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Author Topic: Does consciousness exist after death?  (Read 11103 times)

Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #125 on: 06/07/2016 12:30:16 »
I regret that I expressed the types of memory in terms so vague. As memory in an absolute sense I mean declarative memory. As other coherent memories I mean procedural and short-term memories.

I hope that this will help making it less nonsensical.
OK thanks, that clarifies your meaning. It still doesn't make sense to me though; clearly, declarative memories can't form until the child has developed a coherent perceptual model of the world with which they can be associated, and procedural memories can't form until coherent proprioceptive feedback and control is established. To say that, "It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear." seems unrelated and nonsensical - a foetus has no memories to begin with, and a developing child will acquire memories as and when its faculties are sufficiently developed to support them. It's true that childhood development after birth is accompanied by large-scale synaptic pruning, which continues into puberty - one could say that the brain's functional architecture is as much 'carved' out of excess connectivity as it is established with new connectivity, just as its functioning involves the suppression of neural circuits as much as it involves excitation...
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #126 on: 06/07/2016 12:41:18 »
What you post make perfect sense to me and I am baffled by that hurtful comment to a valuable interesting member like you...
It wasn't intended to be hurtful, but an honest response that I couldn't make sense of his post.

Since Kasparovitch's post makes perfect sense to you, and I'm still in the dark as to just what he meant, perhaps you can explain it to me? I'd appreciate that.

Incidentally, I gave my (negative) opinion on the video link you posted; what did you think of the one I posted for you?
 

Offline kasparovitch

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #127 on: 06/07/2016 13:36:24 »
I regret that I expressed the types of memory in terms so vague. As memory in an absolute sense I mean declarative memory. As other coherent memories I mean procedural and short-term memories.

I hope that this will help making it less nonsensical.
OK thanks, that clarifies your meaning. It still doesn't make sense to me though; clearly, declarative memories can't form until the child has developed a coherent perceptual model of the world with which they can be associated, and procedural memories can't form until coherent proprioceptive feedback and control is established. To say that, "It is widely known that at some time during growth of the baby, all memories disappear." seems unrelated and nonsensical - a foetus has no memories to begin with, and a developing child will acquire memories as and when its faculties are sufficiently developed to support them. It's true that childhood development after birth is accompanied by large-scale synaptic pruning, which continues into puberty - one could say that the brain's functional architecture is as much 'carved' out of excess connectivity as it is established with new connectivity, just as its functioning involves the suppression of neural circuits as much as it involves excitation...

I'm happy that things are more clear now.

I'll study the subject better so that I may offer a more consistent opinion.

I'm not so sure fetuses don't have memories. They must have some form of memory, not declarative for sure, as it is demonstrated that they learn their mother's voice in utero and can recognize it among many voices after birth.

I'll try to define at what time time former memories are removed. My oldest memory I can date is from the time I was 2Y10M, but I have some more memories which I believe they are a few months earlier but can't date them for sure. Perhaps some day I'll be able to date them as they happened at a time I lived with my grandmother and the clues to date them must be in the letters between my mother and her, which are kept inaccessible by my mother.

For the subject in topic, my opinion is that consciousness survival after death is a philosophical matter and thus can never be definitively answered, as there is no empirical way to gather any evidence on it. The only thing that can be proved is the OBE, which didn't happen so far, altough it was tried by the AWARE study, and is still running to the best of my knowledge. Further, consciousness has never been defined scientifically and not even an algorithm of it has ever been created so that there's evidence consciousness depends on nothing else but matter, that is atoms. How did such things escape so many intelligent people for such a long time is a mystery, I think, more at a time people could trace the universe back to the big bang. 
« Last Edit: 06/07/2016 13:48:52 by kasparovitch »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #128 on: 06/07/2016 14:18:58 »
I'm not so sure fetuses don't have memories. They must have some form of memory, not declarative for sure, as it is demonstrated that they learn their mother's voice in utero and can recognize it among many voices after birth.
I said foetuses don't have memories to begin with, i.e. at implantation they are just an undifferentiated bundle of cells. They can't achieve memory (in the conventional sense) until the CNS is sufficiently developed.
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I'll try to define at what time time former memories are removed.
If you mean that once memories can be formed, they can also be forgotten, I won't argue - for example, the vast majority of episodic memory soon fades beyond conscious access.
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My oldest memory I can date is from the time I was 2Y10M, but I have some more memories which I believe they are a few months earlier but can't date them for sure. Perhaps some day I'll be able to date them as they happened at a time I lived with my grandmother and the clues to date them must be in the letters between my mother and her, which are kept inaccessible by my mother.
Quite a few people report very early memories - including of birth or even earlier - but there's no good evidence that these are more than imaginative confabulations. Memories of the first year are also debatable. The problem is that children are particularly liable to elaborate and incorporate episodic descriptions from family and friends into their own autobiographical memory (adults do it too, but less frequently). So when a parent or relative describes some episode or even shows a photo of those early times, it may be remembered in later years as a subjective experience, with little means to falsify it. I have one or two of those that I was able to check and discovered that they didn't really happen as I remembered them.

Just for interest, and to emphasise the unreliability of memory, particularly episodic memory, here are a few links to articles on the topic:

List of Memory Biases
How Much of Your Memory is True?
Memory Distortion & Invention
False Autobiographical Memories
Seven Sins of Memory
The Memory Doctor
How accurate are Memories of 9/11?
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #129 on: 06/07/2016 15:54:58 »
For the subject in topic, my opinion is that consciousness survival after death is a philosophical matter and thus can never be definitively answered, as there is no empirical way to gather any evidence on it.

It absolutely can be definitively answered.  Once science proves (give it a decade) that consciousness is nothing more than a biological process and can detail the mechanism, it can then be shown quite factually that it would not survive death, since our biological processes pretty much cease upon death.



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The only thing that can be proved is the OBE, which didn't happen so far, altough it was tried by the AWARE study, and is still running to the best of my knowledge.

It is interesting that the most readily available way to give credibility to the scientifically absurd concept of consciousness surviving death; the OBE; has never been proven by a single person to have actually taken place.  But I would argue against it technically being the 'only' thing that can be proved as it relates to consciousness surviving death.  If we think about the concept itself, as far fetched scientifically as it is, if consciousness survived death we're then throwing some new things into play.  There would have to be some new form of self aware energy that existed, or some dimensional gateway that the energy could flow through, or possibly some hidden dimension altogether where the consciousness goes where all laws of physics as we know them cease to exist, or a bunch of other far fetched and absurd sounding things that would be necessary for consciousness after death to be real.  So finding any of these things, proving any of their existences, or even being able to show through theory and scientific calculation etc that these things could exist or the mechanisms for how they'd exist, would all technically be evidence towards the concept of consciousness after death being real.  But there's a reason why such things sound so far fetched and absurd...


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Further, consciousness has never been defined scientifically and not even an algorithm of it has ever been created so that there's evidence consciousness depends on nothing else but matter, that is atoms.

You still make it sound like an algorithm should be so easy.  But first science would need to fully understand what's going on. But even then, the processes might be so utterly complex that we'd still be hard pressed to recreate it via algorithm.  The fact we haven't been able to yet means absolutely nothing.  The brain has had billions of years of evolution behind it.  Has 100 billion neurons worth of processing power behind it, and so many complex calculations and processes involved.  First science would need to fully understand exactly how the mechanism of consciousness works, and only then could they truly get to the task of recreating it via algorithm.  But nothing would be easy about it at all, since we're talking about one of the most complex and wondrous processes that nature, in billions and billions of years, has come up with.  We're not even a century into computing yet.  Be a bit more patient.

And science is getting closer and closer to defining it.  There is much progress that has been made and they've even discovered the consciousness trigger in the brain, which is a good discovery.  In our lifetime it is quite possible that the answer of consciousness will be solved.  And one thing I know for certain, is that it will be shown to be a biological process, same as everything else about us, no magical defies everything we've ever scientifically learned or known thus far having zero evidence to support it goes to some magical fairy kingdom outside our own spacetime after death makes zero sense overall soul required.  Humans love attributing that which they don't understand to 'god'.  But each time, science catches up and shows that there were perfectly reasonable and factual explanations all along.  This will be no different.  And they are getting really close...  Thankfully.

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How did such things escape so many intelligent people for such a long time is a mystery

Not a mystery at all.  In fact, it's rather quite logical.  Cause again, we're talking about the most complex and wondrous process that nature has come up with in all its billions and billions of years, and formed in the most complex brain, with the help of hundreds of billions of neurons doing the processing.  Why would it be a mystery that modern neurology, with only less than a century of time behind it overall, hasn't yet nailed down that most complex and advanced of natures wonders?  I'd say it's actually pretty damn impressive how close they've come in such a short time.  Like I said, they're actually really close to solving it.  But just because they haven't yet, doesn't mean that all of a sudden everything we know in science cannot be real, that there's some other dimension within our own spacetime that we cannot see or access but that every time someone dies their energy suddenly transcends to, that there is this other beyond magical able to retain identity, memories and information type energy that leaves your body to begin with, and that suddenly, upon the ceasing of biological processes, that everything that once required complex networks of memory and neurons is able to be transformed into this magical undetectable energy that can do it all itself and access some dimensional gateway to run amok with all the other balls of magical undetectable energy; while defying everything we've ever learned scientifically as human beings. 

No.  It just means that the answer has not yet been discovered, nothing more, but that the answer will still be one of earthly origin with explanations that reside within our realm of science, logic and understanding, and that the only hurdle is merely time.  But the time will come soon enough.  Long live science!
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #130 on: 06/07/2016 16:35:33 »


The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

Sometimes the Truth is surrounded by a circumference of lies and deception, but even then the Truth remains the Truth unchanged by anything.

Jesus stood before Pontius Pilot who asked him "What is Truth' Not knowing the very essence of Truth Stood in front of him.

Pilot washed his hands and gave up Jesus to the mob, now he has to wash his hands forever in hell!

Alan

I have spoken the truth above.  And nah, pontius is now nothing more than a rotting corpse, and he washed his hands merely at his role in the death of a mortal. But such is now long gone history. But I thought you didn't want to inject religion into this discussion? But I do believe the discussion can have merit.  If you choose to have that discussion on religion, I'd be interested in your answers to the questions on the topic I posted above.  They are quite relevant and logic based. But if you wanna stick merely with the "it's true cause I want it to be" defense I totally would understand. 

Or we can just move along from the religious discussion. I'm ok with whatever. 

(and I would argue that truth is science and reality, the lies and deception religion, and that the truth was standing before pontius, and that truth was that Jesus was but a man)

Pontious still rotting after over 2000 years in the grave, his body is just dust, but his consciousness lives on in hell and that is my opinion like it or not?

Of course according to "what you believe"you are going to follow his example cease to exist and rot just like him.

While your little insignificant life will be forgotten the moment you cease to exist the one you claim to be a mere mortal, will continue on to be the most influential being ever to walk this planet in all of human history, regardless of any religious connection to him, namely the Lord Jesus, who is the most remarkable person to ever live.
« Last Edit: 06/07/2016 16:39:51 by Alan McDougall »
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #131 on: 06/07/2016 17:17:53 »

Pontious still rotting after over 2000 years in the grave, his body is just dust, but his consciousness lives on in hell and that is my opinion like it or not?

Nah, he just be dead.

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Of course according to "what you believe"you are going to follow his example cease to exist and rot just like him.

As will you dude, as will we all.  It sucks to have to accept, but it is what it is.  Our life is but one and our days finite.  My advice is to make the best use of those days you can, enjoy each day the most you can, and help others do the same, as they are the only days they will have as well.

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While your little insignificant life will be forgotten the moment you cease to exist the one you claim to be a mere mortal, will continue on to be the most influential being ever to walk this planet in all of human history, regardless of any religious connection to him, namely the Lord Jesus, who is the most remarkable person to ever live.

Overall, all of our lives are insignificant.  And ultimately, no matter how much influence we have on others even generationally, we and they will all end up eaten by the sun anyway, so in the end, none of it really matters all that much.  But I still choose to make the best life I can, and have inspired and helped hundreds, and when my book comes out (called "The Religion Of Reality", look for it!) I will hopefully reach tens of thousands more, and knowing this is the only life there is, I choose to worry about what matters here, not in some made up realm that doesn't exist or have any bearing on reality.  And Jesus, the mere mortal, might've been one of the most influential figures.  I mean, he was a liar, con artist and egomaniac that suffered from severe delusions of grandeur, but was effective enough at it to fool countless billions, so I guess I'll give him credit there.  But his 'influence' has also been responsible for countless deaths, immeasurable suffering, so much harsh judgment and biases towards others and is one of the biggest stains on humanity as we know it, so I'm not sure his being the greatest influence is exactly a good thing, but I digress.
« Last Edit: 06/07/2016 17:20:33 by IAMREALITY »
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #132 on: 06/07/2016 18:15:34 »
For the subject in topic, my opinion is that consciousness survival after death is a philosophical matter and thus can never be definitively answered, as there is no empirical way to gather any evidence on it. The only thing that can be proved is the OBE, which didn't happen so far, altough it was tried by the AWARE study, and is still running to the best of my knowledge. Further, consciousness has never been defined scientifically and not even an algorithm of it has ever been created so that there's evidence consciousness depends on nothing else but matter, that is atoms. How did such things escape so many intelligent people for such a long time is a mystery, I think, more at a time people could trace the universe back to the big bang.
Philosophically, we can't falsify the survival of consciousness after permanent death, but scientifically, we can declare it false beyond reasonable doubt. When multiple independent lines of evidence suggest it can't happen, and there's no plausible evidence that it does, that's the only rational conclusion. As Sean Carroll says, when you know the rules of chess, it doesn't make you a chess player or allow you to evaluate a chess position, but it does mean you know that if someone suggests that a rook might move diagonally, they're just wrong. Quantum field theory in the Standard Model may not be a complete explanation of the universe, and it doesn't mean we understand the world around us, but we have established the basic physical rules underlying everyday life (protons, neutrons, electrons, the electromagnetic force, and gravitation are all the particles & forces that are relevant at everyday human scales), and they simply don't support the concept of independent consciousness - nor, for that matter, does classical thermodynamics.

There's little doubt that the experience of OBEs does occur, but there is every reason to think that it is an internally generated experience.
 

Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #133 on: 06/07/2016 21:18:06 »

Pontious still rotting after over 2000 years in the grave, his body is just dust, but his consciousness lives on in hell and that is my opinion like it or not?

Nah, he just be dead.

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Of course according to "what you believe"you are going to follow his example cease to exist and rot just like him.

As will you dude, as will we all.  It sucks to have to accept, but it is what it is.  Our life is but one and our days finite.  My advice is to make the best use of those days you can, enjoy each day the most you can, and help others do the same, as they are the only days they will have as well.

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While your little insignificant life will be forgotten the moment you cease to exist the one you claim to be a mere mortal, will continue on to be the most influential being ever to walk this planet in all of human history, regardless of any religious connection to him, namely the Lord Jesus, who is the most remarkable person to ever live.

Overall, all of our lives are insignificant.  And ultimately, no matter how much influence we have on others even generationally, we and they will all end up eaten by the sun anyway, so in the end, none of it really matters all that much.  But I still choose to make the best life I can, and have inspired and helped hundreds, and when my book comes out (called "The Religion Of Reality", look for it!) I will hopefully reach tens of thousands more, and knowing this is the only life there is, I choose to worry about what matters here, not in some made up realm that doesn't exist or have any bearing on reality.  And Jesus, the mere mortal, might've been one of the most influential figures.  I mean, he was a liar, con artist and egomaniac that suffered from severe delusions of grandeur, but was effective enough at it to fool countless billions, so I guess I'll give him credit there.  But his 'influence' has also been responsible for countless deaths, immeasurable suffering, so much harsh judgment and biases towards others and is one of the biggest stains on humanity as we know it, so I'm not sure his being the greatest influence is exactly a good thing, but I digress.

More terminological inexactitudes from you and thank you for mentioning your book so that I can avoid reading it.

And you have returned like a dog to its ? with your persistent insults of "Dude" etc now not just confined to me.

You are a master at digressing so why mention it?
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #134 on: 07/07/2016 00:09:53 »
... And you have returned like a dog to its ? with your persistent insults of "Dude" etc now not just confined to me.
Wait, what? since when did 'dude' change from being cool to being an insult? did I miss that meeting?
 
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Offline Alan McDougall

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #135 on: 07/07/2016 00:39:40 »
... And you have returned like a dog to its ? with your persistent insults of "Dude" etc now not just confined to me.
Wait, what? since when did 'dude' change from being cool to being an insult? did I miss that meeting?

As a 76-year-old man, I find It hIghly and offensive and it is not 'Cool' when the person you speaking to has asked you to stop it, because I find it offense and asked, him to desist.
 

Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #136 on: 07/07/2016 01:08:18 »

As a 76-year-old man, I find It hIghly and offensive and it is not 'Cool' when the person you speaking to has asked you to stop it, because I find it offense and asked, him to desist.

Just for sake of clarity and not for sake of arguing, but I will not change how I freely talk due to what I'd feel to be someone's irrational dislike of it.  There's not a thing offensive about the word, and I will plainly say that if someone finds that there is, that's a problem for them to overcome, not for me to overcome.  I'm not gonna change who I am nor how I choose to talk merely because someone says so, unless what i was saying was truly offensive; which in this case it truly wasn't. This is my only post on the topic I will make.  I will not argue with you on a personal level, and will only debate with you within the context of the thread itself.  I made a quick exception to put this specific issue to rest insofar as I'm concerned.  Thank you. 


« Last Edit: 07/07/2016 01:57:00 by IAMREALITY »
 

Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #137 on: 07/07/2016 05:42:04 »
if a baby die, does his/her consciousness survive?
will it grow as adult of pure consciousness?
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #138 on: 07/07/2016 11:01:13 »
As a 76-year-old man, I find It hIghly and offensive and it is not 'Cool' when the person you speaking to has asked you to stop it, because I find it offense and asked, him to desist.
OK.

Just out of interest, what is it you find offensive about it? It's definitely not an insult among the people I know (mainly retired), so I'm wondering if there's another meaning to the one I know.

p.s. any comment on the video I linked to earlier?
« Last Edit: 07/07/2016 11:04:14 by dlorde »
 

Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #139 on: 10/07/2016 15:39:45 »
Just want to share some philosophical perspective on death.
 
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Offline IAMREALITY

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #140 on: 10/07/2016 16:33:15 »
Just want to share some philosophical perspective on death.

Was that supposed to be merely a box of darkness, meaning that you believe when we die that there's nothing but black, because we're simply, ya know, just like dead and stuff, or is it just a problem with the link or my browser?  If the former, I totally agree. 
 

Offline hamdani yusuf

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #141 on: 10/07/2016 18:03:52 »

Was that supposed to be merely a box of darkness, meaning that you believe when we die that there's nothing but black, because we're simply, ya know, just like dead and stuff, or is it just a problem with the link or my browser?  If the former, I totally agree.
It supposed to link to a youtube video from crash course philosophy channel. It works well in my browser.
 

Offline dlorde

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
« Reply #142 on: 10/07/2016 21:30:58 »
It supposed to link to a youtube video from crash course philosophy channel. It works well in my browser.
Just post the URL: Perspectives on Death
« Last Edit: 10/07/2016 21:45:33 by dlorde »
 

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Re: Does consciousness exist after death?
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