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Author Topic: Is negative attracted to negative?  (Read 4398 times)

Offline Thebox

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Is negative attracted to negative?
« on: 19/04/2016 09:14:51 »
I really need to discuss this topic, please do not put it in the bin.   I ask the question is negative attracted to negative?


What do I mean by negative?  I am not sure, some sort of gravitational negative that attracts other gravitational negatives, maybe some sort of mono negative particle. I do not know in certainty.
 this negative gains Pe, (potential energy) it is then no longer a negative, almost at an instant after ''birth'' it becomes a charged particle maybe.

There is a certainty in my mind that the  negative of me is attracted to the negative of the floor, there is a certainty if I was to add lots of energy to my body I go up in smoke away from negative.

There is a certainty I can't climb up the walls like spider man, there is certainty that the positive of the walls repels the positive of my hands and I can not stick.


Please discuss negatives with me. Please name all the things we already know that are negative.








 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #1 on: 19/04/2016 10:44:49 »
I ask the question is negative attracted to negative?
By definition, no.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #2 on: 19/04/2016 11:29:00 »
Quote from: Thebox
I really need to discuss this topic, please do not put it in the bin.
Since you're asking a very valid question there'd be no valid reason to put it in the bin.

Quote from: Thebox
I ask the question is negative attracted to negative?
If you're talking about charge then negative charge repels negative charge. If you're talking about mass then, theoretically,  negative mass repels negative mass.

Regarding the concept of negative mass please see Negative Mass in General Relativity by H. Bondi, Rev. Mod. Phys. 29, 423 – Published 1 July 1957
http://journals.aps.org/rmp/abstract/10.1103/RevModPhys.29.423

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_mass



« Last Edit: 19/04/2016 11:48:59 by PmbPhy »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #3 on: 19/04/2016 12:06:24 »
I really need to discuss this topic, please do not put it in the bin.   
It will remain here unless you start to stray into new theories. Your opening post contains statements that many would consider new theories.

I think the problem is that you don't have a good understanding of what is positive or negative so you apply them at random to explain things you do not understand.
For example, the wall is not positive repelling the positive of your hands. These is no repulsive force, there just isn't an attractive force between your hands and the wall which is great enough to stick you against the wall, so gravity pulls you down.

Also there is no negative of you attracted to the negative of the floor. What you are describing is just the plain old attraction of masses - gravity.

It's when you go off on these wild speculations that everyone loses interest and stops discussing with you.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #4 on: 19/04/2016 15:30:37 »
Ok, I have read the link provided to Wiki , the other link would not give me access.  I have mentioned negative mass from my own thoughts, obviously I was meaning something different I think.


Ok let me presume I know nothing, please explain how any charge can be negative?  I don't understand.

 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #5 on: 19/04/2016 16:42:10 »
When you rub ebonite with cat fur, the plastic and the fur both become charged. Now do it with another piece of ebonite and another cat.  You will find that the ebonite rods repel each  other, as do the cats, but each ebonite rod will attract a cat.

The charge on the cat is called positive, and on the ebonite, negative. That is the official definition.

It turns out that electrons have negative charge, and protons are positive.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #6 on: 19/04/2016 16:53:05 »
Quote from: Thebox
Ok let me presume I know nothing, please explain how any charge can be negative?  I don't understand.
It's all very simple (Note:this is related to Newton's 3rd law).

Suppose have two particles which I'll label A and B. Perhaps they're both electrons, both protons or one electron and one proton. Coulomb's Law, derived from experimentation by Coulomb, shows that the force between any two of those particles is equal in magnitude but opposite in direction. The force on particle A due to particle B,


FAB = kqAqB nAB/r2

nAB is a unit vector that points from particle A to particle B = FAB/ |FAB|

Also

FBA = kqAqB nBA/r2

nBA is a unit vector that points from particle A to particle B = FBA/ |FBA|

In order for the directions of the forces to point in the correct direction the signs of the charge on the two particles has to be opposite. The sign convention which determined which charge was positive and which was negative was decided by Benjamin Franklin
http://www.austincc.edu/wkibbe/truth.htm
« Last Edit: 19/04/2016 17:34:01 by PmbPhy »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #7 on: 19/04/2016 16:56:14 »
Quote from: Thebox
Ok let me presume I know nothing, please explain how any charge can be negative?  I don't understand.
It boils down to this: The negative sign ends up determining the direction of the force exerted on the object which its interacting with. I'll explain in more detail later today.
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #8 on: 19/04/2016 17:31:27 »
Quote from: TheBox
there is certainty that the positive of the walls repels the positive of my hands and I can not stick.
I would seriously consider where you got these random certainties. Then return them and hope the vendor will give you a refund.

There is positive in the walls, and there is positive in your hands - it lies in the positive charge in the nucleus of the atoms.

But the positive in the walls do not "see" the positive in your hands, because both are screened from each other by the negative electrons which surround the atoms.

You could say that the "negative electrons of the walls repels the negative electrons of my hands and I can not stick".

Quote
There is a certainty in my mind that the  negative of me is attracted to the negative of the floor
On the contrary, it would be better to say  "the  negative electrons of me are repelled by the negative electrons of the floor". That is why gravity does not pull you through the floor, collapsing you and the Earth into a black hole.

Quote
Please discuss negatives with me. Please name all the things we already know that are negative.
A negative is something where, when you add an equal amount of positive, you end up with zero.

So if you have a $1,000,000 mortgage, and you add $1,000,000: you end up with zero. So a mortgage is negative money in your finances.

One of the terminals of a battery is marked negative; it has an excess of electrons. The other terminal is marked positive; it has an equal deficit of electrons. Add them together by connecting them with a wire, and you end up with zero charge.

About 1 in 10,000,000 water molecules spontaneously breaks into OH- and H+ ions. There are equal quantities of + and -, so the overall charge is zero.

Sometimes what is negative depends on your reference point, because measurement only makes sense with respect to a reference.
  • Sometimes the selection of a reference point can be somewhat arbitrary (eg Earth or Pluto).
  • You may be 1km North of the center of town. If you walk 1km south, your "Northerlyness" is zero; walking south is a negative distance.
  • A person standing on the Earth can be considered to have negative potential energy. By putting them in a rocket and applying energy, you can put them out of Earth orbit, giving them zero potential energy.
  • Almost anything countable can be considered to have a negative, by selecting your reference point appropriately.
Perhaps it would be instructive in your understanding of negatives for you to consider those cases where there is no known negative, like mass, kinetic energy or temperature in degrees Kelvin?
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #9 on: 19/04/2016 20:51:35 »
Quote from: Thebox
Please discuss negatives with me. Please name all the things we already know that are negative.
It wasn't clear to me what you were asking when you wrote this. Evan gave you the definition of what a negative number is. If you'd like more details then please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_number

However when you asked us to name "all" things that we know which are represented by negative numbers then you're asking way too much of us. I'll give you a short list to show you how numerous such a list would be.

1) Negative charge
2) Topographical features of the earth’s surface are given a height above sea level, which can be negative
3) Negative energy; negative potential energy, negative total energy, negative mass-energy
    Note: I recall that someone in this forum claimed that there is no such thing as negative energy. Was that you or was it Farsight?
4) Negative mass
5) Negative Gaussian curvature
6) Negative time reading (t = -5 s = the moment 3 seconds before a clock was set to read zero)
7) Negative values of a coordinate in a coordinate system
8) Negative temperature
9) Negative account balance
10) Negative latitude and longitude
11) Negative voltage
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #10 on: 19/04/2016 21:48:44 »

A negative is something where, when you add an equal amount of positive, you end up with zero.





Thank you all there is a lot to take in their, I will have to read it several times over before I can ask questions.   Just to confirm something related to the above statement .


If I start with       -14.6 billion years and add +14.6 billion years, I get 0?
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #11 on: 19/04/2016 21:55:30 »
Quote from: Thebox
Ok let me presume I know nothing, please explain how any charge can be negative?  I don't understand.
It's all very simple (Note:this is related to Newton's 3rd law).

Suppose have two particles which I'll label A and B. Perhaps they're both electrons, both protons or one electron and one proton. Coulomb's Law, derived from experimentation by Coulomb, shows that the force between any two of those particles is equal in magnitude but opposite in direction. The force on particle A due to particle B,


FAB = kqAqB nAB/r2

nAB is a unit vector that points from particle A to particle B = FAB/ |FAB|

Also

FBA = kqAqB nBA/r2

nBA is a unit vector that points from particle A to particle B = FBA/ |FBA|

In order for the directions of the forces to point in the correct direction the signs of the charge on the two particles has to be opposite. The sign convention which determined which charge was positive and which was negative was decided by Benjamin Franklin
http://www.austincc.edu/wkibbe/truth.htm

What is K ?  I think I can read that formula except what K is
 

Offline evan_au

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #12 on: 19/04/2016 22:26:22 »
Quote
If I start with -14.6 billion years and add +14.6 billion years, I get 0?
Yes, you might do an addition like this if you define "the Sun turning into a white dwarf" as your zero reference point.

Bear in mind that how you measure time depends very much on your frame of reference, and maintaining a constant frame of reference over very long periods of time is a challenge!
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #13 on: 19/04/2016 23:04:12 »
Quote from: Thebox
What is K ?  I think I can read that formula except what K is
k is known as Coulomb's constant. It's defined in terms of the permittivity of free space = epsilon0.

k = 1/(4*pi*epsilon0)

For detail please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb%27s_law
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #14 on: 20/04/2016 20:17:19 »
Quote from: Thebox
What is K ?  I think I can read that formula except what K is
k is known as Coulomb's constant. It's defined in terms of the permittivity of free space = epsilon0.

k = 1/(4*pi*epsilon0)

For detail please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb%27s_law

Thank you for explaining k Pete. 


So does

FAB=ma   if A is the Earth and B is an object at rest mass in the inertial reference frame of the Earth?
« Last Edit: 20/04/2016 21:30:15 by Thebox »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #15 on: 21/04/2016 15:25:20 »
Quote from: Thebox
Thank you for explaining k Pete. 
You're quite welcome.
Quote from: Thebox
So does

FAB=ma ...
The law F = ma determines how a particle of mass m will respond to a force F. BTW - You left out the subscripts on the right hand side.

Quote from: Thebox
   if A is the Earth and B is an object at rest mass in the inertial reference frame of the Earth?
The subscript notation is tricky. The first subscript "A" refers to the body that causes the force and "B" is the body that reacts to the force. Therefore FAB is the force on B due to A. So in this case you got it right with the exception that you left out the subscripts on m and a.

I suggest that you take a look over the page I created on the Laws of Electrodynamics at:
http://www.newenglandphysics.org/physics_world/em/laws_of_electrodynamics.htm

 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #16 on: 21/04/2016 20:41:53 »
Quote from: Thebox
Thank you for explaining k Pete. 
You're quite welcome.
Quote from: Thebox
So does

FAB=ma ...
The law F = ma determines how a particle of mass m will respond to a force F. BTW - You left out the subscripts on the right hand side.

Quote from: Thebox
   if A is the Earth and B is an object at rest mass in the inertial reference frame of the Earth?
The subscript notation is tricky. The first subscript "A" refers to the body that causes the force and "B" is the body that reacts to the force. Therefore FAB is the force on B due to A. So in this case you got it right with the exception that you left out the subscripts on m and a.

I suggest that you take a look over the page I created on the Laws of Electrodynamics at:
http://www.newenglandphysics.org/physics_world/em/laws_of_electrodynamics.htm

By subscripts , do you mean the vector ng?

FAB=manGB?

Like that?

And thank you for a link , I have read so far and have  a question.


''When either a rubber rod or a glass rod is rubbed with a particular material it will become “electrified” in that it will attract small bits of paper or cloth. ''

If we rub a balloons surface it creates charge which is electrons, which are negative in charge? 
If we rubbed a second balloon creating like wise charge , the balloons repel each other a positive direction?

Why is the electron stated a negative when   it does things positive?  I heard somewhere that the Proton and Electron were wrongly labelled the wrong way around when talking charges and the Electron is really the positive?



« Last Edit: 21/04/2016 20:57:35 by Thebox »
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #17 on: 22/04/2016 13:46:20 »
If we rub a balloons surface it creates charge which is electrons, which are negative in charge? 
If we rubbed a second balloon creating like wise charge , the balloons repel each other a positive direction?
If the 2 balloons are free to move they will repel each other. One goes one direction the other the opposite direction. You might say one goes positive direction the other negative. Which direction you call positive or negative doesn't matter.

Why is the electron stated a negative when   it does things positive?
Convention. Early on folks had to call them one or the other and just chose. It doesn't matter which way round as long as everyone - including you - uses the same convention. There is no absolute positive or negative in this case.

I heard somewhere that the Proton and Electron were wrongly labelled the wrong way around when talking charges and the Electron is really the positive?
This is a myth brought about because some people get confused between electron flow and charge flow. Charge can be negative or positive, electrons just negative.

PS, thank you for sticking to the topic
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #18 on: 22/04/2016 16:15:07 »
electrons just negative.

PS, thank you for sticking to the topic


So you are saying that electrons are just negative, negative what if not charge?


 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #19 on: 22/04/2016 17:11:27 »

So you are saying that electrons are just negative, negative what if not charge?
Yes negative charge.
What I am saying is that you can have positive or negative charges, but electrons only have negative charge.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #20 on: 22/04/2016 18:33:38 »

So you are saying that electrons are just negative, negative what if not charge?
Yes negative charge.
What I am saying is that you can have positive or negative charges, but electrons only have negative charge.

Ok, so if the electron is a negative charge then that makes the proton a positive charge?

 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #21 on: 22/04/2016 18:53:36 »

So you are saying that electrons are just negative, negative what if not charge?
Yes negative charge.
What I am saying is that you can have positive or negative charges, but electrons only have negative charge.

Ok, so if the electron is a negative charge then that makes the proton a positive charge?

Correct. We can determine experimentally that protons and electrons have opposite charge, so if we define the electron as having negative charge (as is the current convention) then proton must have positive charge.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #22 on: 22/04/2016 19:26:05 »


Correct. We can determine experimentally that protons and electrons have opposite charge, so if we define the electron as having negative charge (as is the current convention) then proton must have positive charge.

Ok , and likewise charges repel?   

opposite charges attract?


The electrons of the Earth are attracted to the Protons of the Sun?

The electrons of the Sun are attracted to the Protons of the Earth?


The electrons of the sun repel the electrons of the earth?

The Protons of the Sun repel the protons of the earth?


would


FG=nAB=(-=+m1)=(-=+m2)=0?



« Last Edit: 22/04/2016 19:40:05 by Thebox »
 

Offline chiralSPO

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #23 on: 22/04/2016 19:37:43 »


Correct. We can determine experimentally that protons and electrons have opposite charge, so if we define the electron as having negative charge (as is the current convention) then proton must have positive charge.

Ok , and likewise charges repel?   

opposite charges attract?


The electrons of the Earth are attracted to the Protons of the Sun?

The electrons of the Sun are attracted to the Protons of the Earth?


The electrons of the sun repel the electrons of the earth?

The Protons of the Sun repel the protons of the earth?

Yes to all.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #24 on: 22/04/2016 19:40:42 »


Correct. We can determine experimentally that protons and electrons have opposite charge, so if we define the electron as having negative charge (as is the current convention) then proton must have positive charge.

Ok , and likewise charges repel?   

opposite charges attract?


The electrons of the Earth are attracted to the Protons of the Sun?

The electrons of the Sun are attracted to the Protons of the Earth?


The electrons of the sun repel the electrons of the earth?

The Protons of the Sun repel the protons of the earth?

Yes to all.

would


FG=nAB=(-=+m1)=(-=+m2)=0?
 

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Re: Is negative attracted to negative?
« Reply #24 on: 22/04/2016 19:40:42 »

 

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