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Author Topic: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?  (Read 13012 times)

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #50 on: 08/05/2016 10:49:07 »
We have now to show that the properties of the electromagnetic medium are identical with those of the luminiferous medium."
So please do so. Just give us the two numbers I asked for, and we might believe you. Or are you a priest, politican or philosopher, and therefore incapable of answering any factual question?
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #51 on: 08/05/2016 11:19:51 »
This was also common knowledge to Maxwell and his contemporaries so it is hardly surprising that he used c (celerity) for the speed of light, assuming it was carried on a medium (the luminiferous aether) and its speed would vary with the motion of the aether relative to the observer.

This is very different to the vacuum referred to by Laughlin, and most physicists would abhor his use of the term aether for vacuum. In Laughlin's aether there is not much you would recognise other than the name, it is not dark matter, matter doesn't displace it, the speed of light does not vary relative to its motion, in fact it is not a medium in the classical sense. It also obeys the rules of Special Relativity, so from now on any mention of relativity is SR or GR.
We discussed this and virtual particles last year in another forum, so those members here will be familiar with the concepts.

Both Maxwell and Laughlin are referring to the same 'stuff'. They are both referring to the relativistic aether. Everything is with respect to the state of the aether in which it exists, including the rate at which an atomic clock ticks which is used to determine the speed of light. This is why the speed of light is always determined to be 'c'. That's what makes it relativistic.

What you mistake for virtual particles popping into and out of existence out of nothing is the chaotic nature of the aether.

The vacuum energy is the chaotic nature of the aether.

It is the chaotic nature of the aether which causes the Casimir effect. The following is a water wave analogy of the Casimir effect which is analogous to the chaotic nature of the aether.

NON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION by LOUIS DE BROGLIE

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Since 1954, when this passage was written, I have come to support wholeheartedly an hypothesis proposed by Bohm and Vigier. According to this hypothesis, the random perturbations to which the particle would be constantly subjected, and which would have the probability of presence in terms of [the wave-function wave], arise from the interaction of the particle with a “subquantic medium” which escapes our observation and is entirely chaotic, and which is everywhere present in what we call “empty space”.

The “subquantic medium” is the aether.

Fluid mechanics suggests alternative to quantum orthodoxy

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The fluidic pilot-wave system is also chaotic. It’s impossible to measure a bouncing droplet’s position accurately enough to predict its trajectory very far into the future. But in a recent series of papers, Bush, MIT professor of applied mathematics Ruben Rosales, and graduate students Anand Oza and Dan Harris applied their pilot-wave theory to show how chaotic pilot-wave dynamics leads to the quantumlike statistics observed in their experiments.

A “fluidic pilot-wave system” is the aether.

‘When Fluid Dynamics Mimic Quantum Mechanics’

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130729111934.htm

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If you have a system that is deterministic and is what we call in the business ‘chaotic,’ or sensitive to initial conditions, sensitive to perturbations, then it can behave probabilistically,” Milewski continues. “Experiments like this weren’t available to the giants of quantum mechanics. They also didn’t know anything about chaos. Suppose these guys — who were puzzled by why the world behaves in this strange probabilistic way — actually had access to experiments like this and had the knowledge of chaos, would they have come up with an equivalent, deterministic theory of quantum mechanics, which is not the current one? That’s what I find exciting from the quantum perspective.

What waves in a double slit experiment is the aether.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 11:25:39 by stacyjones »
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #52 on: 08/05/2016 11:24:06 »
So please do so. Just give us the two numbers I asked for, and we might believe you. Or are you a priest, politican or philosopher, and therefore incapable of answering any factual question?

When Maxwell said "we will show" he is referring to himself. He is saying he will show how the electromagnetic medium and the luminiferous medium are one in the same.

When Maxwell refers to the "luminiferous medium" you do realize he is referring to the aether, correct?
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 11:27:25 by stacyjones »
 

Offline PmbPhy

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #53 on: 08/05/2016 17:33:18 »
Quote from: stacyjones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories#Quantum_vacuum
So what? That contributes nothing in a discussion of the existence of the Luminiferous aether. Such a thing does not exist. What you lack in knowledge is the fact that an undetectable thing has no place in physics because its not a falsifiable concept and such concepts can play no role in the scientific method. Have you never studied the philosophy of science?
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #54 on: 08/05/2016 19:28:52 »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories#Quantum_vacuum

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Robert B. Laughlin, Nobel Laureate in Physics, endowed chair in physics, Stanford University, had this to say about ether in contemporary theoretical physics:
The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether. But we do not call it this because it is taboo.
 

Offline arcmetal

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #55 on: 08/05/2016 19:40:01 »

Quote
Robert B. Laughlin, Nobel Laureate in Physics, endowed chair in physics, Stanford University, had this to say about ether in contemporary theoretical physics:
It is ironic that Einstein's most creative work, the general theory of relativity, should boil down to conceptualizing space as a medium when his original premise [in special relativity] was that no such medium existed [..] The word 'ether' has extremely negative connotations in theoretical physics because of its past association with opposition to relativity. This is unfortunate because, stripped of these connotations, it rather nicely captures the way most physicists actually think about the vacuum. . . . Relativity actually says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of matter pervading the universe, only that any such matter must have relativistic symmetry. [..] It turns out that such matter exists. About the time relativity was becoming accepted, studies of radioactivity began showing that the empty vacuum of space had spectroscopic structure similar to that of ordinary quantum solids and fluids. Subsequent studies with large particle accelerators have now led us to understand that space is more like a piece of window glass than ideal Newtonian emptiness. It is filled with 'stuff' that is normally transparent but can be made visible by hitting it sufficiently hard to knock out a part. The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether. But we do not call it this because it is taboo.
.

As you can see, most physicists (other than Laughlin and a few others) don't use the term aether for the very reason that people will confuse it with luminiferous aether as you have done.

I have always found this concept extremely silly.

Consider the use of the term "water" for the complex molecule of H2O.  It is an ancient term which at one time was considered an element.  Except that today we know that it is not an element, but rather it consists of a molecule composed of two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom.  In its liquid form it can contain ions and sometimes other impurities.... I can go on, but my point is that we should be using its more modern name: "Dihydrogen Monoxide", instead of the older more taboo term "water" so that people don't confuse it with its ancient elemental form.


Things tend to follow a cycle of nonsense when you introduce demagoguery into the path of people searching for answers.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 19:44:01 by arcmetal »
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #56 on: 08/05/2016 20:01:30 »
You can label it whatever you want. 'Empty' space has mass which is displaced by matter.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #57 on: 08/05/2016 21:29:26 »
You can label it whatever you want. 'Empty' space has mass which is displaced by matter.

Please tell us at least the density of this mass. Every time I measure it, I get zero.
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #58 on: 08/05/2016 21:45:14 »
Please tell us at least the density of this mass. Every time I measure it, I get zero.

'Quantum aether and an invariant Planck scale'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.3753

"this version of aether may have some bearing on the abundance of Dark Matter and Dark Energy in our universe."

"However, as being argued here, if there is an invariant scale, one may also consider it as an upper cut-off Λ (with or without an invariant lower cut-off), and then for the choice N =
√aπ/Λ, and N = (3mπ/Λ3 1/2 for Λ & m and Λ ≪ m respectively (again, m being the mass of the aether quanta, or that of its fundamental constituents, if thought of as a fluid) the
integral in (2), which go as Λ2 and Λ3/m in these limits, is finite"

Please tell us how, "The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether" is interpreted to mean there is no such thing as an ether.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #59 on: 08/05/2016 22:29:33 »
Just as soon as you answer my very simple question. You repeatedly assert that the aether has mass, and I ask you "how much". You say it supports waves, and I ask you for its elastic modulus.

If you don't answer within 48 hours I may lock this topic and others associated with the subject. This is, after all, a science forum, and real science involves numbers, not handwaving.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 22:31:41 by alancalverd »
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #60 on: 08/05/2016 22:47:40 »
'From the Newton's laws to motions of the fluid and superfluid vacuum: vortex tubes, rings, and others'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1403.3900

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"This medium, called also the aether, has mass and is populated by the particles of matter which exist in it and move through it"

... and displace it.

'EPR program: a local interpretation of QM'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1412.5612

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"Wave particle duality is described as the compound system of point particle plus accompanying wave (in the æther)."

'Null Aether Theory: pp-Wave and AdS Wave Solutions'
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1604.02266v2.pdf

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Among such models are vector-tensor theories with preferred direction established at every point of spacetime by a fixed-norm vector field. The dynamical vector field defined in this way is referred to as the aether. In this work, we study plane wave metrics in such a theory ... The field equations reduce to two coupled scalar field equations and one of the scalar fields represents the massive spin-0 aether field.
« Last Edit: 08/05/2016 23:12:19 by stacyjones »
 

Offline arcmetal

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #61 on: 09/05/2016 01:16:24 »
Just as soon as you answer my very simple question. You repeatedly assert that the aether has mass, and I ask you "how much". You say it supports waves, and I ask you for its elastic modulus.

Since the ether is probably a superfluid it would make more sense to find its bulk modulus rather than the elastic modulus. I suspect the people studying superfluid vacuum theory would have decent information on this.  Or, since the folks studying condensed matter have found transmission of transverse waves in their superfluid helium they may also have respective models of the properties you seek.
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #62 on: 09/05/2016 04:32:51 »
Since the ether is probably a superfluid it would make more sense to find its bulk modulus rather than the elastic modulus. I suspect the people studying superfluid vacuum theory would have decent information on this.  Or, since the folks studying condensed matter have found transmission of transverse waves in their superfluid helium they may also have respective models of the properties you seek.

'Singular-Turbulent Structure Formation in the Universe and the Essence of Dark Matter I. Unified model for dark matter and quintessence'
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0610135

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"Superfluid dark matter is reminiscent of the aether and modeling the universe using superfluid aether is compatible."
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #63 on: 09/05/2016 04:51:46 »
'Derivation of the Maxwell's Equations Based on a Continuum Mechanical Model of Vacuum and a Singularity Model of Electric Charges'
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0609027

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We speculate that the universe may be filled with a visco-elastic continuum which may be called aether. Thus, the Maxwell’s equations in vacuum are derived by methods of continuum mechanics based on a continuum mechanical model of vacuum and a singularity model of electric charges.
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #64 on: 09/05/2016 04:55:04 »
'Frame Indifferent Formulation of Maxwell's Elastic Fluid and the Rational Continuum Mechanics of the Electromagnetic Field'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1102.2930v2

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We show that the linearized equations of the incompressible elastic medium admit a ‘Maxwell form’ in which the shear component of the stress vector plays the role of the electric field, and the vorticity plays the role of the magnetic field. Conversely, the set of dynamic Maxwell equations are strict mathematical corollaries from the governing equations of the incompressible elastic medium. This suggests that the nature of ‘electromagnetic field’ may actually be related to an elastic continuous medium
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #65 on: 09/05/2016 04:58:57 »
'Théorie des champs des contraintes et déformations en relativité générale et expansion cosmologique: Theory of stress and strain fields in general relativity and cosmological expansion'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1209.0611v2

Quote
In this article we propose to add stress-energy tensor to the Einstein equations, assuming that the matter-energy and the metric space-time is nothing but a continuous medium with some elastic properties. We first give a general expression of the stress tensor which is linearly related to the strain tensor. Then, we give the particular expression of the stress tensor for a spatially homnogeneous and isotropic cosmological medium. After that we derive the modified Friedmann equations. In first approximation, we end up with the usual term Λgμν , where the cosmological constant Λ=Kε is related with the bulk modulus K and the relative variation of volume (dilatation). Then we derive corrections to the standard model in second approximation, which depend on these two new parameters.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #66 on: 09/05/2016 08:32:16 »
Since the ether is probably a superfluid it would make more sense to find its bulk modulus rather than the elastic modulus.
OK, let's have it. Can't be difficult to calculate if you know the density, which SJ claims, and the speed of light, which we all know.
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #67 on: 09/05/2016 11:39:26 »
OK, let's have it. Can't be difficult to calculate if you know the density, which SJ claims, and the speed of light, which we all know.

'Théorie des champs des contraintes et déformations en relativité générale et expansion cosmologique: Theory of stress and strain fields in general relativity and cosmological expansion'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1209.0611v2

Quote
In this article we propose to add stress-energy tensor to the Einstein equations, assuming that the matter-energy and the metric space-time is nothing but a continuous medium with some elastic properties. We first give a general expression of the stress tensor which is linearly related to the strain tensor. Then, we give the particular expression of the stress tensor for a spatially homnogeneous and isotropic cosmological medium. After that we derive the modified Friedmann equations. In first approximation, we end up with the usual term Λgμν , where the cosmological constant Λ=Kε is related with the bulk modulus K and the relative variation of volume (dilatation). Then we derive corrections to the standard model in second approximation, which depend on these two new parameters.
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #68 on: 09/05/2016 17:24:03 »
'The Mechanics of Spacetime - A Solid Mechanics Perspective on the Theory of General Relativity'
http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.07655v1

Quote
We present an elastic constitutive model of General Relativity where we identify the vacuum of three-dimensional space with a Cosmic Fabric embedded in four-dimensional spacetime and having a small thickness along the time dimension. We show a correspondence between the gravitational phenomena described by General Relativity and the kinematic and kinetic properties of the Cosmic Fabric. We propose, in agreement with modern cosmological observations (Collier, 2012; Perlmutter et al., 1999; Riess et al., 1998) and with theoretical results from Quantum Field Theory (Rugh and Zinkernagel, 2002), that the space vacuum is really not a vacuum in the purest sense but is a Cosmic Fabric that has energy density and as such mass density. We further propose that the Cosmic Fabric deforms due to matter in space, which acts as inclusions, in a manner analogous to the deformation of a conventional thin plate (Efrati et al., 2008). By introducing a constitutive model for General Relativity, we lay the groundwork for subsequently applying Solid Mechanics concepts to Cosmology. In particular, we show that strain along the time dimension manifests as a gravitational potential and contraction along the time dimension as gravitational time dilation. By identifying the action integral based on the elastic energy density of the Cosmic Fabric with the Hilbert-Einstein action integral, we derive an expression for the Cosmic Fabric's elastic modulus in terms of its thickness. Assuming a thickness about a Planck's length, we calculate the elastic modulus and density to be about 10113Nm−2, and 1096kgm−3, respectively.
 

Offline alancalverd

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #69 on: 09/05/2016 17:57:37 »
Thank you.

Using those figures we can calculate the speed of light as 3.04 meters/second, only a factor of 100,000,000 too low.

And the density of 1096 kg/cubic meter is slightly greater than that of water, as against the measured value of zero.

I think that ends this correspondence.
 

Offline Colin2B

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #70 on: 09/05/2016 18:01:39 »
Consider the use of the term "water" for the complex molecule of H2O.  It is an ancient term which at one time was considered an element.  Except that today we know that it is not an element, but rather it consists of a molecule composed of two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom.  In its liquid form it can contain ions and sometimes other impurities.... I can go on, but my point is that we should be using its more modern name: "Dihydrogen Monoxide", instead of the older more taboo term "water" so that people don't confuse it with its ancient elemental form.


Things tend to follow a cycle of nonsense when you introduce demagoguery into the path of people searching for answers.

Ok, we are getting close to understanding this naming issue. I did explain why this is so, but perhaps it was not clear enough. I'll give another try.

I agree, what you call a medium doesn't change its properties. However, if you use the same word to describe mediums with different properties you create confusion.

I am very happy to use the ancient term water to describe the medium H2O, but I refuse to reuse it to describe H2SO4.

Tools and weapons used to be made of bronze, today we use high speed steel, I refuse to use the ancient term for a tool medium for HSS. They are different.

If you must use the word aether you have to differentiate them. You could call one luminiferous aether and the other vacuum aether, or even better embed the properties in the name eg nonrelativistic aether and relativistic aether. Then I personally would have no problem with that, but others might say that it could still cause confusion.


SJ
The luminiferous aether that Maxwell knew was a theoretical nonrelativistic aether, it was defined and described as such. The expected light to behave in the same way as sound behaves in air, hence the controversy at the time. That was the reason for Michelson Morley experiment, to detect a change in the speed of light due to the motion of an observer through the aether.
https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/philosop/ether.htm
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #71 on: 09/05/2016 18:21:14 »
Thank you.

Using those figures we can calculate the speed of light as 3.04 meters/second, only a factor of 100,000,000 too low.

And the density of 1096 kg/cubic meter is slightly greater than that of water, as against the measured value of zero.

I think that ends this correspondence.

Quote
In the above expressions, ℏ is the reduced Planck constant, 𝐺 is the gravitational constant, and 𝑐 is the speed of light. The computation of the density 𝜌 of the Cosmic Fabric uses the formula for the shear wave speed 𝑐 = √𝜇⁄𝜌 and the fact that shear waves in the Fabric propagate at the speed of light (see §4.6).
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #72 on: 09/05/2016 18:26:48 »
SJ
The luminiferous aether that Maxwell knew was a theoretical nonrelativistic aether, it was defined and described as such. The expected light to behave in the same way as sound behaves in air, hence the controversy at the time. That was the reason for Michelson Morley experiment, to detect a change in the speed of light due to the motion of an observer through the aether.
https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/philosop/ether.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories#Quantum_vacuum

Quote
Robert B. Laughlin, Nobel Laureate in Physics, endowed chair in physics, Stanford University, had this to say about ether in contemporary theoretical physics:
The modern concept of the vacuum of space, confirmed every day by experiment, is a relativistic ether. But we do not call it this because it is taboo.

The reason for the near null result of the MMX experiment is the relativistic nature of the aether.


'NASA's Gravity Probe B Confirms Two Einstein Space-Time Theories'
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/gpb/gpb_results.html

Quote
"Imagine the Earth as if it were immersed in honey. As the planet rotates, the honey around it would swirl, and it's the same with space and time," said Francis Everitt, GP-B principal investigator at Stanford University.

Honey has mass and so does the aether. The 'swirl' is the state of displacement of the aether. The reason for the near-null MMX result is due to the state of the aether being determined by its connections with the Earth and the state of the aether in neighboring places.
 

Offline jeffreyH

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #73 on: 09/05/2016 21:46:31 »
The swirl of honey may be an apt representation of the cognitive ability of stacyjones' mind to grasp the errors in logic.
 

Offline stacyjones

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Re: What makes the idea of an aether so attractive?
« Reply #74 on: 09/05/2016 21:54:23 »
The swirl is the state of displacement of the aether.
 

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