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Author Topic: How can so many things occupy space at the same time?  (Read 1242 times)

Offline Thebox

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cbmr, emr, particles, atoms, gases, muons, neutrinos, etc etc, how can they all occupy/pass through  space at the same time, are they interwoven? 

I observe a clarity whole of space that contains big objects, I do not observe soup space .
« Last Edit: 25/04/2016 15:08:04 by Thebox »


 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: How can so many things occupy space at the same time?
« Reply #1 on: 25/04/2016 15:58:39 »
I observe a clarity whole of space that contains big objects, I do not observe soup space .
that's because you can't see radio waves, UV, muons etc.
You can't see oxygen atoms either, but if they weren't there neither would you.
Most of these things pass through the empty space between atoms - if they happen to hit, usually bounce off, or for EMR pass through each other.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: How can so many things occupy space at the same time?
« Reply #2 on: 25/04/2016 18:01:21 »
Even the stuff is mostly space. The radius of a proton is about  10-15m, so the nucleus, where nearly all the mass resides, occupies less than a trillionth of the volume of an atom. And most of the universe contains almost no atoms.
 

Offline agyejy

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Re: How can so many things occupy space at the same time?
« Reply #3 on: 25/04/2016 23:58:39 »
What's really going to blow your mind is the spin up and spin down electrons that co-occupy atomic orbitals. The spatial part of the spin up and spin down electron in any given atomic orbital are identical and the violation of Bell's inequalities (no local hidden variables) along with observations of atomic orbital charge distributions and how the electrons behave tells us that the electron is everywhere that the spatial wavefunction is non-zero at the same time. Thus the two electrons that occupy a single atomic orbital occupy exactly the same space (in the absence of any external fields).

It turns out that the spatial part of all atomic orbitals interpenetrate all other atomic orbitals to some degree (some more than others). Thus there is no electron bound to a multi-electron atom that doesn't occupy some of the space of the other electrons bound to that atom.

In fact it gets even worse when you acknowledge that electrons are indistinguishable from other electrons so you can't even assign any given electron to a specific orbital. The impact of this is that the electrons obey Fermi statistics which means the Pauli exclusion principle prevents two electrons with the same spin from being in the same atomic orbital but opposite spins are ok. In some very real physical sense the electrons bound to an a multi-electron atom aren't actually in sedately sitting in an assigned and well defined atomic orbital. One way to think about it is that the electrons are continually swapping places and this swapping results in a so called exchange energy which has observable effects on the measured values of the energy of the atomic orbitals. So the picture of individual electrons being assigned to a given atomic orbital can't be correct since we can't actually predict the observed properties of atoms unless we admit that individual electrons cannot be assigned to a single orbital.

Our classical world is actually the exception not the rule (which it turns out happens a lot). Basically the only reason we even think that things with an invariant (or rest) mass can't occupy the same space is that when two macroscopic objects come together the electrons of one object are closer to the electrons of the other object than they are to the protons of that other object. Thus they are repelled slightly more than they are attracted when the two macroscopic objects are brought close enough together (what we would call touching). The  apparent solidity of matter and unwillingness of atoms to pass through each other is nothing but a quirk of electromagnetics and is in no way a fundamental property of matter. If you could somehow turn off the ability of your atoms to interact electromagnetically with the other atoms of the universe while making sure your particles could still interact electromagnetically with each other (to keep you from flying apart) you would find yourself quite rapidly falling towards the center of the Earth as you simply passed through all the other matter around you.

Simply put the notion that things don't like to occupy the same space is a cognitive error forced onto humans by our limited ability to perceive the universe and not some sort of universal truth.
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: How can so many things occupy space at the same time?
« Reply #4 on: 26/04/2016 04:22:32 »
Quote from: Thebox
cbmr, emr, particles, atoms, gases, muons, neutrinos, etc etc, how can they all occupy/pass through  space at the same time, are they interwoven? 
This is an unclear question. Are you asking about how they can be at the same point in space at the same time? If so then why do you think that they wouldn't they be able to? You appear to be basing what happens on a microscopic scale by your experiences on the macroscopic scale. There is no reason to assume that the two are commensurable as you're doing here.
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: How can so many things occupy space at the same time?
« Reply #5 on: 26/04/2016 19:34:08 »

that's because you can't see radio waves, UV, muons etc.
You can't see oxygen atoms either, but if they weren't there neither would you.
Most of these things pass through the empty space between atoms - if they happen to hit, usually bounce off, or for EMR pass through each other.

Indeed they are clearly not a part of the visible spectrum, they are ''invisible'' to the human eye. So how do these things differ from seen objects such as a red settee?   

Am I seeing the red settee in it's exact location ? 


Is the space between my eyes and the settee invisible?

This empty space you mention, what is the polarity of this space?


« Last Edit: 26/04/2016 19:44:03 by Thebox »
 

Offline Thebox

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Re: How can so many things occupy space at the same time?
« Reply #6 on: 26/04/2016 19:38:40 »
You appear to be basing what happens on a microscopic scale by your experiences on the macroscopic scale.


Yes Pete, the macroscopic scale things are made of the same microscopic things, it matters not .   I look at the earth as if one big atom with an electron shell  and a dynamo core.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: How can so many things occupy space at the same time?
« Reply #7 on: 26/04/2016 23:08:37 »
Pity. A lychee would be a more accurate model. But who cares about accuracy in a science forum? Tell us abut the fairies.
 

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Re: How can so many things occupy space at the same time?
« Reply #7 on: 26/04/2016 23:08:37 »

 

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