothing more and nothing less.

Quote
Today, the prophecies of the Bible are unravelling
Nonsense. People have been saying that the Biblical prophecies have been coming true for centuries. Every generation someone comes along and matches biblical prophecies with natural disasters and claim that it's all coming true when in fact it is all simply someone's opinion, period.

I could go on but you get the drift.
 

Online jeffreyH

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #7 on: 14/04/2016 08:19:29 »
If god is everywhere then god results in infinity which is undefined. Therefore god is undefined. Also as any field approaches god its energy approaches zero. In which case god cannot interact with energy and is irrelevant.
 

Online evan_au

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #8 on: 14/04/2016 10:34:20 »
The Bible says that God created mankind in His image.

Sometimes I get the feeling that mankind wants to create God(s) in his own image.
 

Online syhprum

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #9 on: 14/04/2016 11:23:34 »
I always thought god created mankind as a growth medium for viruses that are his real interest
 

Offline puppypower

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #10 on: 14/04/2016 12:21:53 »
The Bible says that God created mankind in His image.

Sometimes I get the feeling that mankind wants to create God(s) in his own image.

Image of God is often misunderstood. Image is not analogous to a photographic image. Rather image is more like a disk image of a hard drive. A disk image will allow us to create the same operating system on another hard drive. This allows two PC's to start off exactly the same, with each customized by use. For example, in the disk image, humans have free will and are able to create and extrapolate creation. In tradition, God created the animals, while humans breed animals to make new breeds. In modern times, we are getting close to making animals from scratch using DNA. It is in our disk image.

Relative to an assembly line of PC's, each PC will the same disk image. As different people use their PC, some will maintain the same  operating systems and keep up with all the updates. Others will only use the PC to surf the web, in questionable places and get internet STD's. These virus can cause the operating system to become erratic until the original disk image no longer appears the same. It has been tainted. This may be why people assume photographic image, since internet VD, does not alter the case.

Philosophically, the concept of God implies an extrapolation of human traits; disk image, to the limit; infinity. For example, humans have knowledge, while God is all knowing. Humans can be strong, but is God omnipotent, etc.

In practical terms, children will naturally copy the behavior of their heroes, whether this is their mom/dad, Babe Ruth or Albert Einstein. When one copies the hero, they will work along a curve toward that limit. It is useful to have a hero, with God placed at the limit of all heroes. Even heroes like Hercules has his own hero; Zeus. Hercules was way along the curve but not at the limit.

If one is lazy, they will not seek to be very far down the hero curve, since the farther you reach the more work it takes. If lazy is good enough, it makes no sense to idolized Einstein. This particular hero requires you try to learn and study the difficult subject of physics. Lazy allows one to truncate the hero curve to a tiny segment, closer to oneself.

God tends to be more important to people who struggle, because they need strength and ability to survive and overcome. This is when the extrapolation to the limit makes the most sense. Even though you will fall short, one can still rise in the attempt.

If life is easy and one thinks they are god; ego-centric, there is not need to rise very far. They will choose heroes, who are more human and closer to themselves, so they can assume they are already near the limit. However, the disk image and operating system of the human brain has a lot of untapped potential, with the limit still eons away. The ego-centric may live in the now, while those who seek the limit of infinity, live in the future.

In Christian tradition, Jesus was considered perfect, which placed him at the limit of the morality curve. Humans will all fall short of this perfection. This means humans begin closer to the origin of that curve. The forgiveness of sins, down plays human imperfections. This is connected to the journey along the curve of perfection toward infinity.

The psychology behind this was, if you tried to work along the curve of perfection to the limit, since each step is new, one will make mistakes; leaning curve. The added mistakes means one will fall ever shorter of perfection. Many will do the math and think it is better to just stay put and deal with your limited imperfections. The forgiveness of sin, meant there will be no imperfection penalty, for making more mistakes and sins, as you move along the curve, toward the limit.

The righteous shall live by faith and not by the law. The prophet has to step outside their own time. This can be seen as blaspheme against the laws of the establishment. Faith and the forgiveness of sin means, you don't need to worry about those sins of learning, as long as you are moving upward. The future is not the same the present and different skill sill be needed.
« Last Edit: 14/04/2016 12:55:55 by puppypower »
 

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Re: What is God?
« Reply #10 on: 14/04/2016 12:21:53 »

 

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